Class 47 Colour of Two Tone Green in Scotland early 70s

[Shed Driver]

The second shade used for the 2 tone green is usually Sherwood Green.  I remember in the early 70s,  when precision paints started,  seeing a tin of their sherwood green.  The opinion of myself and a few friends was that this shade was totaly wrong for the locos that we saw passing through Fife between Edinburgh and Aberdeen.  I also remember a 47 on display at an Eastfield open day in the early 70s and the green that I recall was the same as used for the lower stripe on the Deltics.  ( unfortunately I only have a black and white Photo which does indicate a large contrast between the two shades of green)  I would assume that the shade of green that I saw on a daily basis was a weathered version of this light green

 

Any Thoughts.

 

Norman Blackburn

 

 

[Clive Mortimore]

The lighter green on all the Type four and halfs was Sherwood Green. A colour I think even BR had difficulties in maintaining the same shade. Some newly painted ones seemed brighter than those who were awaiting to go into works.

[Shed Driver]

The lighter green on all the Type four and halfs was Sherwood Green. A colour I think even BR had difficulties in maintaining the same shade. Some newly painted ones seemed brighter than those who were awaiting to go into works.

Hi Clive

 

How light would you say sherwood green could be?.  As I recall  Grass green or LNER apple green would be quiet close 

 

Norman

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Clive

 

How light would you say sherwood green could be?.  As I recall  Grass green or LNER apple green would be quiet close 

 

Norman

Hi Norman

 

I said brighter, not lighter. Both Precision and Rail Match do Sherwood green. I cannot remember which way round but one is more yellow in colour than the other. Bachmann and Heljan renditions of the two tone livery do not jar with my memory where other companies attempts have. Definitely not grass or apple green or the lime green used as the light coloured band on Deltic and Hymeks.

 

Having used both Rail Match and Precision paints on Class 47s and Class 25s the brighter yellowy one looks better on the type twos than on the type 4s.

Edited February 15, 2018 by Clive Mortimore

[45125]

Hi Norman

 

I said brighter, not lighter. Both Precision and Rail Match do Sherwood green. I cannot remember which way round but one is more yellow in colour than the other. Bachmann and Heljan renditions of the two tone livery do not jar with my memory where other companies attempts have. Definitely not grass or apple green or the lime green used as the light coloured band on Deltic and Hymeks.

 

Having used both Rail Match and Precision paints on Class 47s and Class 25s the brighter yellowy one looks better on the type twos than on the type 4s.

 

One of the problems with Sherwood Green was that it faded badly, quite often when a loco was renumbered to rail alphabet style  the old number was often painted out or the area just refreshed, the new paint always had more green hue as well as a bit more glossy.  

 

 

When 47401 was repainted at Immingham in to two tone green the Sherwood green didn't look right, it look very pale. However one of the supervisors who was ex Beyer Peacock suggested that it need a coat of varnish as this is what Beyers did with the Sulzer twos. When finished it looked more like Sherwood Green, and like some nineteen sixties Sherwood Green in the stores....

 

Al Taylor

[64B]

The second shade used for the 2 tone green is usually Sherwood Green.  I remember in the early 70s,  when precision paints started,  seeing a tin of their sherwood green.  The opinion of myself and a few friends was that this shade was totaly wrong for the locos that we saw passing through Fife between Edinburgh and Aberdeen.  I also remember a 47 on display at an Eastfield open day in the early 70s and the green that I recall was the same as used for the lower stripe on the Deltics.  ( unfortunately I only have a black and white Photo which does indicate a large contrast between the two shades of green)  I would assume that the shade of green that I saw on a daily basis was a weathered version of this light green

 

Any Thoughts.

 

Norman Blackburn

 

 

img297.jpg

 

Hi Shed Driver,

 

Here is a  photo taken of 1969 at the Eastfield open day.  Sorry about the poor quality photo

Edited February 24, 2018 by 64B

[slilley]

This is what Class 47 50 Years of Locomotive History says on the issue.

 

Livery
As construction of the first locomotive progressed towards the end of January 1962, Brush were starting to press the BTC for information as to the proposed livery including the positioning of crests, numbers, lining and yellow warning panels on the cab fronts. George Williams wrote to Ted Wilkes on 15 February 1962 on the subject. He explained that the CME, J. F. Harrison, did not favour a light green band along the bottom edge of the locomotive’s bodyside, which he felt would adversely affect the balanced appearance of the locomotive. It was also proving impractical on the classes to which it was already applied, as it quickly became dirty from deposits of brake dust and grease. Harrison wanted to see experiments based on the banding style of the Brush Type 2s, or an alternative with the light green band being placed higher up on the bodyside.
   It was the latter style that Ted Wilkes developed. His proposals were presented to the BTC at the end of February 1962, with approval from the CME being given on 9 March. The livery selected was an attractive two-tone green. The predominant shade for the body and roof was Brunswick Green, separated on the bodysides by a middle band of Sherwood Green. This was a new colour for BR and had originated from the Citroen Car Company in France. On the cab fronts, yellow warning panels replaced the Sherwood Green, and the buffer beams were finished in red. Underframes and bogies were black, as also were the ETH connections. The livery for the new locomotives was one of the last matters to be resolved, and certain details were still being finalised as late as August, as the first example neared completion. No D1500 briefly carried its number on a white panel on the driver’s side, but this was changed to orthodox transfers before it entered traffic.

[Clive Mortimore]

The colours were Green, main body colour BR spec 30a item 34a and the intermediate colour Sherwood Green BR Spec 30a item 58. I cannot find the BS colour match, I am not sure if BR did use BS colours but used their own colour specifications. I would love to see the BR colour specification samples.

[slilley]

The number of the Sherwood Green quoted in a memo from JF Harrison on 1st August 1962 is No 25231 if that is any help.

 

I have the BS nos for the cab interiors as well when built.

 

Simon

[slilley]

The Sherwood Green used on the Brush Type 4s and indeed the BR Type 2s is definitely not the same colour as used on Deltics and Hymeks. 

[Enterprisingwestern]

The Sherwood Green used on the Brush Type 4s and indeed the BR Type 2s is definitely not the same colour as used on Deltics and Hymeks. 

 

Primarily, I would imagine, because they were built by different manufacturers at different works, each with their own take on "standard" colours, and different ways of applying it?

 

Mike.

[coachmann]

When some Class 47 locos were repainted n two-tone green in more recent times, they looked pretty much as I remember the Brush Type 4's in the 1960's. The 'Sherwood' green was quite elusive and could look darker in some conditions. When I painted an 0 gauge 47 for a client some years ago, I mixed cellulose to match PPC colours. The model looked right at the end of the day, although I must say cellulose tends to look less garish than enamel paints for some reason.

 

 

 

Edited March 5, 2018 by coachmann

[slilley]

Primarily, I would imagine, because they were built by different manufacturers at different works, each with their own take on "standard" colours, and different ways of applying it?

 

Mike.

Not so.  The colour used for the middle band of the Brush Type 4s was a completely new colour for BR. Harrison didnt like the light green used for the Hymeks and Deltics hence the change, as I explained above.

[jonny777]

It does seem to be the case that the Sherwood Green weathered into a much duller shade after a few years. I remember wondering in the early 1970s if the shade had actually changed colour specification, such was the difference between green 47s I saw at Reading in 1973 to those I had seen on the ECML in the mid-1960s. 

 

However, by 1973 the surviving green examples sported paintwork that must have been at least 5 or 6 years old, if not more. 

 

An illustration of what I mean can be seen here - http://www.rail-online.co.uk/p847202731/h2e9db5a8#h2e9db5a8 

 

So I suppose there could be a case for having mid-1970s layouts with locos given a slightly duller shade of green in the pale stripe. 

[Halvarras]

Embellishments to the standard dark green livery went through three distinct phases, and white or off-white stripes seemed to go out of fashion just as the 1960s dawned, which perhaps is why EE's Class 37s didn't receive the Class 40's upper stripe. In 1961 the Hymeks and Deltics appeared with yellow-green skirting, but as noted above this area was in the firing line for dirt accumulation hence a preference for moving the contrasting band up the bodyside of the Brush Type 4 in 1962. If one can imagine the 'in yer face' effect of the latter being finished with a yellow-green band it was no surprise that a subtler shade was chosen! Sherwood green was clearly in favour after that as in 1965 it was used for the refurbished Baby Deltics' and DP2's skirting in preference to the brighter colour.

 

It does appear on some photos that a few of Stratford's Class 47s in the D177x range had their lighter bands repainted in a shade with a distinctly blue hue, as clearly illustrated on page 136 of Strathwood's first 'Sixties Diesel and Electric Days Remembered' volume. This colour also seemed to be used by some depots, notably Cardiff Canton, to delete D prefixes from its Class 47s in the late '60s, not by overpainting just the D but the entire light green area of the cabside around the number. I ranked this as looking nearly as horrible as the obliteration of Ds on some LMR Peaks using something akin to black tar! Both would have looked better left untouched.

 

The off-white stripe made a comeback in 1965 of course, on the NBL Class 29 conversions, but unusually in conjunction with Sherwood green - maybe in somebody's mind at the time this was making up for the plain appearance of the 'donor' Class 21s, the only Type 2 not to have any such decorative relief!