Brassmasters Hall & Gibson Wheels

[CaptainBiggles]

I have the Brassmasters Hall and wish to get wheels for it.

 

Ultrascale very handily sell a "Hall" kit, complete with everything I need, but is currently on a 6 month lead time so that counts them out.

 

I've been pouring over the Alan Gibson catalogue, trying to work out what I'll need, individual component by individual component. The wheels themselves are easy enough, however, am I right in thinking I'll also need:

 

Crankpins - there are long and short bushes

Bearings - pin point or top hat or something else entirely?

Counterbalances - I think there are ones included in the Brassmasters kit

 

Can someone also help me with the (fairly fundamental) decisions I need to make with regards compensation beam and hornblocks please?

 

Is it a choice between hornblocks and compensation, or do you use both? There appear to be hornblocks in the kit, and refers to something called Flexichas, but also compensation beams and I'm terribly confused. Alan Gibson also sells De Luxe Hornblocks, will these be any better than the Brassmasters ones?

 

Out of preference I'd like to individually spring each wheel so that it can move up and down independently, i.e. the weight of the loco is set against the compression of the spring. Is this possible? Or am I asking for trouble?

 

I've not even started on pick-ups yet; am thinking of the Gibson plunger type.

 

With thanks, in anticipation,

 

Joel

Edited February 13, 2018 by CaptainBiggles

[Guy Rixon]

Flexichas uses compensation beams and is usually done with hornblocks. The latter make it easier to set up the axle spacing to match the coupling rods.

 

If there are hornblocks and matching bearings in the kit, then it's probably best to use those since they are part of the design. AGW used to sell hornblocks with built in springing; perhaps those are the "deluxe" ones? Or "deluxe" may refer to prototypical decoration over and above the functional form of the hornblocks.

 

Springing each wheel independently is possible, but tricky. People say it's hard to get the loco to sit level and at the right height. "Continuous Springy Beams" (CSBs), where there is one spring wire running each side of the frames, and therefore serving all the axles, is a technique designed to avoid these problems. The loco is made to sit level by setting the spring-mounting points to suit the weight distribution and is made to sit at the right height by choosing the right gauge of spring wire.

 

AGW also sell (or at least used to sell) "spring assisted" hornblocks where the loco rides with the springs fully compressed and the axles move in the horns only to adjust to uneven track. This also solves the ride-height/attitude problem, but not as smoothly as CSBs.

 

If you use springs, you will not be using the beams.

 

If you decide to fits CSBs, High Level Models sell components and alignment aids. There are freely-available spreadsheets to tell you where to drill the mounting points.

[garethashenden]

I'll try my best to answer all the questions.

 

1) Ultrascale wheels are excellent and probably worth the wait.

 

2) If you decide to use Gibson wheels you will need crankpin set 4M42B (sufficient for 6 wheels). This includes 6 short bushings and two long bushings. If you were building an inside cylinder engine you'd only need the short ones. Since a Hall has outside cylinders, the long bushings go on the wheel that the main rod connects to.

 

3) Bearings: Top hat bearings look somewhat like top hats, they are cylindrical with a flange. The axle goes through the bearing and they are used for inside journal arrangements such as bogies and locomotive frames. Pin point bearings are designed to take pin point axles. These are most commonly found in wagons and coaches, but sometimes in tenders or outside framed bogies. Finally, hornblocks are square or rectangular in shape with a hole for the axle in the middle and two grooves on the edges to fit into the chassis frames. This allows the axle to move vertically with respect to the chassis frames, more about them later.

 

4) Counter balances (or balance weights) are included in the kit, parts number 88 and 89.

 

5) Oh boy that's a can of worms. Everyone has their preferred way of compensating a chassis and there's no one "right" way of doing it. I'll try to sumarise.

A) Rigid. This is the simplest way of building a chassis and perfectly adequate for most OO and some EM models. There is no suspension with the axles being held by top hat bearings in the frames.

B) Flexichas. This is what most modellers mean by a "compensated chassis" and uses the techniques laid out by Mike Sharman in his 1982 book Flexichas. The basis of it is that a pair of adjacent axles held in hornblocks are allowed to move vertically in the chassis. There is then a beam mounted on a pivot between the two axles and contacting both. What happens is that when the first axle encounters a bump it rises up, the beam also rises at that end, but because of the pivot forces the second axle down. This allows for the two axles to work together to go over the bump without jolting the locomotive. This is the method used in the kit.

C) Springing with individual springs: This is fairly straightforward in principle, but a pain in practice. The most common form has a small coil spring mounted above the hornblock, usually fully compressed. When the wheel encounters a low spot in the track the spring pushes it down to maintain contact. The reason this is such a pain is that all the springs have to be matched to both each other and to the weight of the locomotive.

D) Continuous Springy Beams or CSB. This is sort of a hybrid between compensation and springing and works very well. There are two long thin springs, usually guitar wire running along the length of the chassis. These run through fulcrums between the axles and are attached to the tops of the hornblocks. As with Flexichas, when one axle goes up the next on goes down, but because of the springy beam it is a bit smoother. These take a bit of forward planning and calculating to place the fulcrums correctly, but there are spreadsheets to help with the maths.

 

6) Pickups. I personally have never got plunger pickups to work. This may be my failing, but I'm not the only one. Phosphor bronze wire with a couple of loops in it is far easier and cheaper and gives satisfactory results.

 

Hope this helps

[garethashenden]

One extra thought, buy extra crankpin nuts. They have a very high ping factor and you will loose at least one.

[davknigh]

One extra thought, buy extra crankpin nuts. They have a very high ping factor and you will loose at least one.

Only one? You must be highly favoured by the GCG. I usually buy the pack of ten as a safety margin, they never go to waste.

 

Cheers,

 

David

[Siberian Snooper]

There is a lot about csb's on the Scaleforum website and also the CLAG site. You don't need to be a member to access them, but you can't make any posts though.

[polybear]

There is a lot about csb's on the Scaleforum website and also the CLAG site. You don't need to be a member to access them, but you can't make any posts though.

 

However, you can post in the "Guest" section.

[Horsetan]

....Ultrascale very handily sell a "Hall" kit, complete with everything I need, but is currently on a 6 month lead time so that counts them out.....

 

Are they back down to 6 months now? Website still says "8".....

[Bucoops]

If it's any consolation I first asked to order some wheels from Markits in September, and I think I finally managed to order them this week. When delivery will be I don't know but I think everything I ordered is in stock - had to leave a couple of bits off.

[DougN]

A couple of hints on Alan Gibson crank pin nuts. to put them on with out them flicking around the room to the Great Carpet god. Use a clutch pencil which is similar to a pacer pencil but designed for a 1.5mm thick lead. they as the name suggests grabs with 3 or 4 teeth to the nut and allows the pencil to be twisted onto the crank pin. The next one is, well you can steal from a female in your life, nail polish. I use this as a "nut lock" on the thread. Between the nail polish holding the nut from working loose and the reversible nature of the clutch pencil the nuts can be un screwed and re screwed (relocked) with out the dreaded PING or wondering why something is not running as the loco has thrown a rod some where on the layout and you go looking for the nuts again!

 

Personally I would buy the 10 pack as some times there is a dud bearing, or nut so having spares, you'll never lose one as you have spares!

Edited February 15, 2018 by DougN

[serron]

Good morning CaptainBiggles. If you have the Brassmasters "hall" then it will be from the Martin Finney stable, unless they slipped another one in before taking on Mr. Finney's products. These 4mm kits do, as far as I am aware, have built in chassis compensation on the three legged stool principal and it works perfectly well giving the correct ride height. The late John Hayes did an excellent step by step build article in MRJ issue 55 on the building of this kit and obtaining a copy/photocopy would be an advantage. Finney kits go together extremely well and I found John Hayes articles on building the Finney A3 invaluable. finishing up doing another one for the sheer pleasure of it!  As for wheels for these kits "garethashenden" is spot on recommending the Ultrascale wheels as first choice and the wait is worth it. Albeit at 8 months. However, there is absolutely nothing wrong with AGW wheels but I find they do need a little more work in the crankpin area. Regards. Serron.         

[Craigw]

What gauge are you building this model?

 

Regards,

 

Craig w

[CaptainBiggles]

Thank you all for taking the time to patiently offer help and advice. I spent last night pouring over the instructions for the umpteenth time, and now, with your comments ringing in my ears I understood them for the first time. Thank you. The ScaleFour Forum was also a great read.

 

I was given the kit by my best friend back in September, and have agreed to give a demo at the upcoming Ilford & West Essex show in April. Perhaps this was a little foolish given my only prior kit-building experience has been a G6 and Brake Van in 7mm from Conoisseur - both of which were built with no compensation and went together very straightforwardly.

 

I've just ordered the 10" rollers, wheel quartering jig and universal rivet tool from G. W. Models. I plan on getting the Avonside chassis jig and folding bars from Eileen's Emporium at Ally Pally. I already have a temperature controlled soldering iron (second hand Weller unit from eBay, brilliant value!), is there anything else I might need that'll help (I've obviously got a range of hand tools etc).

 

I'd love to wait for the Ultrascale wheels but they'd not come in time for the show sadly. Thanks for the tips on getting extra pins etc, that would have driven me nuts!. I will be using the Hi-Level gearbox with 54:1 ratio as I prefer to see my locos running smoothly into a terminus and so will probably put a flywheel on there too if there's room.

 

Thanks to Serron for informing me of the MRJ build guide, I'll set about trying to get hold of a copy. EDIT - just checked online, Cygnet have sold out. Does anyone have a copy or can scan the article for me please?

 

And to CraigW who asked what gauge - 00 / 16.5 I'm afraid. I'd love to see it to a more prototypical gauge but I've nothing to run it on, nor will I for a very very long time if I go down the EM or P4 route.

Edited February 14, 2018 by CaptainBiggles

[Jol Wilkinson]

Your opening post suggests some inexperience with compensated/sprung chassis. If that is so, and as you are building for 00 gauge, then I would recommend building a rigid chassis. 

 

AGW wheels are less expensive but take more care in fitting/assembly. The instructions also list Markits wheels, which for 00  may be an easier option, although the GW wheel press you have on order would be a great help with AGW wheels.

[garethashenden]

I've found you two copies of MRJ 55. No connection to either, just trying to help.

The magazine on it's own: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/THE-MODEL-RAILWAY-JOURNAL-1992-No-55-England-Trains-Locomotives-Craft-Hobbies/262892761639?hash=item3d35a13227:g:OGQAAOSwB-1YxfOv

A small collection including it: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Model-Railway-Journal-No-3-51-52-53-54-55-No-56/183071128782?hash=item2a9fe3bcce:g:eAwAAOSwDkVabcRF

[KalKat]

   *stares at ceiling whistling*    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4mm-Finescale-OO-EM-Ultrascale-GWR-Hall-wheels-inc-crankpins-very-best-wheels/202222480449?hash=item2f15662c41:g:YGMAAOSwbPNadIdk

 

 

 

Emma

[CaptainBiggles]

Argh, 5 bidders already!

[Jol Wilkinson]

Irony too. The ebay seller is one of the Brassmasters team.

[Clearwater]

Argh, 5 bidders already!

it wouldn’t surprise me if one or more of those five bidders were active rmwebbers!

[Mark]

Thank you all for taking the time to patiently offer help and advice. I spent last night pouring over the instructions for the umpteenth time, and now, with your comments ringing in my ears I understood them for the first time. Thank you. The ScaleFour Forum was also a great read.

 

I was given the kit by my best friend back in September, and have agreed to give a demo at the upcoming Ilford & West Essex show in April. Perhaps this was a little foolish given my only prior kit-building experience has been a G6 and Brake Van in 7mm from Conoisseur - both of which were built with no compensation and went together very straightforwardly.

 

I've just ordered the 10" rollers, wheel quartering jig and universal rivet tool from G. W. Models. I plan on getting the Avonside chassis jig and folding bars from Eileen's Emporium at Ally Pally. I already have a temperature controlled soldering iron (second hand Weller unit from eBay, brilliant value!), is there anything else I might need that'll help (I've obviously got a range of hand tools etc).

 

I'd love to wait for the Ultrascale wheels but they'd not come in time for the show sadly. Thanks for the tips on getting extra pins etc, that would have driven me nuts!. I will be using the Hi-Level gearbox with 54:1 ratio as I prefer to see my locos running smoothly into a terminus and so will probably put a flywheel on there too if there's room.

 

Thanks to Serron for informing me of the MRJ build guide, I'll set about trying to get hold of a copy. EDIT - just checked online, Cygnet have sold out. Does anyone have a copy or can scan the article for me please?

 

And to CraigW who asked what gauge - 00 / 16.5 I'm afraid. I'd love to see it to a more prototypical gauge but I've nothing to run it on, nor will I for a very very long time if I go down the EM or P4 route.

 

There is a set of EM Ultrascale Hall Wheels going on Ebay at the moment. All you need to do is use a shortened axle for OO. 

 

Regards

 

Mark Humphrys

[CaptainBiggles]

I think those are the ones that Emma posted Mark aren't they? Or am I missing some more?

 

Last night I spent the evening trying to work out how the Inside Motion works. I think I got there... I'm worried that I'll end up soldering something that needs to move but I reckon it will make more sense when I start getting the parts together on my bench rather than in my head while on the sofa.

 

Thanks all for your kindness and advice,

 

Joel

[CaptainBiggles]

Here are some photos of my previous kit building experience btw. Jim McGowan's LSWR New Van. I'll try and dig out some photos of the G6 I also built from Connoisseur.

 

 

Joel

[DougN]

Captain as I dug out the issue 55 last night, and reading above I went back to read nos 65 and 66 again. As the issue 55 is referenced in the build of the A3... of which I have one in unbuilt form! Oh how I wish to have the brain power after work to start to build it... one day.. but the V2 needs to be done first!

[dmurrell]

Joel,

 

I'm not sure there is enough room between the frames in 00 for working inside motion - I very much doubt it, but check the instructions. I would suggest leaving out the inside motion anyway if this is your first 4mm loco chassis, it does add a degree of difficulty! There's enough new stuff with managing compensation and quartering etc if it's your first build, assuming you don't build it rigid. I had probably built about a dozen P4 locos before tackling working inside motion in Finney Collett goods many years ago and it did slow things down a little. You can probably go back and add it later anyway if there's room between frames.

 

Very nice brake van by the way!

 

David