JLTRT

[johnarcher]

Jol, I completely agree with you. At risk of sounding hypocritical as I've never been involved with an exhibition layout, I increasingly find exhibitions quite tedious, and for me the main value of them is to stock up on items from the smaller suppliers.

 

I agree as well about the impact of the loss of skills and common sense, for me modelling has always been a learning process about the prototype as well as the direct modelling input, and I'd challenge anyone to succesfully build a kit of something without being wiser at the end as to the history and function of the prototype.

 

What you describe however isn't the fault of the RTR product, but rather the operators. RTR product can be turned into something quite appealing, with a bit of detailing, weathering, individual numbering, coal in tender etc., and in 4mm discarding the hideous couplings. Just that many exhibitors don't seem to bother....

 

John.

I agree with both of you.

Including the last paragraph above - if there has been that personal input into the RTR objects then there is something of interest to look at that is not just identical to all the rest (similar to something someone has made, to a lesser extent), if there hasn't been why pay to get into an exhibition to see unaltered models you could see for nothing in a shop?

[djparkins]

I was once asked by a kit supplier (he hadn't done any design work himself, but had adopted other products) to design a 7mm 2-4-0 loco kit with two tender versions, including the test builds, amendments and instructions. I had no knowledge of the loco and although some very good drawings were available I would have to spend a little time on research. I estimated it would take about 200 hours altogether and even at £10/hour (I am comfortably retired so I didn't need the income) the enquirer decided it wasn't viable. 

 

Jol

 

I do sympathise - £10.00 an hour is not a worthwhile remuneration! I'm sitting here thinking of something I would do for £10.00 per hour and I've come up with one thing only - eating king prawns and smoked salmon!

 

DJP/MMP

[Hal Nail]

I'm sitting here thinking of something I would do for £10.00 per hour and I've come up with one thing only - eating king prawns and smoked salmon!

 

DJP/MMP

If anyone fancies doing some property accounting at those rates I’m more than happy to subcontract my job.

[polybear]

If anyone fancies doing some property accounting at those rates I’m more than happy to subcontract my job.

I can count houses for a tenner an hour

[Osgood]

I can count houses for a tenner an hour

I can eat a damn sight more than £10 worth of king prawns and smoked salmon an hour

 

[RandyWales]

 

The comment by Mr Waterman that he has another scheme in mind is interesting, maybe very high end kits aimed at those for whom the pleasure is in building rather than owning or running, provided they have the skill and patience of course. I for one wish him well, and perhaps we should be thanking him for expending his cash in funding losses, and more broadly for the enthusiasm and positive PR he's brought to the hobby.

 

John.

Hi John....

I think a new scheme involving very high end kits is extremely unlikely if you read the detail.

PW states that the plan is to provide the best models for discerning modellers and collectors.

I know most of us collect kits with the intention of building them (eventually), but I would be amazed if there were people out there who actually 'collect kits' with no intention of building them.

Randall

[F-UnitMad]

Hi John....

I think a new scheme involving very high end kits is extremely unlikely if you read the detail.

PW states that the plan is to provide the best models for discerning modellers and collectors.

 

I dunno; whenever anyone advertises anything for "Discerning" customers, it usually means "fabulously wealthy" vis-s-vis "high end" products.

If anything, the "high end" of O Scale, with Lee Marsh, Loveless etc offering brass models that cost more than many of the cars I've bought over the years, would be an even smaller and tougher market to get involved in!

[alfsboy]

As a sculptor of figure masters  and other patterns in brass and other materials I have had several  potential customers almost faint on the other end of the phone when I quoted a very reasonable price for a figure  or other work .I would have rapidly starved doing them any cheaper .i notice that neither seemed to have found any other poor sod to do them .

[MarcD]

Modellers of any gauge have to ask themselves a single question.

 

Do I value the work that is put into making either the kit or finished model?

 

If the answer is yes then you pay.

If you answer no then you don't pay.

 

Cheap mass produced imported models are just that, identical models. In the real world you can get a 10 photos of the same type of wagon and each one will be different. This can't be done with mass production. 

 

We all to greater or lesser degree have champagne tastes with lemonade pockets and have to cut our cloth to suit. In industry there is a concept of the "Quality Triangle" it trades off Quality, time and cost. ie if you want something that is cheap and in quick time the quality will be poor (Mass produced model), if you want some thing that is of high quality but low cost then its going to take a long time to make it (Scratch/Kit built) or if you want something of high quality in a short space of time then you have to pay a high price (Hand Built). 

 

Marc

[RandyWales]

Modellers of any gauge have to ask themselves a single question.

 

Do I value the work that is put into making either the kit or finished model?

 

If the answer is yes then you pay.

If you answer no then you don't pay.

 

Cheap mass produced imported models are just that, identical models. In the real world you can get a 10 photos of the same type of wagon and each one will be different. This can't be done with mass production. 

 

We all to greater or lesser degree have champagne tastes with lemonade pockets and have to cut our cloth to suit. In industry there is a concept of the "Quality Triangle" it trades off Quality, time and cost. ie if you want something that is cheap and in quick time the quality will be poor (Mass produced model), if you want some thing that is of high quality but low cost then its going to take a long time to make it (Scratch/Kit built) or if you want something of high quality in a short space of time then you have to pay a high price (Hand Built). 

 

Marc

Hi Marc....

 

Myself and others can't argue with your comments about the actual costs of development, assembly etc.

 

However, from the viewpoint of the potential customer, there is another factor I would apply....that of value for money.

 

As an example, on another forum, I asked for help locating someone who could provide a set of gates - those ubiquitous station barrier scissor gates (for 7mm scale).

 

I received a reply from a chap who works with Pete Waterman on Leamington Spa. He told me they have bespoke-built scissor gates in the station on Leamington - printed on a 3D SLA printer. He obtained permission to supply from Pete and I was quoted £40 for a single set of gates (I need a pair).

 

There was no way in the world I was going to pay that much (VFM), so I set about providing my own.

 

I downloaded Fusion 360 (the latest version of AutoCad) for free and set about creating my own 3D drawings.

 

I probably have an advantage insomuch I have recently retired after a 45 year career in IT so I have been this situation many times before. After a couple of nights struggling with the concepts I finally got my head around it and came up with a drawing I am happy with (part of which is displayed below).

 

I then had to decide how to produce them. I considered buying my own SLA printer with a view to selling them to interested parties (after testing the water for demand of course). I discounted buying a cheaper standard 3D printer as the finish quality wasn't up to scratch.

 

I also PM'ed Stephen Leathers from LLC as he has a new Injection Moulding capability and he provided me with what I thought was a very interesting quote.

 

However, I soon realised the difficulties you described in your post, insomuch from my own point of view, I concluded the £40 is cheap if you want something.

 

However, I am still not buying the Leamington gates, as I now have an insight into the actual cost on this item from the point of view of design which is constantly highlighted as the most costly part of the production cycle.

 

I will probably end up sending them to Shapeways, although everything is currently off the table due to illness.

 

 

On the issue of your points regarding R-T-R over kit/handbuilt I am satisfied with the standard of most (not all) of my not-so-cheap off the shelf models.

 

What I do object to though, is the attitude of some more affluent modellers out there.

 

I am (or soon to be, was) a member of the Gauge 0 Guild, and there was recently a very rigourously contested thread regarding the cost of high end ready to run (handbuilt) models.

 

We are talking £thousands.

 

However, the thread went on to cover all aspects of ready to run, where people chipped in about a lot of the very same issues you have highlighted in your post.

 

Some of the 'debate' got very heated and I took offence to one post by an obviously wealthy member who said:

——————————————

Expensive RTR (and as an aside - brexit) - seems to me to be just 'sour grapes' - a very British malaise.

 

As Michael Cain said when he drove a Rolls in America he was applauded, whereas here in the 'wonderfull UK' some wanted to kick his head in.

 

Most people in this country attain their money through their own graft. If you do not like it then keep your opinions to your self.

——————————————

He was obviously implying that anyone who is not wealthy is jealous.

 

In my naive ignorance (having for 45 years complied with strict email and Social Media protocols regarding the causing of offence to others), I called him out and was promptly flamed by several other members.

 

The vitriol that is flying around in the UNMODERATED Gauge 0 Guild forum is obscene.

 

Sorry for this rant to conclude my post....blame the medication.

 

Randall

 

 

 

[Dava]

Randall,

 

"The vitriol that is flying around in the UNMODERATED Gauge 0 Guild forum is obscene."

 

It may be spirited but I have not seen any obscene posts, so far. I don't think there is that level of imagination. Mainly a lot of old timers who need to get things more in proportion?

 

Good for you to design & make your own gates rather than pay 'the man'.

 

Dava

[MarcD]

Randall

Good work on the gates. I would upload them to shapways and then make them available to the general public. Someone else might buy some. It's what we have done, with all the parts for our kits that are printed or any thing I design for myself that isn't worthwhile bringing out as kits.

You have shown, yourself, that you have the skills to design your own stuff. Keep going.

 

As for the Guild forum I have been told, having never been on it, that it is full of people who are quick to put anyone down who is doing anything but are not keen to do anything themselves.

 

I have also been told that they mostly drink the finest acid in the "Pedent and Armchair" at the weekend.

 

Marc

[Marshall5]

 

As for the Guild forum I have been told, having never been on it, that it is full of people who are quick to put anyone down who is doing anything but are not keen to do anything themselves.

 

I have also been told that they mostly drink the finest acid in the "Pedent and Armchair" at the weekend.

 

Marc

If you've "never been on it" how can your comments be taken seriously?

I am a regular reader and contributor to the G0G Forum and can assure you that the people you describe are a tiny minority who one can choose to ignore.  The vast majority of Forum make positive contributions and go out of their way to assist other modellers.

Ray.

[Horsetan]

I dunno; whenever anyone advertises anything for "Discerning" customers, it usually means "fabulously wealthy" vis-s-vis "high end" products.

If anything, the "high end" of O Scale, with Lee Marsh, Loveless etc offering brass models that cost more than many of the cars I've bought over the years, would be an even smaller and tougher market to get involved in!

^^

100% this.

[rob D2]

I dunno; whenever anyone advertises anything for "Discerning" customers, it usually means "fabulously wealthy" vis-s-vis "high end" products.

If anything, the "high end" of O Scale, with Lee Marsh, Loveless etc offering brass models that cost more than many of the cars I've bought over the years, would be an even smaller and tougher market to get involved in!

 

American collectors ?

[Horsetan]

American collectors ?

Russian oligarchs? .... oh wait...hang on...

[Allegheny1600]

However, I soon realised the difficulties you described in your post, insomuch from my own point of view, I concluded the £40 is cheap if you want something.

 

However, I am still not buying the Leamington gates, as I now have an insight into the actual cost on this item from the point of view of design which is constantly highlighted as the most costly part of the production cycle.

 

Randall

 

558B2B17-7B73-4387-BA7A-4A2D0EC3B071.png

Dear Randall,

I have followed this thread from the beginning so I'm not just jumping in here or trolling (I hope!). I was saddened by the JLTRT announcement even though I no longer model in 0. 

Nice gates by the way and well done for doing it yourself.

What surprised me is that after doing all the research and development of your own gates, you were able to conclude that the Leamington gates are (relatively) cheap but you're still not going to buy theirs - fair enough, you want to use your own. I'd be very, very interested to see how much Shapeways will charge you because I know very well that their printing is not cheap, I rather suspect you may well pay more than £40!

Then you mention about falling out with someone for their "sour grapes" comment!

The irony!

 

John.

[MarcD]

If you've "never been on it" how can your comments be taken seriously?

I am a regular reader and contributor to the G0G Forum and can assure you that the people you describe are a tiny minority who one can choose to ignore.  The vast majority of Forum make positive contributions and go out of their way to assist other modellers.

Ray.

Ray,

I might not have been on the Forum but I do know what is said as my father and a number of my friends go on it and they have shown me some of the very negative things that have been said. 

Marc

[jjb1970]

American collectors ?

The situation for brass models in the US has changed in recent years primarily as a result of the rise of super detailed RTR but for many years brass models made in Asia were very much part of the mainstream US hobby and not the preserve of wealthy collectors (although clearly they were never cheap). They occupied a very different space to high end brass in Europe from producers such as Lemaco, Fulgurex, Loveless etc.

[Poggy1165]

We all of us have a modelling budget. It's just that they vary in size.

 

Were I a multi-millionaire, I would not blink at paying £3000-£4000 for a model, or even more if the quality warranted it. Unfortunately I am not, so I have to settle for less. It's really that simple. This is why it is a great advantage to have the skills in your own fingers to build whatever you want. I don't have that either, unfortunately.

 

There is obviously a market for these "high end" models; the only question is, how big is it? 

 

Speaking for myself, I shall muddle through no matter what happens. The trade has been expanding and contracting for years, and new technology is already making some of the old stuff look as obsolete as a horse tram. The hobby will go on.

[Anglian]

I'd take issue with that chap on the O gauge forum – I'd suggest most of those who are seriously wealthy in the UK have inherited their wealth or a significant proportion of it.

 

Your gates – having seen the image and understood what they are wouldn't it have been easier to do them in brass etch as one piece? On the artwork you can specify for the etch to only go half way through the sheet from either side. That would give you the relief you need. The basic artwork would be quick to draw as it's just a repeat pattern. The artwork could be distorted to give a half open version as well. There was a brilliant article in a back issue of MRJ which I bought specifically for this information on setting up artwork for etching, as I thought I'd use it one day.

[jjb1970]

You needn't be rich to buy high end models, there are plenty on RMWeb who appear to buy lots of OO models and pre-order this that and everything. If you cut back and buy very selectively then I think many on this board could buy high end brass models, OK they'd have fewer models but those they did buy would be extremely nice. That's basically what I do, I collect HO brass models of North American and Japanese prototypes and I suspect I spend less on model trains than many.

[Joseph_Pestell]

 

There is obviously a market for these "high end" models; the only question is, how big is it? 

 

 

 

In a sense, it does not matter what the size of the market is, so long as it supports the costs of producing the model.

 

By way of an example, a UK artisan made a bespoke Gauge 1 10-coach train for a German customer. He quoted a price that covered all his development/tooling costs (mostly etched brass and lost wax castings) on that one model, a price which the customer was very happy with.

 

As it happens, once others saw the model, he ended up selling many more, but still at the same price, so very profitable.

[Craigw]

You needn't be rich to buy high end models, there are plenty on RMWeb who appear to buy lots of OO models and pre-order this that and everything. If you cut back and buy very selectively then I think many on this board could buy high end brass models, OK they'd have fewer models but those they did buy would be extremely nice. That's basically what I do, I collect HO brass models of North American and Japanese prototypes and I suspect I spend less on model trains than many.

 

Yes but you saying that does not support the prejudice they complain about and return in spades does it?

 

In the 1980s when I was modelling New South Wales Railways in HO scale you purchased brass locos or did with out. There was no RTR or alternative.

 

A lot of the smaller locos like the 517s and Prairies are not that expensive and personally I would rather have one or two very good models than shelves full of mediocrity.

 

Each to there own. 

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

[Osgood]

Back to JLTRT, does anyone have any idea how many folk are out there who have pre paid for kits and who are now creditors?

I have heard of two but imagine there may be quite a few more?