Trip Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 (edited) I've just received a Piko 57305 which has a built-in decoder. There is a manual for the decoder in English which says it's NMRA compatible. It also says Decodertype: 76 320. DCC manufacturer id 76 is Auvidel, a German company, which makes sense. On the programming track every CV is set to 255. Writing new values appears to work but reading them back suggests it hasn't taken. I thought I'd try using it with the default address (which the manual says is 3) and putting on the layout causes an instant short. Normally when I'm totally baffled by something on the layout it's because I've done something really stupid. Any ideas? Edited February 17, 2018 by Trip Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelp Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 Sorry I can't offer any help but it might be better to keep the loco off the layout until you discover what is wrong or until you are able to write and read the Cvs correctly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 Yep, it got removed immediately and hasn't been put back. It doesn't cause a short on the programming track incidentally. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted February 17, 2018 Author Share Posted February 17, 2018 It's actually a Piko 57305, not a 57691 per the title. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWG Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 Have you made any progress? You write that you have "just received" the ICE. Where did it come from? If it is new, consult the seller. If not, can you find out if it previously ran satisfactorily? From your short description is does not seem likely that you have done anything stupid. It is likely that the fault is somewhere in the ICE, so I suggest that you take the decoder out and check for short circuits with a multimeter (if you do not have one, buy one - it is an essential tool). I doubt if the decoder is made by Auvidel. That firm may have an NMRA number but I have never heard of them ever producing anything for DCC. They do not appear to have a website, but I found a mention of them saying that they are software developers specialising in programmes for films and radio. 76320 is the catalogue number of an Uhlenbrock decoder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Ava_Hay Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 It's actually a Piko 57305, not a 57691 per the title. [/size] A quick search has revealed that this unit operates on 16 Volts AC which is a popular European voltage In other words this is probably an analogue loco with a load controlling chip that is likely not actually programmable and certainly not at the small current used by the programming track. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 (edited) A quick search has revealed that this unit operates on 16 Volts AC which is a popular European voltage In other words this is probably an analogue loco with a load controlling chip that is likely not actually programmable and certainly not at the small current used by the programming track. And being for AC implies that it is a 3 rail model for Maerklin layouts. Certainly one retailer, Raynaulds, describes it as being a decoder fitted model for the Maerklin 3 rail system. Maerklin have their own digital protocols, MM, and mfx. I don't know if the decoders that Piko use also support DCC. Edited February 19, 2018 by GoingUnderground Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony_S Posted February 19, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 19, 2018 And being for AC implies that it is a 3 rail model for Maerklin layouts. Certainly one retailer describes it as beong a decooder fitted model for the Maerklin 3 rail system. Maerklin have their own digitsl protocols MM, and and mfx. I don't know if the decoders that Piko use also support DCC. Looking online suggests the Piko product is compatible with the Marklin system. So it will produce a short if put on a 2 rail DC or DCC system as the left and right wheels are connected, not insulated from each other. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 (edited) Looking online suggests the Piko product is compatible with the Marklin system. So it will produce a short if put on a 2 rail DC or DCC system as the left and right wheels are connected, not insulated from each other.Absolutely. But it may still be able to run on a 2 rail system. It all depends on how Piko designed it. Did they start out with a 2 rail model and adapt thst single design with insulated wheelsets to 3 rail by adding a centre rail collector skate and electrically interconnecting the wheels? Or is it a full blown 3 rail model with non-insulated wheels which would need replacing with insulated wheels before it could run on 2 rai track? Some european modellers do have 3 rail systrms but use DCC, and you did say that the instruction leaflet said the decoder was NMRA compatible. But that may just mean it will run on multiprotocol digital layouts, not that it is DCC capable. Edited February 19, 2018 by GoingUnderground Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Ava_Hay Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 Absolutely. But it may still be able to run on a 2 rail system. It all depends on how Piko designed it. Did they start out with a 2 rail model and adapt thst single design with insulated wheelsets to 3 rail by adding a centre rail collector skate and electrically interconnecting the wheels? Or is it a full blown 3 rail model with non-insulated wheels which would need replacing with insulated wheels before it could run on 2 rsil track? I thought this 3 rail system was designed to pick up from live overhead catenary? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony_S Posted February 19, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 19, 2018 I thought this 3 rail system was designed to pick up from live overhead catenary? No, a central stud contact. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 (edited) In teply to Lady Ava, No, that,s not what it means. It's 3 rail as in Hornby Dublo 3 rail. Hornby Dublo 3 rail track was very similar to Maerklin 3 rail track of the time. Hornby changed to 2 rail whilst Maerklin stuck to 3 rail but replaced the centre rail with stud contacts. But you can still have collection from live catenary on a 3 rail system. British Trix managed it in 1959 with their EM1/Class 76 evrn though their locos weren't, strictly speaking, 3 rail. Most continental brands either offer both 2 and 3 rsil versions of their locos, I think Roco do this, whilst others, such as ESU, sell a 2 rail model designed for easy conversion to 3 rail and include the parts to do so. Makes sense to me as that way retailets only have to stock one version. The other complication with Maerklin models is that like Trix, they started with AC, but unlike Trix who chsnged to DC, they stayed with AC, and still use it in their non-digital models. AC motors don't have permanent magnets. So some continental european models AC versions have DC motors and decoders that will run on AC. I believe Brawa does this as their AC locos are more expensive than their DC ones. Edited February 19, 2018 by GoingUnderground Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John ks Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 Got a ESU HO class 66, out of the box it is 3rail AC/DCC, remove the skate & it is 2 rail DC/NMRA DCC Very clever bit of kit & priced to suit John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tetsudofan Posted February 20, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 20, 2018 Looking at the Piko website 57305 is listed as an AC-fitted model produced for the AC market and is not designed for working on DC or DCC. The model is still listed on the AC section of the Piko website but when you look at the DC section of the website the DC version is not listed, they are only showing the Chinese and Russian versions so I would assume that the DC version has sold out at Piko. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 If you want a DCC 2 rail ICE 3, then your best bet might be to buy Piko's new SmartControl Light 59006 starter set when it goes on sale later this year at EUR239.99. The Piko website describes it as being for "Gleichstrom" power which means it has a DC motor, but being a SmartControl Light starter set it will be DCC, and the track in the set is 2 rail. You could always sell on the track and SmartControl Light kit to get some of the cost back. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted February 20, 2018 Author Share Posted February 20, 2018 Thanks all. As many of you worked out this model only runs on Marklin AC track. So the very stupid thing I had suspected I'd done turns out to be buying the wrong fking loco. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 Thanks all. As many of you worked out this model only runs on Marklin AC track. So the very stupid thing I had suspected I'd done turns out to be buying the wrong fking loco.An easy mistske to make for UK based UK prototype OO gauge modellers like me. For us, 3 rail ended in 1964 with the demise of Dublo, and low voltage (15V) AC is only used for powering solenoids and signals. Very few of us even realise that British Trix used low voltage AC track power until the mid/late 1950s. It wasn't until I visited Bercher & Strenlicht in Basel about 10 years ago that I realised how popular Maerklin was outside the UK and that they still used stud contact 3 rail AC. Also seeing every loco in their display cases marked as 2 rail or DC, or 3 rail or AC brought home to me how important it was to make sure I was buying the right version for my "souvenir". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted February 22, 2018 Author Share Posted February 22, 2018 Well, quite. I bought it from the UK ebay site but from a German vendor. He has agreed to refund me, which he really had no choice about, but I have not been able to persuade him that selling this item in the UK without clearly stating, in English, that it will not work on any track somebody in the UK is likely to have is going to cause him (and his customers) trouble. Never mind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 (edited) Well, quite. I bought it from the UK ebay site but from a German vendor. He has agreed to refund me, which he really had no choice about, but I have not been able to persuade him that selling this item in the UK without clearly stating, in English, that it will not work on any track somebody in the UK is likely to have is going to cause him (and his customers) trouble. Never mind. I guess that they're so used to the hobby being a mix of 2 rail DC or DCC, or 3 rail AC or MM or mfx that they work on the basis that the customer will have always checked that they're ordering the right model. If they've never been over here they won't realise how different the OO/HO hobby is over here with 3 Rail AC being used by Maerklin enthusiasts only, and they're probably an endangered species.. If you're still after a 2 rail ICE 3, there are some of the 57194 analogue starter sets on ebay from german sellers. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PIKO-57194-Startset-Ice-3-dB-with-DSS-H0-BRAND-NEW/132103686305?epid=2257505513&hash=item1ec1fe48a1:g:2ZUAAOSwmuVadK0Y and https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PIKO-57194-ICE-3-DB-Just-Ice-with-DSS-for-H0-BRAND-NEW/132103686313?hash=item1ec1fe48a9:g:Fi0AAOSwDApadK0S Just make sure that in the product description the power (Stromversorgung) is Gleichstrom, and the control (Steuerng) is Analog, or if Digital it is DCC not MM or mfx. I'mnot aware of anyone selling new 3 rail DC or DCC kit. If the description says 3L short for 3 Leiter meaning it's 3 rail, or the power (Stromversorgung) is Wechselstrom meaning AC, then it's not for you. But you will have to chip it yourself. If you don't fancy doing that, there are also some 2 rail DCC sound fitted models on ebay with ESU Loksound V4 decoders.from starter sets, the rest of the set will have been the Piko SmartControl (ESU Style) which will have been sold on separately. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PIKO-59114-ICE-Spur-HO-Digital-DCC-mit-Sound-ICE-3-4-teilig-DB-AG/381993832773?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D49926%26meid%3D440b87b506e34dab8748703ed511285e%26pid%3D100623%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D5%26sd%3D132495486560%26itm%3D381993832773&_trksid=p2047675.c100623.m-1. Good hunting it you're still after one. Edited February 22, 2018 by GoingUnderground Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted February 23, 2018 Author Share Posted February 23, 2018 That's absolutely fantastic GU, thanks very much. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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