Creating a believable freelance pre-Group company

[1165Valour]

2 hours ago, whart57 said:

To come back to my Surrey Railway idea, what do people think of trimming off the Berkshire bit and letting the GWR have Reading to Aldershot?

 

It would be fun to see Green and Indian Red that far south, though I wonder what goal they would have in mind in acquiring a line to Aldershot. Of course, railways have built to all manner of odd destinations - see the SER at Reading, or the Metropolitan at Verney Junction.

-----------------------

I've considered several proposed lines over the years, most related to the MS&LR/GCR:

- Edward Watkin's proposed Blackpool Railway;

- the Didcot, Newbury & Southampton Railway, assuming it had made it to Southampton and started operating its own trains;

- the Lancashire, Derbyshire & East Coast Railway west of Chesterfield, because of course;

- the Macclesfield, Knutsford & Warrington Railway, with the CLC and NSR jointly operating the line. Here in the US we call these "paper railroads" - loads of potential for real companies running over fictitious lines;

- Watkin's proposed working union between the LSWR, the LB&SCR, the LCDR, and the SER;

- Watkin's Welsh Railways Union (the Manchester & Milford may actually connect to the former city here)

Edited June 15, 2021 by GWRSwindon

[Regularity]

13 hours ago, GWRSwindon said:

- Watkin's proposed working union between the LSWR, the LB&SCR, the LCDR, and the SER;

Which did, of course, happen a generation later!

[1165Valour]

On 15/06/2021 at 16:11, GWRSwindon said:

It would be fun to see Green and Indian Red that far south, though I wonder what goal they would have in mind in acquiring a line to Aldershot. Of course, railways have built to all manner of odd destinations - see the SER at Reading, or the Metropolitan at Verney Junction.

-----------------------

I've considered several proposed lines over the years, most related to the MS&LR/GCR:

- Edward Watkin's proposed Blackpool Railway;

- the Didcot, Newbury & Southampton Railway, assuming it had made it to Southampton and started operating its own trains;

- the Lancashire, Derbyshire & East Coast Railway west of Chesterfield, because of course;

- the Macclesfield, Knutsford & Warrington Railway, with the CLC and NSR jointly operating the line. Here in the US we call these "paper railroads" - loads of potential for real companies running over fictitious lines;

- Watkin's proposed working union between the LSWR, the LB&SCR, the LCDR, and the SER;

- Watkin's Welsh Railways Union (the Manchester & Milford may actually connect to the former city here)

Oh crumbs - I didn't see the OP wanted completely freelance companies, not real ones operating over fictitious lines. Do we have a thread for those?

[Edwardian]

2 hours ago, GWRSwindon said:

 real ones operating over fictitious lines. Do we have a thread for those?

 

Yes, I'd say so, give that's what the majority of model railways represent.

[whart57]

On 15/06/2021 at 21:11, GWRSwindon said:

Of course, railways have built to all manner of odd destinations - see the SER at Reading, or the Metropolitan at Verney Junction.

 

 The fact the SER line to Reading was such an outlier is what made it the candidate for my alternative history Surrey Railway. That alternative history, discussed earlier in this thread in some detail, starts with the Redhill and Reading line not being leased, operated and eventually absorbed into the SER but having an independent existence and then later adding a couple of lines out of Dorking - to Epsom and Horsham - which were also originally independent promotions taken over, in reality, by the LBSCR. Another part of the alternative history is that from Epsom a patchwork of joint ventures, minority shareholdings and running powers gave the Surrey Railway access to London Victoria. In real history that is not much different to how the LCDR turned itself from a branch line in Kent into a mainline with capital and cross-Channel interests.

[Johnson044]

Have finally made some progress with Cambrian / Furness Sharp Stewart 4-4-0 for the Ledsham & Hereford Railway. More or less complete and painted above the footplate. Much now done below. I've finally understood how the link motion works - it's very like that on the small Sharpie 2-4-0's for the Great Eastern. Cross about messing up one of the holes but it's non-working and I can't face re-making the part in question - it won't be seen anyway! Brake gear starting to take shape (Slater's plastic shoes). Just sandboxes, brake cylinder, current pick-ups and motor now- oh yes- and the painting bit!

[Corbs]

I am in love

[Johnson044]

If only one had been preserved!

[Regularity]

Could say that about an awful lot of machines, but these are particularly iconic.

[Edwardian]

This model, absolutely beautiful by the way, looks to me like a Sharp Stewart 4-4-0 of the 'Small Bogie' (Cambrian), and 'Small Seagull'/K1 of the Furness ilk.

 

It is lovely to see it elaborately lined out in green, as it gives me a taste of how the West Norfolk ones may one day look. Knuckles of this parish makes 3D prints of the 2-4-0 version ('Small Passenger Class'/E1) and the contemporary 0-6-0 design ('Small Goods Class'/D1).  He has kindly offered to draw up the 4-4-0 (he already does the larger K2), thus allowing all three to the WN's standard classes to be represented.

 

I cannot think of better prototypes for a freelance railway of small mainline stature and they are such handsome locomotives, with their slim, low pitched boilers, raised fireboxes and elegantly drawn Victorian lines. I think they beat the contemporary Beyer 4-4-0s for looks, much as I like the Beyers, with their early Adams looks. 

 

The freelance livery seems entirely credible and appropriate. I like the nameplate and the use of brass numerals, with the repeat on the chimney.  All a very believable house style.

 

For all these reasons, for me this is the epitome of a believable pre-Grouping company's locomotive.   

 

A real pleasure to behold.

[Johnson044]

Thank you Edwardian- I'm very flattered! Yes- it's intended to be a Furness "Small Seagull" - the theory being that the L & H R snapped up the ones that the Cambrian rejected (I think it was because of late delivery?) instead of the Furness. I've tried to keep it as close as I could to the Furness version, the main difference being the omission of the bogie splashers, which gave me so much gyp on my GNSR Class K 4-4-0. I may yet pluck up the courage to fit them (but both the Cambrian and Furness ones seem to have lost them in later years so no big deal, I think). Also the backhead is a Slater's Midland one, so not quite right around the firebox door.

 

Lining was carried out during the first lockdown and was painted on either decal paper or painted / drawn on ordinary photocopier paper in the flat where possible and drawn on using 0.5mm black or white gel pen where in-situ. Gel pens worked tolerably well but they are temperamental and very picky about the paint and seem to prefer a matt finish. The wheels were painted before lockdown by Bob Fridd of Canterbury but because of the circumstances I had to man up and try to paint the upper works myself. Professional it ain't but I'm reasonably pleased. The nameplates are "Fairlie" style ones, custom etched very reasonably by Narrow Planet, who also did the works plates. Lettering is cut about S E & C R from Fox Transfers.

 

I'm quite torn over the Beyers - the M&GN 4-4-0's I do really like - especially after they gained Johnson boilers, when they became really beautiful things. I particularly like the rectangular spectacle windows. 

 

I find this book plus the companion volume on UK specimens hugely inspiring when considering freelance Victorian steam- lots of really clear side elevations of eclectic and sometimes bizarre beasts.

 

 

 

 

 

[Johnson044]

On 12/07/2021 at 18:13, Regularity said:

Could say that about an awful lot of machines, but these are particularly iconic.

I think the thing is that there is a real paucity of surviving small 4-4-0's. These were in many ways the epitome of mid-to-late Victorian steam, along with the double-framed goods (virtually extinct, apart from part of one at Armley Mills museum in Leeds and a solitary specimen in Cairo). There are a few 2-4-0's (a really lovely one at the railway museum in Utrecht). The surviving 4-4-0's tend to be later, larger machines with very few exceptions and none of them as pretty as the smaller specimens- the loveliest possibly the small S & D J R ones?- in fact I'm struggling to think of a single small 4-4-0 in the UK, the closest being Gordon Highlander. It's a significant gap, I think, in the national collection.

[Edwardian]

One of my Sharp 0-6-0s sports a wrap over cab as a nod to the fact that this particular loco was bought as a cancelled Furness (D1) order.  You might spot it 4th down from the top in this picture.

 

 

For some reasons the Furness D1s seemed to have had this style of cab.  Well, it adds a touch of variety to the WNR fleet.

 

The rest of the Sharps, 0-6-0s, 2-4-0s and 4-4-0s, were all ordered new by the WNR, the logic being that the WNR was as likely to be a customer for such types as the Furness or the Cambrian.

 

The older 2-4-0s and 0-6-0s would have been supplied with spectacle plates and retro-fitted with cabs.  Later batches and the 4-4-0s would have had cabs from the start.  I have chosen the Furness cabs, as the scoop and depth of the cutaway I find more balanced and elegant than the Cambrian version.

 

If it were not for these Sharps, supplied to UK railways, I'd be looking to the various Beyers and Sharps supplied to the Netherlands as inspirations. There is a splendid preserved doubled-framed Beyer 2-4-0 with a belpaire and something that looks awfully like a Sharp 'Seagull'.

 

Australia's Victorian Railways I have found to be particularly worth exploring, but, as you've mentioned, overseas railways are a rich resource for British locomotives. Why, we've recently visited Japan on CA.

 

The double-framed Beyers, in 2-4-0 and 4-4-0 configurations:

 

 

 

I am planning on one Beyer 4-4-0. My thought is that the directors of the WNR turned to Beyer for equivalent locomotives when Sharp's order book was full.  It will have that classic early Adams appearance, a smaller-wheel version of the MGN A Class. 

 

 

Tell me this is not essentially a Sharp's 'Large Seagull':

 

 

When one considers the house designs of private builders supplied to UK, European, Irish and Empire railways, one realises that there are locomotives aplenty for any pre-Grouping freelance company not substantial enough or inclined to design its own locomotives. I am so glad to see the imaginative fruits of an increasing number of modellers creating railway companies hitherto neglected by history!

 

The book you mention was new to me, however, so thanks for the reference. I have now ordered a copy.  The Manchester Museum of Science & Industry used to have all the Beyer works photographs online.  Then some 12-year old at the Science Museum Group decided that this website did not fit with the Group's new corporate style (all the Group's museum's websites are asinine in the extreme nowadays) and a useful and much cherished online resource was needlessly lost.  Honestly, the museum industry, with its destructive urge for the latest fashions and the elusive 'relevance' is the last sector you'd actually want looking after our museum heritage. If you don't believe me, try charting the history of the British Army's campaigns at the revamped National Army Museum; it's been 'themed' to an extent that totally precludes any coherent historical narrative.  

 

EDIT: Pictures!

 

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Edwardian

[Curlew]

Don't forget South America

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Curlew
more piccies

[Hando]

11 hours ago, Curlew said:

Don't forget South America

 

 

 

 

 

The second, without its enormous headlamp looks like it could have made for quite a fetching English P-G loco had it not been exported!

Edited July 14, 2021 by Hando

[whart57]

This book is quite good for drawings of the various Beyer Peacocks, Sharp Stewarts, Neilsons and others sold to Dutch railways in the latter half of the nineteenth century:

 

 

The drawings are all 1:100 scale, and there is a side plan for every class ever supplied. At least there is in that edition, the book has been re-worked and re-issued by dHr Waldorp at least seven times. This is the seventh edition published in 1986

Edited July 15, 2021 by whart57

[Caley Jim]

1 hour ago, whart57 said:

This book is quite good for drawings of the various Beyer Peacocks, Sharp Stewarts, Hurst Neilsons and others sold to Dutch railways in the latter half of the nineteenth century:

Point of correction.  The Loco builders, in Springburn, Glasgow, were Neilson & Co, who merged with Sharp Stewart and Dubs to become  The North British Locomotive Company.  Hurst Nelson were Motherwell based carriage and wagon builders.

 

Jim

[whart57]

I gave a presentation on my Surrey Railway over Zoom to members of the 3mm Society. People here might be interested too so I'll attach a pdf of the slides

 

19th C railways.pdf

 

 

[Hando]

8 minutes ago, whart57 said:

I gave a presentation on my Surrey Railway over Zoom to members of the 3mm Society. People here might be interested too so I'll attach a pdf of the slides

 

19th C railways.pdf 5.14 MB · 0 downloads

 

 

This is great!

[Johnson044]

On 14/07/2021 at 10:09, Edwardian said:

One of my Sharp 0-6-0s sports a wrap over cab as a nod to the fact that this particular loco was bought as a cancelled Furness (D1) order.  You might spot it 4th down from the top in this picture.

 

 

For some reasons the Furness D1s seemed to have had this style of cab.  Well, it adds a touch of variety to the WNR fleet.

 

The rest of the Sharps, 0-6-0s, 2-4-0s and 4-4-0s, were all ordered new by the WNR, the logic being that the WNR was as likely to be a customer for such types as the Furness or the Cambrian.

 

The older 2-4-0s and 0-6-0s would have been supplied with spectacle plates and retro-fitted with cabs.  Later batches and the 4-4-0s would have had cabs from the start.  I have chosen the Furness cabs, as the scoop and depth of the cutaway I find more balanced and elegant than the Cambrian version.

 

If it were not for these Sharps, supplied to UK railways, I'd be looking to the various Beyers and Sharps supplied to the Netherlands as inspirations. There is a splendid preserved doubled-framed Beyer 2-4-0 with a belpaire and something that looks awfully like a Sharp 'Seagull'.

 

Australia's Victorian Railways I have found to be particularly worth exploring, but, as you've mentioned, overseas railways are a rich resource for British locomotives. Why, we've recently visited Japan on CA.

 

The double-framed Beyers, in 2-4-0 and 4-4-0 configurations:

 

 

 

I am planning on one Beyer 4-4-0. My thought is that the directors of the WNR turned to Beyer for equivalent locomotives when Sharp's order book was full.  It will have that classic early Adams appearance, a smaller-wheel version of the MGN A Class. 

 

 

Tell me this is not essentially a Sharp's 'Large Seagull':

 

 

When one considers the house designs of private builders supplied to UK, European, Irish and Empire railways, one realises that there are locomotives aplenty for any pre-Grouping freelance company not substantial enough or inclined to design its own locomotives. I am so glad to see the imaginative fruits of an increasing number of modellers creating railway companies hitherto neglected by history!

 

The book you mention was new to me, however, so thanks for the reference. I have now ordered a copy.  The Manchester Museum of Science & Industry used to have all the Beyer works photographs online.  Then some 12-year old at the Science Museum Group decided that this website did not fit with the Group's new corporate style (all the Group's museum's websites are asinine in the extreme nowadays) and a useful and much cherished online resource was needlessly lost.  Honestly, the museum industry, with its destructive urge for the latest fashions and the elusive 'relevance' is the last sector you'd actually want looking after our museum heritage. If you don't believe me, try charting the history of the British Army's campaigns at the revamped National Army Museum; it's been 'themed' to an extent that totally precludes any coherent historical narrative.  

 

EDIT: Pictures!

 

 

This is hugely inspiring. The Sharps 4-4-0 is so very Cambrian / Furness - in fact quite generic in terms of a believable freelance loco. At the same museum there's an 1860's Beyer inside framed 2-4-0 with just a weatherboard - I think the Oxford Worcester & Wolverhampton had something pretty similar. The similarity with that one and a Sharp Stewart product is far more pronounced, and not surprising given that Beyer's previous links with Sharp Roberts. There are some fine examples in the Swedish national museum in Gavle - a very fine and very similar 2-2-2 - sadly I've not been able to visit but it's on the bucket list.

 

A very sad loss was the array of Beyer Peacock 0-4-2's plus a single 0-6-0 double framed loco which lingered in Barry condition into the early 1970's in Lempuyangan, Java - as a child I was transfixed by the illustrations of some of these in Colin Garratt's "iron Dinosaurs". If only! But again, a fantastic Freelance inspiration.

 

Don't start me on the dumbing down of museums!!! i did wonder why the Beyer-Peacock archive photo link suddenly stopped working. Pet subject for a good rant. Clearance of the nautical gallery at the Science Museum, the scrapping of the paddle tug Reliant at the Maritime Museum and the demolition of the Birmingham Museum of Science and industry and it's replacement with (coughs up phlegm) Think Tank. All very sad.

[Johnson044]

1 hour ago, whart57 said:

I gave a presentation on my Surrey Railway over Zoom to members of the 3mm Society. People here might be interested too so I'll attach a pdf of the slides

 

19th C railways.pdf 5.14 MB · 5 downloads

 

 

This is absolutely brilliant!

[Regularity]

2 hours ago, Johnson044 said:

Don't start me on the dumbing down of museums!!! i did wonder why the Beyer-Peacock archive photo link suddenly stopped working.

It’s not dumbing down: it’s cost-cutting, and “marketing” in it’s worst form. 
 

Prime examples of both can be found in anything by Boris Johnson.

[Johnson044]

If it is assumed by the museum's marketing department that the average visitor has the attention span of a gnat then that is the standard of information which will be provided for an exhibit. The whole thing becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Instead of a detailed information panel that stretches the intellect you get four buttons to press with key facts. An intelligent child - nay an intelligent hamster is just insulted. Birmingham Museum of Science and Industry inspired me as a child and I have really vivid and fond memories. Has Think Tank actually given anyone anything other than a vague sense of disappointment?

[Edwardian]

4 hours ago, Johnson044 said:

This is hugely inspiring. The Sharps 4-4-0 is so very Cambrian / Furness - in fact quite generic in terms of a believable freelance loco. At the same museum there's an 1860's Beyer inside framed 2-4-0 with just a weatherboard - I think the Oxford Worcester & Wolverhampton had something pretty similar. The similarity with that one and a Sharp Stewart product is far more pronounced, and not surprising given that Beyer's previous links with Sharp Roberts.

 

 

This one?

 

 

No.16 is works no. 856 of 1865.

 

 

4 hours ago, Johnson044 said:

 

There are some fine examples in the Swedish national museum in Gavle - a very fine and very similar 2-2-2 - sadly I've not been able to visit but it's on the bucket list.

 

Annie has adopted the Beyer Peacock 2-2-2 on her freelance line, also supplied to the Edinburgh & Glasgow (1856) and Portugal (1862): 

 

 

And, I believe, the Netherlands.

 

Some Swedish Beyers: 

 

370 of 1859

679 of 1863

 

 

2071 of 1866

2975 of 1874

 

679 of 1863

NB thus is the same works number as the 2-4-0 listed above, so either I or the archive noted one wrongly. Can't check. of course, because the 12-year olds took the website down! 

 

2032 of 1866

2730 of 1872

 

 

3255 of 1875-6

 

 

3253 of 1875

 

 

4 hours ago, Johnson044 said:

A very sad loss was the array of Beyer Peacock 0-4-2's plus a single 0-6-0 double framed loco which lingered in Barry condition into the early 1970's in Lempuyangan, Java - as a child I was transfixed by the illustrations of some of these in Colin Garratt's "iron Dinosaurs". If only! But again, a fantastic Freelance inspiration.

 

Tragic indeed.

 

4 hours ago, Johnson044 said:

Don't start me on the dumbing down of museums!!! i did wonder why the Beyer-Peacock archive photo link suddenly stopped working. Pet subject for a good rant. Clearance of the nautical gallery at the Science Museum, the scrapping of the paddle tug Reliant at the Maritime Museum and the demolition of the Birmingham Museum of Science and industry and it's replacement with (coughs up phlegm) Think Tank. All very sad.

 

Traditional museums need to be preserved in a museum of traditional museum before all is lost! 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Johnson044 said:

 

[Johnson044]

Oh Mama!!!!! What a parade of lovelies!

 

Nr 13 is just so beautiful.