3rd-rail Through Station, 4th-rail Terminus

[mightbe]

Did such a place ever exist, where through platforms on a 3rd-rail line were also used by terminating 4th-rail services?

 

I was playing a bit of Variations on a Theme of Freezer in Anyrail earlier, trying to come up with a compact station-in-a-hole type design. When I started it was meant to be an SR, 3rd-rail Minories. It's since evolved into a through station with a bay platform. For my own amusement I decided to also make it an Underground terminus, as if it were part of a lengthening scheme that hadn't been (or wouldn't be) completed.

 

This is what I came up with. The layout/setting is fictional; I'm imagining the scene looking a bit like Kensington High Street, just with a mix of SR EMUs and Underground stock (note the facing outside slip):

 

 

And for some context here's a schematic, with the junction shown as being at the next signal box down the line. Red is LU 4th-rail, blue is SR/BR 3rd-rail, and purple is where the two coincide:

 

 

(Please ignore the signals, I know not what I have done.)

 

One of the curious implications of this arrangement is the bidirectional middle platform, with 3rd rail departures in one direction and 4th rail in the other. (In practice I imagine most Underground services would arrive in the bay platform.)

 

I know there are some stretches of the Bakerloo and District lines that overlap with 3rd rail NR track today, but I can't recall any historical overlap between SR's electrified lines and the Underground other than the side-by-side setup at New Cross Gate (until 2007?). I'm not limiting responses to Southern electrification, any company or location would do.

 

My query is this: Did the Underground ever have such a terminus--temporary, "temporary", or permanent--at any point in its history? It vaguely puts me in mind of Kensington Olympia, but "vague" is the operative word.

 

Quentin

Edited February 13, 2018 by mightbe

[Calimero]

Only places I can think of are the DC section Kilburn to Harrow/Watford and the section Gunnersbury to Richmond.

[iands]

Willesden Low Level. But here the 3rd rail terminates in the bay platform and the two through platforms are shared by 3rd and 4th rail stock.

 

Regards, Ian.

[stewartingram]

Harrow and Wealdstone is now the Bakerloo terminus, TfL Overground from the same platform continues onward to Watford Junction. The Underground used to go all the way but was cut back.

 

Stewart

[Miss Prism]

Through platforms on a 3rd-rail line also being used by terminating 4th-rail services is operationally extremely inconvenient unless some easily-accessed sidings are put in for nifty turnrounds. Although purely 4-rall, here's an old layout of Putney Bridge.
 

[iands]

Thinking about it a bit more, "a 3rd rail line also being used by terminating 4th rail services" is a bit misleading and wouldn't work - it would have to be 4th rail right up to the terminating point!

 

Regards, Ian.

[phil-b259]

Not quite on the same scale as your plan but don't forget about Richmond or Wimbledon both of which effectively have 4th Rail* in the terminating platforms but have the approaches shared with 3rd rail stock.

 

*Note the 4th rail in theses situations is actually bonded to the running rails and the outside rail sits at +600 to +750V. Its only when on pure LU  tracks doses the arrangement change to +400ish Volts on the outside and -200ish Volts on the centre rail.

[phil-b259]

Through platforms on a 3rd-rail line also being used by terminating 4th-rail services is operationally extremely inconvenient unless some easily-accessed sidings are put in for nifty turnrounds. Although purely 4-rall, here's an old layout of Putney Bridge.

 

 

Didn't stop that happening at New Cross Gate IIRC h (albut in this instance the platform concerned formed a loop for 3rd rail trains so wasn't part of the main line)

[mightbe]

Thinking about it a bit more, "a 3rd rail line also being used by terminating 4th rail services" is a bit misleading and wouldn't work - it would have to be 4th rail right up to the terminating point!

 

Regards, Ian.

 

The wording wasn't great I must concede, but I think it was understood that the 4th rail continued as far as the terminating station. Still, it's an improbable scenario: a 4th rail line briefly joining a 3rd rail line only to terminate at the next station. 

 

 

 

but don't forget about Richmond or Wimbledon both of which effectively have 4th Rail* in the terminating platforms but have the approaches shared with 3rd rail stock.

 

Richmond and Wimbledon popped into my head this morning actually, though as you say the platforms are separated. 

 

Quentin

[Nearholmer]

Don’t forget that all of the NLR/LNWR electrification was originally four-rail. I’m never sure exactly when the bits not shared with the Bakerloo were converted to three-rail, but I think coincident with the BR trains being introduced.

 

Nowadays, Harrow and Wealdstone qualifies, as terminal point of LU services, while others continue to Watford.

 

As you’ve drawn your layout, it is a nightmare of conflicting movements, so it won’t be popular with operators or commuters!

 

The most similar station I can quickly think of is Rayners Lane (all four-rail) on the Met and Picc, which has a junction just short of the station and a significant proportion of terminating trains (at least until a couple of years ago, not totally sure now), but there the turnback siding is beyond the station, to allow trains to be tucked out of the way. It’s your bay platform that creates all the trouble!

 

Kevin

Edited February 13, 2018 by Nearholmer

[mightbe]

Through platforms on a 3rd-rail line also being used by terminating 4th-rail services is operationally extremely inconvenient unless some easily-accessed sidings are put in for nifty turnrounds. Although purely 4-rall, here's an old layout of Putney Bridge.

 

 

Even though the linked plan is for Parsons Green, thank you for alerting me to Putney Bridge! 

 

 

An unusual layout for sure. 

 

(Because this photo reminded me, I did consider turning the bay platform into a through platform, to let a 3rd rail service continue regardless of which of the two platforms was being occupied by a terminating Underground service)

 

Quentin

 

[Nearholmer]

Yes, please do that.

 

It sort of bothers me unduly as you’ve drawn it; I can hear the complaints about the service!

[wn 1A]

NLR - Euston / Watford conversion date was March 1977, I seem to recall.

 

Don’t forget that all of the NLR/LNWR electrification was originally four-rail. I’m never sure exactly when the bits not shared with the Bakerloo were converted to three-rail, but I think coincident with the BR trains being introduced.

Nowadays, Harrow and Wealdstone qualifies, as terminal point of LU services, while others continue to Watford.

As you’ve drawn your layout, it is a nightmare of conflicting movements, so it won’t be popular with operators or commuters!

The most similar station I can quickly think of is Rayners Lane (all four-rail) on the Met and Picc, which has a junction just short of the station and a significant proportion of terminating trains (at least until a couple of years ago, not totally sure now), but there the turnback siding is beyond the station, to allow trains to be tucked out of the way. It’s your bay platform that creates all the trouble!

Kevin

Yes still the same today, pre September 2017 * Piccadilly Line Trains can also Reverse in the West bound platform mostly used for ECS back to South Harrow Sidings.

 

* Rayners Lane Junction was relaid on concrete sleeper's I have not checked if the formation was like for like.  

 Willesden High Level, was certainly 3rd rail only by 1981   

[wn 1A]

Willesden Low Level. But here the 3rd rail terminates in the bay platform and the two through platforms are shared by 3rd and 4th rail stock.

 

Regards, Ian.

Hi  Ian 4th rail still present after Sep 2017 relay in concrete sleepers.

 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/32413393@N00/23776926798/in/album-72157594347504922/ Link dated October 11, 2017.

[DY444]

The wording wasn't great I must concede, but I think it was understood that the 4th rail continued as far as the terminating station. Still, it's an improbable scenario: a 4th rail line briefly joining a 3rd rail line only to terminate at the next station. 

 

 

Richmond and Wimbledon popped into my head this morning actually, though as you say the platforms are separated. 

 

Quentin

 

FWIW I've seen SR ecs in the Wimbledon tube platforms (usually P4) in the past.   I remember VEPs and HAPs being in there regularly on weekday afternoons.  It might even have been a booked pre-pm peak move at one time - coming off the west end of Wimbledon Park depot, into the terminal platforms and then out to Waterloo via East Putney.

[Pandora]

Wimbledon to Point Pleasant Junction is shared 3rd outside  and 4th rail centre conductor rail and the line was formerly BR worked/owned but transferred to The Underground,  S.R slam door stock, used theline to gain access to Wimbledon depot,   I believe   SR slam door stock  had to be switched to series only mode for the traction motors to avoid overloading  the 750 Vdc supply.

[DIW]

There was Bakerloo fourth rail laid from Queen's Park towards Euston as far as Kilburn High Road (only); the idea was that the Bakerloo trains could run that far in operational emergency. I had run on a Bakerloo test train measuring radio coverage to Kiburn High Road in the early 2000s. Perhaps Stuart Ingram can remember whether this fourht rail capability has been removed or is still existing?

This provides a terminus for fourth-rail stock in a through 3-rail station. The Bakerloo stock could only run to the up platform; then return to Queens Park via a trailing crossover at the country end of Kilburn High Road.

[stewartingram]

There was Bakerloo fourth rail laid from Queen's Park towards Euston as far as Kilburn High Road (only); the idea was that the Bakerloo trains could run that far in operational emergency. I had run on a Bakerloo test train measuring radio coverage to Kiburn High Road in the early 2000s. Perhaps Stuart Ingram can remember whether this fourht rail capability has been removed or is still existing?

This provides a terminus for fourth-rail stock in a through 3-rail station. The Bakerloo stock could only run to the up platform; then return to Queens Park via a trailing crossover at the country end of Kilburn High Road.

 

I've now retired (as of Xmas Eve), but I was around that way not long before. The 4th rail seemed to still be in situ, though I wasn't tracking it (excuse the pun!). I've no idea when it was last used though, it was in a very dirty unused state. The Underground does have a policy of "rusty rail" trains being worked to keep lines usable; this bit always seemed far worse than most sidings though.

 

Stewart

[bimble]

Though if you were to ignore the through lines at Richmond, and look at the four terminal lines, one pair is used by Overground (3rd rail), whilst the other pair is used by Underground, which then combine and head off to Kew Gardens together. If you were pretend that the Overground lines continued that would give you something similar.

 

Amersham is another station where on combined tracks separate and 4th rail lines terminate and (I think in this case) unelectrified carry on. Though in this case the Underground lines continue past and the trains use that to change platforms for the return journey.

[LUL Test Crew]

On ‎22‎/‎02‎/‎2018 at 13:57, wn 1A said:

NLR - Euston / Watford conversion date was March 1977, I seem to recall.

 

Yes still the same today, pre September 2017 * Piccadilly Line Trains can also Reverse in the West bound platform mostly used for ECS back to South Harrow Sidings.

 

* Rayners Lane Junction was relaid on concrete sleeper's I have not checked if the formation was like for like.  

 Willesden High Level, was certainly 3rd rail only by 1981   

Rayners Lane still has the same layout

you can reverse west to east from the westbound platform (plt1) for south harrow (picc) or west to south to west harrow (Met) or use the centre siding just north of the station

the only "change" when the point were re-laid was to replace the old spring toggle points (14A&B) with powered points   

[DavidB-AU]

A possibility is to invent the "might have been"/"proposed several times" extension of the Bakerloo to Beckenham Junction, the current layout of which isn't that far off the diagram in the original post. Various routes were proposed including going underground to Catford Bridge, West Norwood, Ladywell or Lewisham (the current proposal) then put a 4th rail onto existing lines. The current proposal also includes putting a 4th rail to Hayes as well.

 

You could also imagine a slightly more fanciful extension of the District line from Wimbledon to Elmers End instead of trams, or the "scrawled on the back of an envelope" idea to extend the Northern line from Morden to St Helier and Sutton.

 

Cheers
David

Edited March 1, 2020 by DavidB-AU