The furthest East working of Swindon steam

[kingdom]

[snip]

The unknown one in this lot is the rumoured WD 2-8-0 that went to the US after the war... it’s identity seems unknown as is it’s destination. Given the German “selected” exported locos became well documented in the US, it’s seems odd it’s fate is both unknown and unmatched to those exports... I think it’s a myth that never happened myself.

 

[snip]

Anyone can fill in any gaps ?

There are some maddening references to the 2-80 and 0-6-0ST 'exchanges' in the War Diary of the War Office Director of Transportation in the national Archives (WO165/106)

 

Dec 1945

Financial authority given to the exchange of 1 x Austerity 2-8-0 and 1 x Austerity 0-6-0ST with USA. Instructions sent to BAOR and British Army Staff Washington to proceed with exchange. [ Austerity 0-6-0ST believed to be 75002 (HE 2851/43) which was last identified as returned from loan to NSM 10/45 . The 2-8-0 may be 79189, of which no trace has been found after it left Holland for Antwerp on 25/1/46 (info from the Late Tony Lambert)]

 

Feb 1946

US agrees to exchange one each of 2-8-0 and 0-6-0T for British version

 

Aug 1946

1 x US 2-8-0 No 3257 & 1 x US 0-6-0T No 4382 to Longmoor ex Continent for instructional purposes

 

So financial permission was given, and the US Army kept their side of the agreement, but there are no other details in the War Diary.  Tony's suggestions for the identities of the two WD locos came from exhaustive elimination of all the locos which had no firm information on their disposal

 

John

[TheSignalEngineer]

The panniers banked the Golden Arrow and other boat trains out of Folkestone towards the end of SE steam and would have gone through Tonbridge to get there.

 

You could always imagine someone forgot to uncouple them and they panted all the way to Victoria....

 

 

 

Seriously, I have the image in my head of one on Ashford shed but no idea where I saw the photo.

SR-allocated Panniers were overhauled at Ashford. 4601 of Dover Marine and 4624 of Weymouth were reported in the erecting shop there in July 1960.

There are records of 4634 and 4672 on shed in 1959 and the Folkestone locos awaiting transfer away after the Kent Coast electrification in 1961.

[adb968008]

There are some maddening references to the 2-80 and 0-6-0ST 'exchanges' in the War Diary of the War Office Director of Transportation in the national Archives (WO165/106)

 

Dec 1945

Financial authority given to the exchange of 1 x Austerity 2-8-0 and 1 x Austerity 0-6-0ST with USA. Instructions sent to BAOR and British Army Staff Washington to proceed with exchange. [ Austerity 0-6-0ST believed to be 75002 (HE 2851/43) which was last identified as returned from loan to NSM 10/45 . The 2-8-0 may be 79189, of which no trace has been found after it left Holland for Antwerp on 25/1/46 (info from the Late Tony Lambert)]

 

Feb 1946

US agrees to exchange one each of 2-8-0 and 0-6-0T for British version

 

Aug 1946

1 x US 2-8-0 No 3257 & 1 x US 0-6-0T No 4382 to Longmoor ex Continent for instructional purposes

 

So financial permission was given, and the US Army kept their side of the agreement, but there are no other details in the War Diary. Tony's suggestions for the identities of the two WD locos came from exhaustive elimination of all the locos which had no firm information on their disposal

 

John

Hmm..

 

The lack of evidence though says quite a lot, there are pictures of the BR19, BR42 and BR52’s in the US, which were taken, naturally to the military railroad in Fort Eustis. Had the WDs gone to the US, no doubt this would be the destination. They weren’t selected at random, they were experimental locos.

 

The German locos were also take to Chicago in 1948 for the worlds fair, the lack of a UK representative there is an omission that could easily have been fulfilled at the same time.

 

The German locos were scrapped in 1952, after being offered back to Germany, whom couldn’t justify the cost of returning them. They were only taken to the US to exploit the technology. They were offered to US builders for inspection, but by all accounts they weren’t interested as the future was already decided to be diesel. I doubt a WD 2-8-0 would have offered much innovation, it certainly didn’t make exhibition worthy. It’s an expense i’d say wasn’t justified, if a swap took place the US probably just passed them on locally.. ie sold them on as dismantled as spares in Europe.

Edited February 14, 2018 by adb968008

[The Stationmaster]

Any more info on this one ?

Beyond Belarus (at the time of War), was Russian 5’ gauge.., Did it have its own wheels, or had the Nazis started rolling imperial measurement new axles for it ? Or did the Nazis regauge captured Russian tracks as they moved towards Moscow ?

 

I understood the Russians captured one in Belarus, west of Minsk but as this border was pre1939 Poland, it would have been safely standard gauge, probably captured at the pre1939 border. After Russia moved Poland’s border westwards they regauged the lines in their stolen/claimed Polish territory to match today’s 5’ gauge to match the Soviet Union. I read the Belarus one was offered back to the British military, but it wasn’t considered worth returning, and was scrapped.

 

(I don’t have the source with me but recall it was Roger Tourret book).

 

The German army definirely re-gauged track eastwards during the Russian campaign although how far east they got I don't know but this helps -

 

https://www.feldgrau.com/WW2-German-State-Railway-Deutsche-Reichsbahn

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Did any ever reach Cambridge?

In terms of working in regular service, 9401 temporarily allocated to Stratford in 1957 got as far as Hertford. Short of water to go any further. (Dick Hardy.)

 

Wasn't a 52xx trialled on empty stock out of KX - something about lifting the sleepers over Harringay flyover?...

As Peter Townend (KX shedmaster) tells it, in précis, '52xx was requested for the job but was not forthcoming'.

[stewartingram]

A bit OT, but can any one clear my mind?

 

Way back, probably in the 70s, I was an avid reader of railway books in the local library (it was free!). I definitely read somewhere of 2 (I think) former GWR tanks being sold to a railway in Norfolk somewhere - possibly one of the lines that eventually came into the M&GN or GER? Now I read this in a period when (a) there was a limited range of rtr locos available (unlike today), (b) there was a much larger range of kits available, © I was financially restrained (ie I couldn't afford it), (d) GW/WR models were popular in RM, & in our club we had a GWR fan but he bored us so we hated GWR. Add all these together, and reading of this sale, sparked an unusual interest in me "wanting one" and the kit was I think available - but © ruled it out. 

What were these locos - does anyone know?

 

Stewart

[Northroader]

Possibly what you’re thinking of are a group of outside cylinder 0-6-0T built for the Cornwall Minerals Railway by Sharp Stewart in 1874. There were originally eighteen built, intended to work as pairs back to back, so no bunkers. Three were returned to Sharps, and nine were taken over by the GWR and rebuilt as conventional 0-6-0ST. (GWR 1392 - 1400) The three retuned to Sharps had received more standard cabs and sold to the Lynn & Fakenham Rly. Another five of the original group had been set aside and also went to Sharps for rebuilding, being sold on to the L & F, where they got fitted out with four wheel tenders, which had already happened to the first three, but they still kept short side tanks. The other engine from the group went to the Colne Valley and Halstead. (Wheel diameter 3’6” for equal wheelbase of 11’)

The L&F went on to become part of the M&GNJR, (no’s.1-3, 11-14, 18) and four were rebuilt to 2-4-0 locos with slightly larger driving wheels, and the side tanks removed. The last of the class went in 1902.

You’ll appreciate that as small outside cylinder engines from an absorbed line, you may have trouble finding a suitable standard GWR loco, perhaps the chassis from a 1366? (3’8” dia. wheels, Wheelbase 5’+6’) The tender was a Sharps four wheel pattern, and there are 3D prints becoming available for the Cambrian and Furness locos which should be ok.

[melmerby]

Didn't the Daily Sport publish a photo of a Dean Goods on the Moon with Elvis at the controls?

 

Keith

[manna]

G'Day Folks

 

There used to be a GWR shed at Peterborough, access via running rights on the LNWR, what was based there I have no idea.

 

manna   

[rodent279]

Didn't the Daily Sport publish a photo of a Dean Goods on the Moon with Elvis at the controls?

 

Keith

Naahh.

 

Everyone knows Elvis was an LNER man.....

[dibber25]

We all seem to have forgotten 4079 Pendennis Castle..

 

It lived 10000 miles from Swindon for 2 decades before it came back. I think that’s the winner, unless anything Swindon went to the Kiribati islands ?

 

Whilst the poster asked about East, West is easier and clearer to answer...

 

Furthest west i’d imagine is 6000 King George V’s 1927 trip to the US.

 

Of all UK Resident std gauge locos wandering overseas the winner has to be Flying Scotsman.. it too went 10000 miles east, but it’s made it 5500 miles west too (san Francisco),

2nd-5th position are probably jointly shared between a humble J52 (Sacramento) and an industrial named Dunrobin as well as a Pacer.. 142 049 and 6100 Royal Scot (all Vancouver). Whilst in rolling stock, 2 ex-lner Gresley fullbrakes are at Universal Studios Los Angeles, and the SR “Churchill” baggage can / Devon Belle observation car (as well as the rest of Scotsman’s train) made it to San Francisco.

 

6th probably 60008 Dwight D Eisenhower, whilst it lives in Green Bay, WI, it did make an event in Kansas ? I recall.

7th place is another industrial Meaford no2 an 0-6-0T that my dad help procure the sale of, with 3 mk1 coaches back in 1971, which started in Michigan, but moved south west to Tennessee before its current location in Kentucky. (Its three coaches are still out there, 1 in Kansas 2 in Michigan).

8th/9th joint would be 60010 and Waddon, at the museum in Montreal.

10th i’m Guessing could be 30053 at Scranton, PA, (started in Vermont) though 6000 KGV could well have gone to Ohio and beaten it..I know it got as far as Philadelphia but that doesn’t make the cut.

11th would probably lie with 6229 Duchess of Hamilton in 1939 in NYC

12th probably 30926 Repton, at Steamtown Vermont, and Cape Breton Canada or possibly the Terrier sold to La Plata Tramway in Buenos Aires Argentina.

13th is i’m Guessing the BR LEV2 railbus is which is still abandoned at a tram museum in Connecticut.

 

The unknown one in this lot is the rumoured WD 2-8-0 that went to the US after the war... it’s identity seems unknown as is it’s destination. Given the German “selected” exported locos became well documented in the US, it’s seems odd it’s fate is both unknown and unmatched to those exports... I think it’s a myth that never happened myself.

 

 

For South..

The Terrier in La Plata probably wins that one.

2nd 4079/The exported RODs and 4472

3rd probably Singapore Hawthorne Leslie 3865 of 1936, which made it to Singapore...and back.

4th the 08’s and class 120’s that we’re exported by BR to Liberia.

5th maybe the KCR WD 2-8-0’s

6th Cuban class 47’s (though the wandering of the Dean Goods in China are unknown)

7th J94’s, WDs 8fs and anything else in North Africa during the war.

8th I’d venture the class 141 pacers sold to Iran.

After that we’re into Europe so it’s hard to guess given the wanderings of EX BR diesels, we have 20’s to Kosovo, shunters in Italy, class 37’s/56/58 in Spain etc..plus WW2 wanderings..

 

North is quite hard given we’re a quite northerly country...

 

1st I’d venture is the sunken locos used as boilers on HMS Erebus and HMS Terror

2nd the WDs in Sweden

3rd HS 4000 in St Petersburg

 

Anyone can fill in any gaps ?

 

If you're doing the furthest West, the Class 142 went to Expo 86 in Vancouver (142 036, I think). It ran between Van and New Westminster but was also reputedly trialled on the BC Rail 'Cariboo Dayliner' service to Lillooet as a potential replacement for RDCs (please don't laugh quite so loud, you'll wake the neighbours!)

The Duke of Sutherland's 0-4-4T Dunrobin went initially to a department store in Victoria, BC. Before it moved to Fort Steele it ran (with its saloon carriage) at least as far as the Niagara Canyon trestle on the E&N main line. 

Both those are further west than either 6000 or 4472 in the States.

When I visited Fort Steele they also had two Mk1 coaches and that must surely be the furthest from home that any MK1s or an other 'ordinary' BR coaches have been. Oops, I'm forgetting the Mk2s that went to New Zealand. 

(CJL)

Edited February 15, 2018 by dibber25

[DCB]

In terms of working in regular service, 9401 temporarily allocated to Stratford in 1957 got as far as Hertford. Short of water to go any further. (Dick Hardy.)

 

As Peter Townend (KX shedmaster) tells it, in précis, '52xx was requested for the job but was not forthcoming'.

Stratford was short of locos so the WR sent a 94XX which was a bit short on water capacity to do N7 turns.

 

KX had issues when a speed limit was imposed on a crossover outside KX which meant the ECS couldn't get a run at the bank.  L1s slipped and the only alternative was B1s which were in short supply.  Now the ER had perfectly good underused 0-8-0Ts of the Q1 class ambling about aimlessly around the Humber, but instead they tried a GC A5 which simply stalled with full gear and full regulator and then requested a 42XX from the GW who told them to get stuffed.  It was a bit sad really that Q1s or ex NER A6 3 cy 4-6-2T mineral locos were not tried and completely crazy that the GN had produced almost ideal locos in around 1906 the Ivatt 0-8-2 Tanks.   Common sense would have suggested raising the speed limit but sadly common sense seldom reached further east than Paddington.

[melmerby]

G'Day Folks

 

There used to be a GWR shed at Peterborough, access via running rights on the LNWR, what was based there I have no idea.

 

manna   

Where did you get that information from?

 

None of my maps, atlases and shed books show any mention of GWR infrastructure in Peterborough.

 

Keith

[adb968008]

If you're doing the furthest West, the Class 142 went to Expo 86 in Vancouver (142 036, I think). It ran between Van and New Westminster but was also reputedly trialled on the BC Rail 'Cariboo Dayliner' service to Lillooet as a potential replacement for RDCs (please don't laugh quite so loud, you'll wake the neighbours!)

The Duke of Sutherland's 0-4-4T Dunrobin went initially to a department store in Victoria, BC. Before it moved to Fort Steele it ran (with its saloon carriage) at least as far as the Niagara Canyon trestle on the E&N main line.

Both those are further west than either 6000 or 4472 in the States.

When I visited Fort Steele they also had two Mk1 coaches and that must surely be the furthest from home that any MK1s or an other 'ordinary' BR coaches have been. Oops, I'm forgetting the Mk2s that went to New Zealand.

(CJL)

Indeed Vancouver is 1 degree further west than San Francisco, so it does push 4472 out of number 1 spot.

Number 1 spot is shared between Dunrobin as mentioned, plus 6100 Royal Scot, plus pacer 142049...

http://www.railforthevalley.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/RftV-001.jpg

I also forgot to mention the replica of a Rocket.. which visited Vancouver in 1986 also.

 

So this puts 1247 The NRM J52 into number 3 spot (unless anyone knows if this was shipped via San Francisco) for its 1991 Railfair in Sacramento.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/rgadsdon/33342780710

 

Back in 1998-9, when I lived local and knew a few people (US visa’s would prevent volunteering, so I was just an enthusiastic regular visitor) at the Sacramento Railroad museum, I know they investigated to get 71000 Duke of Gloucester for the 1999 rail-fair but it wasn’t ready and nothing else was in the frame, I think they tried in 1991 too, but ultimately the UK representative was a narrow gauge loco Gwen, Hunslet 0-4-0t in 1999.

Edited February 15, 2018 by adb968008

[adb968008]

The updated West bound list looks like :

*locations are furthest west known travelled, not necessarily a place of abode.

 

1st-4th 6100 Royal Scot, Dunrobin, Rocket (Replica) and 142 049 (Vancouver)

5. Flying Scotsman (San Francisco)

6. J52 1247 (Sacramento)

7. 60008 Dwight D Eisenhower, whilst it lives in Green Bay, WI, it did make a Trip in 1990 to Abilene, Kansas.

8. Meaford no2 an RSH 0-6-0T (Chattanooga, TN, now in Kentucky).

9. LSWR T3 563 (Toronto)

10/11 joint would be 60010 and Waddon, at the museum in Montreal.

12/13. 30053 at Scranton, PA, (started in Vermont) and BR Lev2 Railbus, though 6000 KGV could well have gone to Ohio and beaten it..I know it got as far as Philadelphia but that doesn’t make the cut.

14. 6000 King George V (at least as far as Philadelphia)

15. 6229 Duchess of Hamilton in 1939 in NYC

16. 30926 Repton, at Steamtown Vermont, and Cape Breton Canada

(16a. Current location BR LEV2 railbus is which is still abandoned at a tram museum in Connecticut, mentioned as joint 12/13).

17/18. 52 Surrey, 57 Thames, Terrier’s sold to La Plata Tramway in Buenos Aires Argentina.

 

Not included here is the Blackpool trams in San Francisco, SR Yeo, Gwen, North Star (Replica) - not std gauge or the WD 2-8-0/J94 theory (no proof they ever reached the US).

Edited February 15, 2018 by adb968008

[Wickham Green]

Didn't the Daily Sport publish a photo of a Dean Goods on the Moon with Elvis at the controls?

 

Keith

........... but was the moon east of Swindon at the time ?

[Wickham Green]

And I bet there were GWR locos at Temple Mills, too, on Cross-London transfer freights. They may also have reached Hither Green.

As we should all remember, Swindon locos were too wide over cylinders for most Southern lines ................... but it was the STEPS that had to be modified before the panniers could operate at Folkestone, even though the juice rail was a few miles away at the time - so Hither Green is unlikely ...................... oddly enough, though, 4610 is often seen in the vicinity on my 1948 layout ( Rule 1 ! ).

[bike2steam]

As we should all remember, Swindon locos were too wide over cylinders for most Southern lines ................... 

Swindon built 80 LMS designed 8F's - now you know why the Western Region had a number of them, 4 allocated to Old Oak for a while.  

[QuoitsPlayer]

Didn't a Grange make it to Huddersfield in 60s by mistake and end up trapped out of gauge having bashed it's way through a tunnel and several platforms?

[rodent279]

The updated West bound list looks like :

*locations are furthest west known travelled, not necessarily a place of abode.

 

1st-4th 6100 Royal Scot, Dunrobin, Rocket (Replica) and 142 049 (Vancouver)

5. Flying Scotsman (San Francisco)

6. J52 1247 (Sacramento)

7. 60008 Dwight D Eisenhower, whilst it lives in Green Bay, WI, it did make a Trip in 1990 to Abilene, Kansas.

8. Meaford no2 an RSH 0-6-0T (Chattanooga, TN, now in Kentucky).

9. LSWR T3 563 (Toronto)

10/11 joint would be 60010 and Waddon, at the museum in Montreal.

12/13. 30053 at Scranton, PA, (started in Vermont) and BR Lev2 Railbus, though 6000 KGV could well have gone to Ohio and beaten it..I know it got as far as Philadelphia but that doesn’t make the cut.

14. 6000 King George V (at least as far as Philadelphia)

15. 6229 Duchess of Hamilton in 1939 in NYC

16. 30926 Repton, at Steamtown Vermont, and Cape Breton Canada

(16a. Current location BR LEV2 railbus is which is still abandoned at a tram museum in Connecticut, mentioned as joint 12/13).

17/18. 52 Surrey, 57 Thames, Terrier’s sold to La Plata Tramway in Buenos Aires Argentina.

 

Not included here is the Blackpool trams in San Francisco, SR Yeo, Gwen, North Star (Replica) - not std gauge or the WD 2-8-0/J94 theory (no proof they ever reached the US).

Surely 4079 tops the lot though, as didn't it take a different route back home compared to the outward, and in doing so, became the first GWR loco to go around the world?

[MarcD]

Possibly what you’re thinking of are a group of outside cylinder 0-6-0T built for the Cornwall Minerals Railway by Sharp Stewart in 1874. There were originally eighteen built, intended to work as pairs back to back, so no bunkers. Three were returned to Sharps, and nine were taken over by the GWR and rebuilt as conventional 0-6-0ST. (GWR 1392 - 1400) The three retuned to Sharps had received more standard cabs and sold to the Lynn & Fakenham Rly. Another five of the original group had been set aside and also went to Sharps for rebuilding, being sold on to the L & F, where they got fitted out with four wheel tenders, which had already happened to the first three, but they still kept short side tanks. The other engine from the group went to the Colne Valley and Halstead. (Wheel diameter 3’6” for equal wheelbase of 11’)

The L&F went on to become part of the M&GNJR, (no’s.1-3, 11-14, 18) and four were rebuilt to 2-4-0 locos with slightly larger driving wheels, and the side tanks removed. The last of the class went in 1902.

You’ll appreciate that as small outside cylinder engines from an absorbed line, you may have trouble finding a suitable standard GWR loco, perhaps the chassis from a 1366? (3’8” dia. wheels, Wheelbase 5’+6’) The tender was a Sharps four wheel pattern, and there are 3D prints becoming available for the Cambrian and Furness locos which should be ok.

We are planning on producing a kit for one of these locos, in 7mm, once we have done the other Sharp Stewart locos.Watch this space.

 

Marc 

[pH]

If you're doing the furthest West, the Class 142 went to Expo 86 in Vancouver (142 036, I think). It ran between Van and New Westminster but was also reputedly trialled on the BC Rail 'Cariboo Dayliner' service to Lillooet as a potential replacement for RDCs

 

 

The class 142 was used between New Westminster and Abbotsford on the BC Hydro railway. It may have made it to Vancouver on occasion for display, but that wasn't a regular service. I did not know about trials on BC Rail.

 

 

Indeed Vancouver is 1 degree further west than San Francisco, so it does push 4472 out of number 1 spot.

Number 1 spot is shared between Dunrobin as mentioned, plus 6100 Royal Scot, plus pacer 142049...http://www.railforthevalley.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/RftV-001.jpg

 

I think that photo is at Abbotsford.

[melmerby]

Didn't a Grange make it to Huddersfield in 60s by mistake and end up trapped out of gauge having bashed it's way through a tunnel and several platforms?

Not so much a mistake as substituting for the non existent replacement North of Nottingham Victoria on an inter-regional train.

As you say it bashed a few bits on it's way and had to be sent back as an out of gauge load once a suitable return route had been organised.

 

Keith

[melmerby]

As we should all remember, Swindon locos were too wide over cylinders for most Southern lines

Thety were not so much too wide overall as too wide in the wrong place

 

There are plenty of Southern locos as wide as the Swindon product and virtually as tall but the maximum width is higher up

e.g. the G16 tank was 9' 2" wide but that is at the running plate and SR locos had the buffer plank scalloped, like many other locos if they were on the wide side, whereas the GWR buffer plank is full width for it's full height.

 

Keith

[manna]

Where did you get that information from?

 

None of my maps, atlases and shed books show any mention of GWR infrastructure in Peterborough.

 

Keith

G'Day Folks

 

Came up on LNER Encyclopedia, years ago, I questioned it at the time, but was told that it was true !!

 

manna