NER coach livery in LNER ownership

[DougN]

I am late to this conversation, I too have been trying and failing to find this exact information on NER 6 wheel coachs as I have built one and was looking around for the answer.... well mine went into Faux teak.... any how there seemed to be serious lack of information and it is very difficult to track down any photos (you may have more luck as I am in Australia and our libraries tend not to hold the interesting information I am looking for) So far I have heard of the :-

6 wheelers which were all with drawn by early 1930's and were hiting life expired prior to grouping were NER lake or LNER Brown. What I would like is at least a select few making it into faux Teak.

The clerestories seem to be randomly Lake, through Faux teak and then to LNER brown as these weren't as old as the 6 wheel stock

The standard roofed coaches matched the Clerestories but I am not sure if they made it into Lake. 

 

I am rather interested in this as I would like to actually show that the change in livery was more of a progressive thing rather than an over night change which I doubt would have happened to the older stock. I have heard that some NER Lake stock made it as late as 1940 but with out photographic proof this is only hearsay. 

 

If we look at the current speed as which the corporate liveries change it would at least take a couple of years to go through and change and I think at grouping it would be longer as there was less use of transfers and the time to rub back, repaint a coach no doubt took at least a week or 2. Then when adding in operating requirements this should push the changes will beyond 1930. 

 

Can some one put up which BRJ issue as I don't take the magazine but I know a few people who have the full collection so I would like to read the article! 

Edited March 5, 2018 by DougN

[DaveF]

From what I have read over many years and from looking at old photographs of trains from all of the "big four" I think the livery change would have been spread over many years.   Railway companies did not spend money unless they had too, a coach would usually only be repainted when it needed it, especially secondary/older stock.

 

There may have been some renumbering/relettering long before the livery was altered.

 

As far as livery changes were concerned it was a very different world from the one we now inhabit.

 

David

[Wickham Green]

From what I have read over many years and from looking at old photographs of trains from all of the "big four" I think the livery change would have been spread over many years.   Railway companies did not spend money unless they had too, a coach would usually only be repainted when it needed it, especially secondary/older stock.

 

There may have been some renumbering/relettering long before the livery was altered.

 

As far as livery changes were concerned it was a very different world from the one we now inhabit.

 

David

Maybe we should invent a definitive system of eras ? : pre-vinyl & post-vinyl !!?!

[Shedrail]

There is plenty of info around that tells us that for pre-Grouping carriages, the cost of removing layers of various coloured paints was not considered worthwhile, and a brown paint scheme was applied to resemble the colour of teak. This colour varied but was probably milk chocolate in shade rather than dark chocolate as per GWR.

 

The impending Nationalization appeared to encourage some extravagance at some railway works after the war, and I have seen a photo of an ex.GNoSR coach in grained mock teak. Some LNER and constituent coaches even reverted to lining-out and white roofs, but that is something else.

Larry,

 

This is valuable information regarding LNER brown paintwork, do you know what colour the roof would be?

 

I have several six wheel coaches to paint and any information you might have would be very useful.

[jwealleans]

I stand to be corrected, but the only 6 wheel carriages I'm aware of in public use on the ex-LNER system after the war were the two on the Mid-Suffolk. I think even the staff trains had inherited bogie vehicles by 1947.

[coachmann]

Larry,

 

This is valuable information regarding LNER brown paintwork, do you know what colour the roof would be?

Photographic evidence shows a return to white roofs after the war, certainly on coaches painted right at the end of the LNER's existence. However, videos of trains show a truer picture to my mind because cine was often shot from overbridges while stills-photographers more often shot trackside. Even on the GWR in pre-WW2 days, white roofs stood out on solitary vehicles in trains with roofs that were far from white. This applied to the LNER too. In the all-steam environment, white did not last long. 

 

LNER coach roofs were white for a reason. Nearly all roofs were deal-boarded with canvas covering, which was protected with two or three coats of white lead paint. With the GWR, white was merely a tradition seeing as this company had gone over to steel roofs shortly after the 1923 Grouping. 

Edited March 17, 2018 by coachmann

[Compound2632]

LNER coach roofs were white for a reason. Nearly all roofs were deal-boarded with canvas covering, which was protected with two or three coats of white lead paint. 

 

LNWR likewise, and other companies too. The Midland was perhaps an exception, painting roofs grey? But the reason is the same: the main constituent of the grey paint was white lead. Were they perhaps using the same formula as for wagons?

[jim.snowdon]

LNWR likewise, and other companies too. The Midland was perhaps an exception, painting roofs grey? But the reason is the same: the main constituent of the grey paint was white lead. Were they perhaps using the same formula as for wagons?

The use of white lead paint as a medium for both bedding and sealing the canvas on carriage and wagon roofs was virtually universal. Even with steel roof panels, the paint would still have been lead based and the same rules apply in respect of the way it darkens with exposure to the atmosphere.

 

Jim

[Shedrail]

Photographic evidence shows a return to white roofs after the war, certainly on coaches painted right at the end of the LNER's existence. However, videos of trains show a truer picture to my mind because cine was often shot from overbridges while stills-photographers more often shot trackside. Even on the GWR in pre-WW2 days, white roofs stood out on solitary vehicles in trains with roofs that were far from white. This applied to the LNER too. In the all-steam environment, white did not last long.

 

LNER coach roofs were white for a reason. Nearly all roofs were deal-boarded with canvas covering, which was protected with two or three coats of white lead paint. With the GWR, white was merely a tradition seeing as this company had gone over to steel roofs shortly after the 1923 Grouping.

 

Larry,

 

Thank you for your help I will purchase some white paint. I have always wondered why a railway coach for would be painted white.

Edited March 17, 2018 by Shedrail

[jim.snowdon]

Although it didn't take very long for the white, ex-Works roof to start turning grey, and not much longer for it to be grey. Presuming that this is for a model, the fact that most layouts are at a height that leaves the viewer looking down on the trains means that pristine white roofs stand out like a sore thumb.

 

Jim

[Shedrail]

Although it didn't take very long for the white, ex-Works roof to start turning grey, and not much longer for it to be grey. Presuming that this is for a model, the fact that most layouts are at a height that leaves the viewer looking down on the trains means that pristine white roofs stand out like a sore thumb.

Jim

Jim,

 

I agree, I am not keen on painting pristine white, perhaps I can find a grey colour which would represent the aged lead paint. However this discussion has helped me to understand why we see so many models with white roofs. Thank you all for being so helpful, I am not an expert on railways I just like to make models and try to get them as correct as I can.

[coachmann]

While white in a dirty state could be described as grey, it will simply look like light grey paint. It is dirty white and a better treatment on models is to spray much diluted blackish-brown over the white. Otherwise, the other alternative to go for full blown dirty black(Precision Paints P981). Which is how they all ended up.

[Shedrail]

While white in a dirty state could be described as grey, it will simply look like light grey paint. It is dirty white and a better treatment on models is to spray much diluted blackish-brown over the white. Otherwise, the other alternative to go for full blown dirty black(Precision Paints P981). Which is how they all ended up.

Larry,

 

Thank you for this you and other members of the forum have been most helpful.

[jwealleans]

There is a thread on the LNER forum for photographs of teak vehicles intended to help the modeller. See page 3 for some of Mike Trice's pictures of white roofs weathering.

 

https://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=12632

[Wickham Green]

There is a thread on the LNER forum for photographs of teak vehicles intended to help the modeller. See page 3 for some of Mike Trice's pictures of white roofs weathering.

 

https://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=12632

These are all from the preservation era, of course, so will not be horrible nasty illegal LEAD-based paint .......... so they'll attract dirt in more or less the same way as they would in t'th'old days but the pigment will not discolour in the same fashion.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Although it didn't take very long for the white, ex-Works roof to start turning grey, and not much longer for it to be grey. Presuming that this is for a model, the fact that most layouts are at a height that leaves the viewer looking down on the trains means that pristine white roofs stand out like a sore thumb.

 

 But a realistic sore thumb surely, even if a true rarity standing out amongst the all pervasive filth? It really did happen and there are colour photos from the 1930's of LNER passenger and goods stock in traffic with very white roofs indeed. There may well be similar for the other groups, but I have not seen any examples. (The Big Four in Colour 1935-50, my much recommended useful reference.)

[John Smart]

I am more than a little late to this topic.

 

Hopefully the attached photos show that even humble non-corridor stock could get a 'teak' painted finish.

 

The top image is the one mentioned by Mr Scott earlier in the thread.

 

The second image is grained, although not too clear on the screen.

 

There are a couple of Casserley shots at Kirkby Stephen which also show grained NER non-corridor stock.

 

John

Edited January 14, 2019 by John Smart

[jwealleans]

Were these ersatz teak or genuine stripping and varnishing, John?

[micklner]

If only Hornby produced that Coach ( I have given up with Bachmann !!)  or you could buy a kit . Lovely photo.

[jwealleans]

Danny is doing NER carriages on his next list, Mick (I was chatting to him on Sunday) and that birdcage brake is one he has done in the past.

[John Smart]

Jonathan,

 

My understanding is that the carriages were not built using teak panels, therefore the finish is painted.

 

There are a few eye-witness accounts in early copies of the North Eastern Express, which state many carriages were repainted with a teak finish, but others did just have overall brown paint.

 

One wonders, for instance, if any of the NER stock which went to the GE-Section was subsequently painted with a grained finish?

 

I am glad Dan is still doing some 4mm stuff - I don't think I need any more NER carriages though.

 

I am busy with a D&S GN horsebox at present, a few challenges mostly due to lack of clear prototype evidence.

 

John

[micklner]

Danny is doing NER carriages on his next list, Mick (I was chatting to him on Sunday) and that birdcage brake is one he has done in the past.

 

Thanks, any indication when he might be doing the list please? . I have sent him two s.a.e's over the last couple of years and never received anything from him!! .

[micklner]

A year on !! , has anything been heard from Dan Pinnock please ??

[billbedford]

On 14/01/2019 at 18:07, John Smart said:

Jonathan,

 

My understanding is that the carriages were not built using teak panels, therefore the finish is painted.

 

There are a few eye-witness accounts in early copies of the North Eastern Express, which state many carriages were repainted with a teak finish, but others did just have overall brown paint.

 

One wonders, for instance, if any of the NER stock which went to the GE-Section was subsequently painted with a grained finish?

 

I am glad Dan is still doing some 4mm stuff - I don't think I need any more NER carriages though.

 

 

 

Main line LNER pre-grouping carriages were given a teak livery until the livery change of 1928, there after they were painted coach brown. The change usually came when the stock was replaced by standard coaches and were allocated to secondary services. 

[Ken.W]

On a related subject, did any of the ex-NER non-corridor stock which lasted on local services into the mid-fifties ever receive BR crimson, or did they all remain in painted brown till withdrawn?