Creating a believable freelance pre-Group company

[LNWR18901910]

What about West Midlands Railway based on the train service running in my hometown Kenilworth right now? It was either that or the Great North Western Railway.

[Corbs]

13 hours ago, LNWR18901910 said:

What about West Midlands Railway based on the train service running in my hometown Kenilworth right now? It was either that or the Great North Western Railway.

Have you seen Niles' version of the WMR and the London and Mid Western Railway?

[LNWR18901910]

32 minutes ago, Corbs said:

Have you seen Niles' version of the WMR and the London and Mid Western Railway?

I have and it's interesting.

[whart57]

Well it's been a while, but finally something to show for the London and Surrey railway. I don't think a fully fledged layout will ever appear but I am building a train that can be used as a demonstrator. The carriages have got as far as the initial paint run

 

In the end I went for dark brown and ivory rather than green.

 

As discussed earlier, all these carriages are based on vehicles built by various Birmingham carriage builders in the 1850s. From left to right they are a pair of thirds, the right hand one being more of a saloon internally rather than each "compartment" having its own door. Compartment in inverted commas because the seats are likely to have been benches in an otherwise open carriage. The carriage with the curved quarterlights is a first class and the remaining vehicles are a second class and what then have been called a road van.

 

The higher class carriages have Mansell wheels, the thirds and van still have spoked wheels. Again, not out of line with an 1860s time frame

 

These models are 3mm scale and on 14.2mm gauge finescale wheels

Edited October 6, 2020 by whart57

[whart57]

The loco hasn't got that far though

 

[Johnson044]

On 20/02/2018 at 14:44, Legend said:

I remember a layout in October 1972 Model Railway Constructor . It was the first model railway mag I ever got , I think it may have been a free offer if you sent away to Hornby or something like that! Anyway , one of the articles was on the locomotives of a freelance railway as you describe . The Stelwin Islands Railway, for some reason known as SIOG . I think he imagined they had their own language too! Locomotives were mainly 0-6-0 tender types with 0-6-2T for passenger . Livery was maroon with blue lining and the whole thing was set in an imaginary island with a main town called Manorbridge . The article was set out in a way that you could see an evolution of a family of locomotives . They weren't just locos from other companies re painted .

 

Perhaps others can remember the articles much better than me . I can't lay my hands on it but I'm sure it was Oct 72 if there is an archive

 

[Johnson044]

Hi folks- I've really enjoyed this thread and find it hugely inspiring.  I've found a copy of the MRC article, which I've scanned. I don't know if there was ever an article on the layout itself or what became of these wonderful models. The whole ethos of the article is one of scratchbuilding at minimal expens- but the end results are high in quality and pretty convincing.

MRC_SIOG_Article.pdf

[Johnson044]

On 13/03/2018 at 17:10, JimC said:

 

 

Well, here's something literally thrown together. Many bits are just resting on each other which is why it looks so very crooked... I hope... Has a Dapol City died in vain, or does this look vaguely like a generic 2-4-0 and its worth finishing it off and writing London & Surrey on the side?

 

 

I do think the rolled up plasticard stovepipe "chimney" and the terrier dome go a way towards making it look less GWR. The smaller dome especially. Just need some ramsbottom safety valves. [and a lot more skill and concentration!]

 

[Johnson044]

Just now, Johnson044 said:

I've just found the picture of the 2-4-0 created using a Dapol City as a basis and it struck a chord- I've a part-made Gooch tender in 0 gauge that I was planning to use for a freelance loco. These tenders are quite long for their day and if you took away the underframe and added bogies it would start to take on a more freelance aspect- in 4mm you could use two City leading bogies (it might still look a bit GW) but in 7mm I might do something slightly different?

On 20/02/2018 at 14:44, Legend said:

I remember a layout in October 1972 Model Railway Constructor . It was the first model railway mag I ever got , I think it may have been a free offer if you sent away to Hornby or something like that! Anyway , one of the articles was on the locomotives of a freelance railway as you describe . The Stelwin Islands Railway, for some reason known as SIOG . I think he imagined they had their own language too! Locomotives were mainly 0-6-0 tender types with 0-6-2T for passenger . Livery was maroon with blue lining and the whole thing was set in an imaginary island with a main town called Manorbridge . The article was set out in a way that you could see an evolution of a family of locomotives . They weren't just locos from other companies re painted .

 

Perhaps others can remember the articles much better than me . I can't lay my hands on it but I'm sure it was Oct 72 if there is an archive

 

[relaxinghobby]

I too found this article in an old pile of magazines bought at an exhibition.

It showed me I can choose and build locos based on historic prototypes from the commercial manufacturers back in the day.

So for examples these are all based on Sharp Stewart and Co locomotive in the 1880s to 1900s and used by many small railways at home and abroad. Ideal for a home brewed freelance railway.

A little 2-4-0 tank built from a Gem kit on an Only Trains chassis.

2 small 0-6-0s built from Lima H0 chassis and bodies.

I'm struggling with a small 4-4-0 at the moment.

These are all tender driven using motor bogies for power. Apart from the tank loco.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 20, 2020 by relaxinghobby

[Johnson044]

The Lima 4F is actually quite a useful starting point for a small 0-6-0 - the width is about right for 4mm but the overall proportions, being HO are not too far out for a small Furness / Cambrian or similar Sharp Stewart. I do like the raised firebox version that you've built. Maybe a similar raised firebox will work for the 4-4-0 as well. It still puzzles me why the 009 or 0/16.5 fraternity allow themselves so much more freedom than people who model the standard gauge. Narrow gauge freelance locos are very common but as soon as we get into the realm of 4' 8 1/2" we become so much more inhibited. 

 

By becoming your own CME you can re-write history as you see fit and no Midland, GW or LNWR expert can point out your wrong-doings. 

[RedGemAlchemist]

4 minutes ago, Johnson044 said:

The Lima 4F is actually quite a useful starting point for a small 0-6-0

Indeed - I recently turned a 4F body shell @Corbs gave me into an LNER J17. You can do a lot with basic elements if you know what you're doing.

Edited November 23, 2020 by RedGemAlchemist

[Johnson044]

I'm really enjoying this thread, which I find very refreshing and rather liberating. Thank you for helping me keep the Black Dog at bay. Made a start over the furtive season on a project that has sat in boxes for the last seven years or so. a small double-framed goods in 0 gauge, largely from accumulated bits, which dictate wheel size (old Slater's 4F tender wheels), wheelbase (Slater's Midland 1F coupling rods), boiler (SER Kits resin 01) plus odds and sods. Frames and other bits etched from Autocad artwork done during lunch breaks at work and etched by PPD of lochgilphead- who are BRILLIANT! A long way to go but I'm quite pleased with progress. I made the smokebox wrapper using a borrowed rivetting press. Must buy one when the boat comes in. Another long wait now as promised DIY jobs must take priority.

[Edwardian]

Excellent.  Please keep us posted

[Johnson044]

Thought I'd make a gentle start on the tender for the 0-6-0. I don't particularly enjoy making tenders so tend to force myself to make a start on the tender fairly early on otherwise I'll leave it to the end and it won't get done as I'll start another project. Here are the bits I've accumulated- actually I've a rear buffer beam, too, but this isn't shown. The upper works consist of a rather beautifully made Webb LNWR tank that came from ebay (it had a pair of diamond framed bogies and looked like someone had used it behind an American 4-4-0 - it probably looked about right!). I've removed the tool boxes, which can go on something else and the coal rails, and the footplate will be moved backwards so that a toolbox can go on the back next to the buffer beam like a Terrier. Hopefully the tender body will then start to look a little less like a product of Crewe or Wolverton. The wheels are Slaters 3'7" carriage wheels and I've put some brass tubing sleeves over the 1/8" axles to make them closer to scale diameter (the Slaters tender wheels have 3 / 16" axles and they always look a bit massive to me). The frames are from the etches that I had made and the axleboxes, brake standard and filler cap are from Laurie Griffin. I found a spare spectacle plate from a previous 4-4-0 project and I'll fit that with some angled stays to give the crew some weather protection when running in reverse. The brake hangers and shoes are brass ones from Alan Gibson- not sure what they were intended for but I think they'll fit. Some Nitromors on the tender body this evening hopefully. 

[ianathompson]

On 23/11/2020 at 17:37, Johnson044 said:

Narrow gauge freelance locos are very common but as soon as we get into the realm of 4' 8 1/2" we become so much more inhibited. 

 

Having only recently clicked onto this thread I have probably missed the boat, as usual.

I certainly could give some interesting replies to the comments about the Great North of Scotland Railway, but as they were made two years ago it seems a little bit pointless.

 

Turning to  the quote, and the examining the perceived inhibitions in standard gauge locomotive modelling:

 

The variety in designs of standard gauge locomotives is restricted by the loading gauge , as opposed to the track gauge.

The relatively small gauge adopted by British railways meant that there literally was not much room for development.

In any case too much deviation from a period's design norms would mark a SG railway as an outlier and probably destroy any attempts at credibility.

As a crude example Edwardian railways used 0-6-0s as their standard freight locos pulling relatively short trains of loose coupled goods wagons at low speeds.

These obviously sufficed because they were a common choice.

Any-one trying to palm off a 2-10-2 tank locomotive pulling a long train of air braked wagons at high speed as their Edwardian independent railway's typical freight train 

would defy credulity, because they would be deviating too far from expectations.

 

Turn to the narrow gauge and there are fewer restrictions to inhibit development.

There were many different track gauges and loading gauges preventing the development of a standard design, on common carrier railways at any rate.

One only needs to llok at the variety of wheel arrangements used on the Irish NG to see this.

The general rule of thumb was that NG stock could be 2.5 to 3 times the width of the track gauge, something obviously unattainable on the SG.

Occasionally traffic demands might require a "big" loco to pull what could easily be hauled by the SG 0-6-0.

The Londonderry & Lough Swilly 4-8-0s and 4-8-4Ts come to mind, as well as the County Donegal.s 2-6-4Ts.

It is easier to put more driving wheels under the NG loco and provide it with a relatively massive boiler within the loading gauge.

This gives more scope for diversity, and that is before articulation is considered!

 

From personal experience, having modelled in NG for over forty years now, you might as well go the whole hog if you want an independent railway and go narrow gauge.

 

Ian T

 

 

 

 

Edited January 25, 2021 by ianathompson
additional info

[CKPR]

On 20/01/2021 at 17:57, Johnson044 said:

Webb LNWR tank that came from ebay (it had a pair of diamond framed bogies and looked like someone had used it behind an American 4-4-0

Funnily enough, when I was working on my 4mm M&CR tenders a couple of weeks ago, I actually got out one of my HO engines, a NWSL Baldwin 2-6-2, and noted that the tender body off this engine would have been a pretty good match for the 6 wheeled M&CR tender in 4mm. It was a similar Webb / Ramsbottom design and the difference in scale 'corrected' the difference in the sizes of the prototypes. 

Edited January 25, 2021 by CKPR

[Johnson044]

On 25/01/2021 at 09:02, CKPR said:

Funnily enough, when I was working on my 4mm M&CR tenders a couple of weeks ago, I actually got out one of my HO engines, a NWSL Baldwin 2-6-2, and noted that the tender body off this engine would have been a pretty good match for the 6 wheeled M&CR tender in 4mm. It was a similar Webb / Ramsbottom design and the difference in scale 'corrected' the difference in the sizes of the prototypes. 

This really set the cogwheels turning. There's definitely further potential here. Just at the close of the Nineteenth Century there was something of a locomotive famine and a number of American Moguls and some other types were imported into the UK- rather Anglicised in appearance. I wonder if an Anglicised 4-4-0 might not stretch credibility too far? Rivarossi did them in American 0 gauge, which is smaller than 7mm and they are fairly common in HO too, so could be adapted to suit British loading gauge in 7mm or 4mm. Re-boilered, a new cab, splashers and buffers? I think it was Dubs or Sharp Stewart built some typical American 4-4-0's for export and in an alternative world maybe the orders were cancelled and they found buyers in the UK? I wonder...

[Johnson044]

On 25/01/2021 at 09:02, CKPR said:

Funnily enough, when I was working on my 4mm M&CR tenders a couple of weeks ago, I actually got out one of my HO engines, a NWSL Baldwin 2-6-2, and noted that the tender body off this engine would have been a pretty good match for the 6 wheeled M&CR tender in 4mm. It was a similar Webb / Ramsbottom design and the difference in scale 'corrected' the difference in the sizes of the prototypes. 

...and the Maryport and Carlisle is a perfect precedent for a freelance company- big enough to fall into the secondary main line category, rather than that of light railway, with an idiosyncratic loco stud, some bought in from manufacturers and some built in the M&C workshops- all more or less unique.

 

[Johnson044]

A little progress on the 0-6-0. The tender tank now cleaned up and repaired and I've started on the loco's inner frames, which were etched a while back. Some parts have arrived, too. Model Engineers Laser are really good- if you have access to Cad of some kind they will cut out odd parts as one-off's very reasonably. The keeper plate sides are 1mm half hard brass and I really didn't think I'd be able to cut them out by hand with any degree of accuracy- MEL cut them out for about a fiver the pair- likewise the inner tender frames, which are a bit thicker and are a bit of an experiment. The Slater's axle ends will run in these and the outer frames and whitemetal axleboxes will be purely cosmetic. I want to try to avoid having a set of inside frames for the tender if I can but still be able to take the wheels and axles out easily. 

[Jol Wilkinson]

The model above has a Webb 1800g tank. An earlier LNWR tender is the Ramsbottom outside frame type which was built in two length/capacities. This is the longer wheelbase version, which were built in the third quarter of the 19th century.

 

 

 

[Johnson044]

On 25/01/2021 at 00:01, ianathompson said:

 

Having only recently clicked onto this thread I have probably missed the boat, as usual.

I certainly could give some interesting replies to the comments about the Great North of Scotland Railway, but as they were made two years ago it seems a little bit pointless.

 

Turning to  the quote, and the examining the perceived inhibitions in standard gauge locomotive modelling:

 

The variety in designs of standard gauge locomotives is restricted by the loading gauge , as opposed to the track gauge.

The relatively small gauge adopted by British railways meant that there literally was not much room for development.

In any case too much deviation from a period's design norms would mark a SG railway as an outlier and probably destroy any attempts at credibility.

As a crude example Edwardian railways used 0-6-0s as their standard freight locos pulling relatively short trains of loose coupled goods wagons at low speeds.

These obviously sufficed because they were a common choice.

Any-one trying to palm off a 2-10-2 tank locomotive pulling a long train of air braked wagons at high speed as their Edwardian independent railway's typical freight train 

would defy credulity, because they would be deviating too far from expectations.

 

Turn to the narrow gauge and there are fewer restrictions to inhibit development.

There were many different track gauges and loading gauges preventing the development of a standard design, on common carrier railways at any rate.

One only needs to llok at the variety of wheel arrangements used on the Irish NG to see this.

The general rule of thumb was that NG stock could be 2.5 to 3 times the width of the track gauge, something obviously unattainable on the SG.

Occasionally traffic demands might require a "big" loco to pull what could easily be hauled by the SG 0-6-0.

The Londonderry & Lough Swilly 4-8-0s and 4-8-4Ts come to mind, as well as the County Donegal.s 2-6-4Ts.

It is easier to put more driving wheels under the NG loco and provide it with a relatively massive boiler within the loading gauge.

This gives more scope for diversity, and that is before articulation is considered!

 

From personal experience, having modelled in NG for over forty years now, you might as well go the whole hog if you want an independent railway and go narrow gauge.

 

Ian T

 

 

 

 

This is a really healthy debate and a very welcome distraction from all the s**t that's happening in daily life. Some good points Ian but not the whole story, I think. It's all down in the end to what we like and dislike. A couple of quick thoughts- Yes- loading gauge a big factor but it doesn't necessarily mean that some more variety in wheel arrangements in, for example, the Edwardian era, will stretch credibility. Just look at the "Prototype for everything" dept and it's quickly clear that reality is sometimes stranger than fiction. 

 

Some examples, just to kick the ball a bit- some cancelled exports:

MSWJR- a couple of moguls and a single Fairlie built for overseas

Barry Railway- some superb 0-8-0 tender locos intended for Norway

Highland Railway- some 4-4-0 tank locos intended for overseas- I'm sure there are more.

 

...and from the 1890's, when there was a loco shortage:

 

Port Talbot Railway- some bar framed American 0-8-2T and 0-6-2T

Midland, GNR and GCR all had some moguls

 

Generally the imported locos and cancelled exports were from or for lands where undulating track and light axle loading were likely, hence the wheel arrangements.

 

So- maybe a few more cancelled orders or some more imports into our freelance world?

 

As for the air-braked 2-10-2T- you're spot on- years ago I saw a brass one in American 0 gauge in a model shop in a Leeds arcade and I was very tempted- but about £300 at the time, which was way, way out of my reach. I wanted to Anglicise it and run it on the reservoir builders' railway I was constructing, loosely based on the Nidd Valley.... would have looked rather fine in lined Metropolitan red with "Bradfield Corporation" on the tank - credibility stretched pretty thin, I think. It's all good fun.

[burgundy]

3 hours ago, Johnson044 said:

. I wonder if an Anglicised 4-4-0 might not stretch credibility too far? Rivarossi did them in American 0 gauge, which is smaller than 7mm and they are fairly common in HO too, so could be adapted to suit British loading gauge in 7mm or 4mm. Re-boilered, a new cab, splashers and buffers? I think it was Dubs or Sharp Stewart built some typical American 4-4-0's for export and in an alternative world maybe the orders were cancelled and they found buyers in the UK? I wonder...

For comparison, a Mantua General and a contemporary British 2-2-2. American locos at that time were really not very large - even before you shrink them to HO scale!

Best wishes 

Eric 

PS Before you start bashing a Mantua General, you should know that it is cast out of Mazak, which is horrible stuff to work.    

Edited January 29, 2021 by burgundy

[CKPR]

3 hours ago, Johnson044 said:

This really set the cogwheels turning. There's definitely further potential here. Just at the close of the Nineteenth Century there was something of a locomotive famine and a number of American Moguls and some other types were imported into the UK- rather Anglicised in appearance. I wonder if an Anglicised 4-4-0 might not stretch credibility too far? Rivarossi did them in American 0 gauge, which is smaller than 7mm and they are fairly common in HO too, so could be adapted to suit British loading gauge in 7mm or 4mm. Re-boilered, a new cab, splashers and buffers? I think it was Dubs or Sharp Stewart built some typical American 4-4-0's for export and in an alternative world maybe the orders were cancelled and they found buyers in the UK? I wonder...

 

In 7mm and  4-6-0, but there was an article in MRN 50 yrs ago (!) entitled "Casey Johnson - an Anglo-American in O gauge'' that described converting an North American 4-6-0 into a representation of a MR Baldwin - I'll post some photographs of the article after tea. 

[CKPR]

Some quick photographs of the 'Casey Johnson' article (MRN October 1970 522-523, 535) - I doubt the technical details will be very relevant today (Woolworth's curtain rail anyone ?) , but might be useful for ideas and general inspiration.

 

For anyone interested, there's a 'buy it now' Rivarossi 4-4-0 body and tender for sale on Ebay at the moment  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rivorossi-Old-Timer-4-4-0-Steam-Loco-Body-And-Tender/133632763583?hash=item1f1d2226bf:g:DWwAAOSwWGdf-fBW.

Edited January 29, 2021 by CKPR