JLTRT

[N15class]

Generally the pecking order for funds starts Taxman at top banks second  with Joe public at bottom. Last time I had a dealings with an insolvent company the offer by the time it got to my wages was £0.10 in the pound. Not a lot of return on £10,000 claim.  You also have keep after it if they offer and you don't reply the sum is then nil.

[PMP]

I was not aware of the 30 day limit on claims.............when Monarch Airlines went bust last year I phoned American Express, they took the details, and credited my account immediately. I had written confirmation of the transaction within 7 days.https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/section-75-of-the-consumer-credit-act

Monarch were an ATOL protected operator, so if your travel was bought with ATOL protection, there is a fund that joe public gets paid from if an airline goes under. This is likely one of the reasons your refund was so quick. A colleague had to wait a couple of months for their refund as they didn’t pay using credit cards. In an industry where there’s no ‘safety net’ it may not be as straightforward for the credit card companies to refund.

[Grovenor]

A 30 day limit makes no sense when a supplier manufactures to order and has a longer than 30 day delivery. There does not seem to be any mention of such a time limit on the Which site linked above.

Regardless, had I paid by card I would be putting in a claim, you have nothing to lose by doing so. I would also contact the reciever and find out if your order is actually going to be delivered, and if not ask for your money back.

Regards

[gismorail]

Whatever the 'in's and out's' of this very sorry state of affairs none of us involved in this thread discussion have the full facts at our disposal to make a full and honest assessment of the full situation. Pete Waterman is a successful business man who will have professional accountants that will have had input into this situation so maybe we should await a final outcome to this story. 

[Redkiterail]

Also the factory and court process is in Scotland under roman law not English common law

[blueeighties]

Posted in error

Edited March 11, 2018 by blueeighties

[Grovenor]

Anyone who has paid for goods and not recieved them should take action,

See  https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/somethings-gone-wrong-with-a-purchase/getting-your-money-back-if-you-paid-by-card-or-paypal/

 

The time limits are between 6 and 18 months. The 30 day time limit mentioned above is for rejecting faulty goods and starts from delivery, nothing to do with goods not delivered.

Regards

[gismorail]

Anyone who has paid for goods and not recieved them should take action,

See  https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/somethings-gone-wrong-with-a-purchase/getting-your-money-back-if-you-paid-by-card-or-paypal/

 

The time limits are between 6 and 18 months. The 30 day time limit mentioned above is for rejecting faulty goods and starts from delivery, nothing to do with goods not delivered.

Regards

As mentioned by the post prior to this does this cover Scottish Law. ?? (Just asking the question )

[Hal Nail]

Anyone who has paid for goods and not recieved them should take action,

See  https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/somethings-gone-wrong-with-a-purchase/getting-your-money-back-if-you-paid-by-card-or-paypal/

 

The time limits are between 6 and 18 months. The 30 day time limit mentioned above is for rejecting faulty goods and starts from delivery, nothing to do with goods not delivered.

Regards

 

Be interesting to see the outcome of this generally, not JLTRT specific as I'd always believed that in the event of an insolvency type situation there was little you could do outside the formal creditors' processes. I'm increasingly uncomfortable having to pay up front (not just for model deposits but holidays, house refurbs etc) given we are seeing an increase in businesses failing at the moment, so it's good to know if there is some protection as individuals.  

[djparkins]

Be interesting to see the outcome of this generally, not JLTRT specific as I'd always believed that in the event of an insolvency type situation there was little you could do outside the formal creditors' processes. I'm increasingly uncomfortable having to pay up front (not just for model deposits but holidays, house refurbs etc) given we are seeing an increase in businesses failing at the moment, so it's good to know if there is some protection as individuals.  

 

I agree. As a manufacturer I always try to put myself in the position of the customer.

 

I get sick and tired of ordering items [not just models] only to be told that the item is not actually in stock. Surely if it is out of stock, it is a simple matter to disable the online ordering for the item until it is back in stock. We link our web site to our stock levels so that if you can order it online, then we have physically got it!

 

That way, we never have the bother of back-orders or of customers chasing us if our suppliers let us down - and everyone is happy [we hope!!!]. Also, it seems to me that a lot of suppliers continue in blissful ignorance of the UK Distance Selling Regulations and the obligations these place upon them!

 

I want that same level of protection when I order goods, so can hardly complain if, in turn, my own customers demand it.

 

I think that if you know you are 'in trouble' the best solution might be to stop digging and set all your stock quantities to zero.

 

Regards

 

David Parkins

Modern Motive Power

www.djparkins.com

[arran]

HI All

 

If He walks away from JLRT and leaves people out of pocket it will be a sad day.

 

Regards Arran

[Sulzer Bear]

Andy -

 

Thank you for a very thoughtful contribution to this thread. If I may, I'd like to take a little time to try and pull together some of the points raised in previous posts from the point of view of both a modeller, and of a 7mm kit manufacturer.

 

Firstly, to develop Andy's point about gaining skills over the years, as your modelling progresses. I fully agree. I took the decision to model in 7mm back in 1974/5 after buying a 3H wagon kit. This I made in an evening and fitted Jackson wheels to it. I was hooked. Then the first Slaters MR wagons came out. No more 3H after that! Then I started to build Westdale coaches and get into etched kits, as the first Metalmodels, Mallard Models and Colin Waite kits appeared, and that was it. Once I had built etched kits I no longer wanted to build anything else. There were many 'pain-barriers' to go through but these were as nothing to the satisfaction gained. My models were my own, and everyone else's were different and that was what mattered - I had stamped my individuality upon them.

 

That is one hobby and I'd call that modelling. Buying and running RTR is another hobby in some ways - although some posts on here allude to a happy marriage of the two. Whether just buying and running RTR is modelling is something I'll let others decide, but that it does not allow for, nor encourage, any personal development and growth as a modeller is surely undeniable.

 

As my own skills improved I got commisions and built up a business making models for others, but that was like hard work to me! - and so I got into kit production in 1979, and have made a living at it ever since, but expanding into other areas such as military kits [which interested me every bit as much as railways] was an essential part of surviving as purely a manufacturer.

 

So - moving onto that side of things, I would like to make the following observations based on the thirty nine years that have since elapsed. Now it may be that the ethos behind JLTRT was that if you could release kits that were easier to build than etched kits then you would dramatically increase your market. I see that - and no doubt it did, but obviously not by enough. I would think it might have added an extra 40% to the number of kits you might sell - but even if it was 100%, it would not have been enough, given the development costs that have been cited for some of these kits elsewhere. And this is the critical issue.

 

The way I have always approached this problem is as follows. I decide on the subject and then assess the total number of sales I think I'll acheive over a five year period [anything more is a bonus] - and I always take a pessimistic rather than an optimistic view on this. So if I decide that I'll sell 100 kits tops, then the development costs have to be in proportion to the sales and the cost of boxing each kit and of all the other costs [including allowing for VAT]. The setting of a price for the kit will also determine the likelihood of reaching that projected sales figure, and once this balancing act has been calculated, you have your budget. This budget will tell you how much you can spend on deveopment costs for a kit and how much the components of the kit must cost [and NOT exceed] because there has to be a good proportion of meat left on the bone for the manufacturer at the end of it all. That mark-up is sacrosanct if you have a wife, family and hungry border collies. I have NEVER spent more that £1500.00 on developing any kit, and that is how I've survived. To keep within a figure like this you must do all the work yourself [or have decent slaves!]. And if all this means that you can only produce metal kits - then so be it.

 

We all have to operate in a free market economy [other than the North Korean arm of my company!]. On this basis the likes of Slaters, myself, DJH and PRMRP could hardly complain when JLTRT came into the market and had the inevitable knock-on effect upon our sales. It didn't impact on me so much, as only 10-15% of my income was from railway kits anyway, and even those sales held up pretty well. By the same token however, JLTRT cannot complain when, in turn, they see their products duplicated by Heljan and Dapol etc. What goes around comes around. Competitive geese for the competitive gander!

 

It has been mentioned that if JLTRT had sold more kits they might have survived. Not necessarily. If you are losing money with each kit you sell then it is better to sell none.

 

It has been mentioned in a previous posting that what O Gauge needs are entry-level Airfix-like kits [and presumably at much lower prices than JLTRT!]. Well I'd say great, but you will need to find 10-20,000 'O-gaugers' all wanting the same loco in order to make it pay - dream on! I wish anyone good luck in finding those 10-20,000 7mm modellers. You'd have more chance of flying to the moon on a helium-filled party balloon.

 

David Parkins

Modern Motive Power

www.djparkins.com

 

You have a sound bussiness model to work on, despite having relatively low development costs on a kit they are of superb quality, and the fact that most kits are only two media (brass and white metal), combined with sound CAD development helps to make the kits of this quality at a fair price, and making enough profit for you.

 

I'm currently working on one of your 35t tank cars, and compared to a couple of other kits on my work bench (Celtic Connection SECR Dance Hall and Roxy Mouldings LBSCR 4 wheelers) its a real delight.

Despite being cheaper than the other 2 kits mentioned all the detail is present, and everything just fits without the need to fiddle and correct things.

The other 2 kits, being from old hand drawn designs have lots of issues with fitting and incorrect or missing detail, I consider those more as scratchbuilding aids, as I have to remake some parts to the correct size, add after market detail parts or have to make up complete brake rigging from scratch because detail on these is rudimentary at best.

This often means even trips to a preserved railway to get pictures and measurements of the real thing to get detail right.

 

So I only can give a very big thumb up for all the work you put in designing your kits, and still being able to sell them at the price they are with a decent profit for yourself.

[Hal Nail]

Unstarted JLTRT kits will probably start selling for above RRP soon if they aren't already.

 

Class 47/0 advertised on eBay for £1500 buy it now (or serious offers in excess of purchase price).

Edited March 13, 2018 by Hal Nail

[muddys-blues]

Class 47/0 advertised on eBay for £1500 buy it now (or serious offers in excess of purchase price).

 

I saw that on ebay last night ....  ...... this was whilst I was considering putting up my 24/0 kit for £900.00 ovno 

 

Best regards

Craig.

[Bezzy Oppo]

Class 47/0 advertised on eBay for £1500 buy it now (or serious offers in excess of purchase price).

 

Shameless. Tenner to charity says this kit will be available again in the not too distant future...

[polybear]

Class 47/0 advertised on eBay for £1500 buy it now (or serious offers in excess of purchase price).

 

That'll be Pete clearing out the stocks

[JeffP]

Further to David's post about development costs, who in their right mind authorised the development and release of the Clayton, or the LMS twins?

 

I could see the desire for decent models of 20, 24, 25, (not so much 26/7 or 33), 37, 40, 45/6 and 47, maybe even 50, since they got everywhere except the Southern. (Yes, the 50's did later, I know).

the 52 was always going to go down well, even when stacked against Heljan's offering, but seriously? The Clayton and the LMS Twins?

 

So IF, and I say IF, since I am not privy to any details, the sales of the better sellers were used to prop up development costs for those two, then either the business model is flawed, or someone was mis-informed. It's not like either had any common parts with other classes.

 

This was, after alll, one of the companies I tried to get to do "Falcon" for me, and was told it wouldn't sell enough.

What, and the Clayton would????

[Jol Wilkinson]

Further to David's post about development costs, who in their right mind authorised the development and release of the Clayton, or the LMS twins?

 

I could see the desire for decent models of 20, 24, 25, (not so much 26/7 or 33), 37, 40, 45/6 and 47, maybe even 50, since they got everywhere except the Southern. (Yes, the 50's did later, I know).

the 52 was always going to go down well, even when stacked against Heljan's offering, but seriously? The Clayton and the LMS Twins?

 

So IF, and I say IF, since I am not privy to any details, the sales of the better sellers were used to prop up development costs for those two, then either the business model is flawed, or someone was mis-informed. It's not like either had any common parts with other classes.

 

This was, after alll, one of the companies I tried to get to do "Falcon" for me, and was told it wouldn't sell enough.

What, and the Clayton would????

 

David's post raised two questions for me.

 

1. How do you reasonably accurately estimate potential sales for a kit?
2. How much does David value his labour rate at?

Having designed some 4mm model loco kits I have a little experience of time spent, costings, etc. and would find that interesting for comparison.

[polybear]

Maybe the business owner likes the prototype and wants one for him/herself?

[jjb1970]

Maybe the business owner likes the prototype and wants one for him/herself?

Probably very true for JLTRT.

[djparkins]

David's post raised two questions for me.

 

1. How do you reasonably accurately estimate potential sales for a kit?
2. How much does David value his labour rate at?

Having designed some 4mm model loco kits I have a little experience of time spent, costings, etc. and would find that interesting for comparison.

 

Well the answer to No.1 is really just experience and you will never get it right all of the time. The trick is to be right enough of the time. Always err on the side of caution though!

 

The answer to No.2 would be - not as highly as my accountant seems to rate his time - If he could, he'd pass on the cost of the very air he breathes!  think you have to be realistic and take your returns over time. You have to be in it for the long haul. The more of each kit you can sell, the greater the return you are going to get on the initial time spent on pattern-making etc. I'll be no more specific than that, but you have to take the long view and have enough products in the range to see these collective returns accruing over time, and these, together with your percentage mark-up on each kit sold is where your living comes from.

 

Many manufacturers these days seem happy to run their businesses as an adjunct to their main job. I've always been far too lazy to do that and have only ever been interested it it being my full living. Too old to change course now!

 

Regards

 

DJP

[Jol Wilkinson]

Well the answer to No.1 is really just experience and you will never get it right all of the time. The trick is to be right enough of the time. Always err on the side of caution though!

 

The answer to No.2 would be - not as highly as my accountant seems to rate his time - If he could, he'd pass on the cost of the very air he breathes!  think you have to be realistic and take your returns over time. You have to be in it for the long haul. The more of each kit you can sell, the greater the return you are going to get on the initial time spent on pattern-making etc. I'll be no more specific than that, but you have to take the long view and have enough products in the range to see these collective returns accruing over time, and these, together with your percentage mark-up on each kit sold is where your living comes from.

 

Many manufacturers these days seem happy to run their businesses as an adjunct to their main job. I've always been far too lazy to do that and have only ever been interested it it being my full living. Too old to change course now!

 

Regards

 

DJP

 

David,

 

even with twenty five years of helping a friend who is a 4mm kit supplier, getting it anywhere near right seems a lottery. One loco I designed was available in the 1850's and the rebuilt 1870's types. We thought they would sell 1:2, but actually sold 3:1. 

 

Yes, the long haul is the only way to see it, some kits selling very slowly after the first "rush". In 4mm some may take ten years to notch up 100 sales. 4mm has both the greater availability of differing RTR models, a consumer base that is seemingly less interested an building models, and a price culture driven by RTR prices. Often "I can buy a RTR model cheaper" is given as the reason for not building a kit, even for a model that doesn't exist in RTR. Perhaps 7mm has a more buoyant and financially viable kit market.

 

I was once asked by a kit supplier (he hadn't done any design work himself, but had adopted other products) to design a 7mm 2-4-0 loco kit with two tender versions, including the test builds, amendments and instructions. I had no knowledge of the loco and although some very good drawings were available I would have to spend a little time on research. I estimated it would take about 200 hours altogether and even at £10/hour (I am comfortably retired so I didn't need the income) the enquirer decided it wasn't viable. 

 

Jol

[John Tomlinson]

When Little Loco Co started rereleasing the old Right Price 03 and 04 kits I had five or six times the number of enquiries about producing them ready-built. Right then I knew where the market was.

 

Good kits are enjoyable to build and own, but it is a significant investment in time and skills, and if you're not able - for whatever reason - to make that investment, kits are not a cheap or convenient option. The tone that implies modellers who don't or can't build kits are lazy or worthless makes no account for their personal circumstances.

 

It's not just fluids and electricity that follow the path of least resistance, people do too.

 

That's a very informative posting, and says it all.

 

Surely one major point here is that 7mm is following the path of 4mm, lagged by 10 - 15 years. Once upon a time, there were few RTR models, and even fewer that were much good, and so kit building was essential. Now it isn't, and anyone can buy a fleet of decent RTR diesels for somewhat less than an equivalent kit. Although the detail quality may not be so good, certainly not compared to the MMP examples, you can now waggle a credit card and have something with a good factory finish that works - if it doesn't you simply send it back!

 

The comment by Mr Waterman that he has another scheme in mind is interesting, maybe very high end kits aimed at those for whom the pleasure is in building rather than owning or running, provided they have the skill and patience of course. I for one wish him well, and perhaps we should be thanking him for expending his cash in funding losses, and more broadly for the enthusiasm and positive PR he's brought to the hobby.

 

John.

[Jol Wilkinson]

 

Surely one major point here is that 7mm is following the path of 4mm, lagged by 10 - 15 years. Once upon a time, there were few RTR models, and even fewer that were much good, and so kit building was essential. Now it isn't, and anyone can buy a fleet of decent RTR diesels for somewhat less than an equivalent kit. Although the detail quality may not be so good, certainly not compared to the MMP examples, you can now waggle a credit card and have something with a good factory finish that works - if it doesn't you simply send it back!

 

 

John.

John,

 

sadly the downside is that layouts become less varied, more standardised and less representative as people use what is available, not what would be appropriate. I've increasingly seen  00 and N layouts at shows with incompatible collections of locos and stock in setting that are otherwise realistically modelled.

 

Even with RTR and DCC, it seems some "modellers" can't cope with simple running "issues". The loss of skills and "common sense" that building your own models helps to develop, is something to regret.

 

Jol

[John Tomlinson]

John,

 

sadly the downside is that layouts become less varied, more standardised and less representative as people use what is available, not what would be appropriate. I've increasingly seen  00 and N layouts at shows with incompatible collections of locos and stock in setting that are otherwise realistically modelled.

 

Even with RTR and DCC, it seems some "modellers" can't cope with simple running "issues". The loss of skills and "common sense" that building your own models helps to develop, is something to regret.

 

Jol

 

Jol, I completely agree with you. At risk of sounding hypocritical as I've never been involved with an exhibition layout, I increasingly find exhibitions quite tedious, and for me the main value of them is to stock up on items from the smaller suppliers.

 

I agree as well about the impact of the loss of skills and common sense, for me modelling has always been a learning process about the prototype as well as the direct modelling input, and I'd challenge anyone to succesfully build a kit of something without being wiser at the end as to the history and function of the prototype.

 

What you describe however isn't the fault of the RTR product, but rather the operators. RTR product can be turned into something quite appealing, with a bit of detailing, weathering, individual numbering, coal in tender etc., and in 4mm discarding the hideous couplings. Just that many exhibitors don't seem to bother....

 

John.

Edited March 14, 2018 by John Tomlinson