RMweb Gold Argos Posted February 21, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 21, 2018 The LNWR did actually succeed in selling engines prior to the embargo with a significant number of DXs, Newtons and 0-4-0 shunting tanks being sold to the L&Y. They also appear to have got around the rules by selling "2nd hand" engines to likes of the North Staffordshire when, I believe, the 2no SDXs sold appear to have been fresh rebuilds. Of course the regulation prevented them selling more and we should probably be grateful as this gives us the large variety of pre-grouping designs we so admire today. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
whart57 Posted February 22, 2018 Author Share Posted February 22, 2018 The other place on the fictitious Surrey Junction Railway which would have a significantly different history would be Horsham. Here I imagine the SJR station would have been on the site that today is used by Network Rail engineering to store their track maintenance stuff. Again a sketch I personally would model the line to Boxhill as double track but whether Horsham SJR needed two platforms is questionable. There are numerous examples of double track termini in the South East where a second platform was rarely used, or used mainly for parcels traffic There would need to be carriage sidings and at least some goods facilities. The neighbouring LBSCR station would probably dominate that traffic though. By 1891, my chosen date, the LBSCR would have lines going south and west to Shoreham, Bognor and Guildford as well as the line to link up with the Brighton main line at Three Bridges. Crawley New Town and Gatwick Airport were of course way into the future. I've suggested a site for a loco shed. Horsham SJR would need an allocation of at least half a dozen to handle the services as well as have spares and allow days off for things like boiler washouts Horsham's actual station was rebuilt and re-modelled by the Southern Railway in the 1930s so I reckon that anyone building a model of Horsham's Surrey Junction Railway station would fool quite a number of locals into thinking there was once another station on the opposite side of North Street 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sem34090 Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 I now want to model that! I have some spare boards, the shed could hide the fiddle yard. It would allow some opportunity to run LBSCR, LSWR and SECR stock, and possibly some from my fictional LWSR too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HonestTom Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 I briefly considered the concept of an imaginary Oxford and Aylesbury Railway, inspired by the original plans for the Oxford and Aylesbury Railway. I was planning to cheat on the rolling stock, though, using mostly semi-plausible cast-offs from other companies and older rolling stock from the days when model manufacturers preferred to make something that looked "about right." For locomotives, the OAR's own workshops would have a couple of representatives, made from a chopped-about Great British Locomotives C class (an idea I'm afraid I have shamelessly stolen from Nile of this parish) and a Triang 'Nellie' on a Bachmann Junior chassis (a project I've had in the works for a while). Like the LSWR and SECR, the OAR acquired a couple of second-hand Terriers. Possibly they also experimented with a second-hand Adams Radial. After the First World War they picked up a few ROD 2-8-0s, a concept made much easier by Bachmann's announcement of the ROD version of their O4. I don't think it quite lines up in terms of the timeline, but I had the idea of chopping up a Great British Locomotives N class and imagining that, like the Metropolitan, the OAR bought some of the Woolwich batch and assembled them as their own locomotive. For coaching stock, I'd use modified Triang shorty clerestories to represent local stock and those Graham Farish coaches they produced in every livery for the more prestigious through service to Baker Street. However, this idea has been shelved for the time being, as I'm currently playing with the idea of going back in time even further, and modelling a freelance line in a fictional part of Shropshire circa 1840... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
whart57 Posted February 22, 2018 Author Share Posted February 22, 2018 I don't know if you know the area but if you don't can I just point out that there is a nice convenient overbridge that would make a break between the SJR and LBSCR stations. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 I briefly considered the concept of an imaginary Oxford and Aylesbury Railway, inspired by the original plans for the Oxford and Aylesbury Railway. I was planning to cheat on the rolling stock, though, using mostly semi-plausible cast-offs from other companies and older rolling stock from the days when model manufacturers preferred to make something that looked "about right." For locomotives, the OAR's own workshops would have a couple of representatives, made from a chopped-about Great British Locomotives C class (an idea I'm afraid I have shamelessly stolen from Nile of this parish) and a Triang 'Nellie' on a Bachmann Junior chassis (a project I've had in the works for a while). Like the LSWR and SECR, the OAR acquired a couple of second-hand Terriers. Possibly they also experimented with a second-hand Adams Radial. After the First World War they picked up a few ROD 2-8-0s, a concept made much easier by Bachmann's announcement of the ROD version of their O4. I don't think it quite lines up in terms of the timeline, but I had the idea of chopping up a Great British Locomotives N class and imagining that, like the Metropolitan, the OAR bought some of the Woolwich batch and assembled them as their own locomotive. For coaching stock, I'd use modified Triang shorty clerestories to represent local stock and those Graham Farish coaches they produced in every livery for the more prestigious through service to Baker Street. However, this idea has been shelved for the time being, as I'm currently playing with the idea of going back in time even further, and modelling a freelance line in a fictional part of Shropshire circa 1840... Brilliant. Then build the southward "Pangbourne Extension" to make it the "OAP"! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HonestTom Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 Brilliant. Then build the southward "Pangbourne Extension" to make it the "OAP"! I'm imagining a magazine article from within this parallel universe about how this railway stymied the proposed Great Central Railway, titled "Sticking Their OAR In." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sem34090 Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 Like all of the above. I have a spare ROD! And a Fowler 2-6-4T, though that's a bit modern. I know Horsham well, hence why I like the idea so much! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sem34090 Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 My interpretation of the L&HCJR (London & Home Counties Junction Railway - I prefer that to the SJR!): 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sem34090 Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 I added in the Guildford & Horsham direct railway: in reality LBSCR, but was built by an independent company, so I felt it was justifiable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
whart57 Posted February 23, 2018 Author Share Posted February 23, 2018 Possible, but I would make a couple of suggestions. The first is that I think the term "Home Counties" is a bit 1930-ish so late for the pre-Grouping period so I might suggest London and Surrey Railway or even Surrey Railway (SR!) since 90% of it lies within the county. If you add the Horsham Guildford line though I would be inclined to move the junction from Christ's Hospital (which didn't exist in the 19th century - well not in Sussex) to a point between the Wimblehurst Rd and Pondtail Road bridges and then follow the contours of Red River to the Arun and onto to Slinfold and pick up the real line from there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
whart57 Posted February 23, 2018 Author Share Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) One point made about creating a believable fictional company is that you need to be disciplined in your stock acquisition. Not so much goods stock, well no more than making sure the wagons are suitable for time and place - not much demand for slate wagons or iron ore carriers in Surrey! - but carriage stock and especially locomotives. To work out the Surrey Railway's loco roster in 1891 requires some work on estimating how many they would need on a daily basis to run a typical late 19th century service. And then doubling it given that steam locos were heavy on maintenance and a 50% availability figure might even be high. As the lines of the Surrey Railway were real, albeit built and operated by someone else, I can get timings for passenger trains from my reprint of a 1910 Bradshaw. The difference between 1891 and 1910 is unlikely to be much since I won't have any long distance expresses. There will be a difference in the number of trains per day though, There were a lot fewer in 1891. D.L. Bradleys Locomotive History of the SER also gives me some useful timings for goods trains from Redhill to Reading in the 1870s. These were unlikely to be significantly faster in 1891, or even 1931 come to that given that the biggest time sink in a pick up goods schedule is shunting and waiting for a path in among the passenger trains Doing all that let's me create a table of services: Express London – Horsham 1 hr 17 min One each way London – Reading 2 hr 10 min One each way Semi fast London – Horsham 1 hr 40 min Two each way London – Reading 2 hr 32 min Two each way Stopping London – Horsham 1 hr 48 min One each way London – Reading 3 hr 2 min One each way Mitcham Jct – Horsham 1 hr 20 min Four each way Mitcham Jct – Ash 2 hr 1 min Two each way Ash – Reading 33 minutes Four each way Redhill – Reading 2 hour 15 minutes Two each way Redhill – Ash 1 hour 35 minutes Two each way Boxhill – Redhill 18 minutes Four each way Boxhill – Horsham 31 minutes Two each way Goods train paths (estimated timings allowing shunting) Redhill – Reading (pick up all stations) approx 6 hours One each way Redhill – Reading (only major stations) approx 3 hours 3 each way (2 through) Leatherhead – Horsham (pick up) approx 3 hours Two each way) I've considered the possibility that the LSWR and LBSCR have limits set on the number of Surrey Railway trains using running powers into London, hence the turns to/from Mitcham Junction and the fact that SR goods trains don't go further north than Leatherhead. Then after giving a generous allowance for turning round at end of journeys I estimate the loco requirements are: Engine requirements Daily Total Fast passenger 5 8 Stopping passenger 8 20 Local passenger (trip under 1 hour) 2 4 Goods 6 12 (Station piloting done by engines between turns) Total 21 44 Now comes the interesting part, how are those requirements turned into loco classes? My assumption is that the Surrey Railway is a loco acquirer rather than a loco designer, thus it's unlikely they had lots of locos to the same design. The account by which the LCDR acquired Huz and Buz is relevant here. In the 19th century the big locomotive builders suffered from fluctuating demand but rather than break up skilled workforces which would then be difficult to recruit and build up when demand returned, when they had no orders on the books they would build some locos on spec, much as the likes of Airbus today build "white fin" planes - planes with no buyer - in the expectation that their sales force will have closed an order for it by the time it's complete. So around 1870 Sharp Stewart had a slump in orders and built six standard goods locos which were then sold to the LCDR, Taff Vale and Furness railways who each took two. The price was about £500 less an engine, something like a 20% discount. So I reckon the Surrey Railway's loco roster in 1891 would be something like this: Possible Engine classes Latest 4-4-0 4 Largest 2-4-0 type 6 Other post 1860 2-4-0 (2-3 classes) 20 Pre 1860 2-4-0 6 Goods 0-6-0 (3-4 classes) 16 Total 52 No tank engines because in 1891 they were very much for inner London work, unless you were a tank engine lover like the Brighton. A 1911 roster would look quite different though. Edited February 23, 2018 by whart57 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Corbs Posted February 23, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 23, 2018 I like it! That's what I've been trying to do for 'my' NWR - work out the timetable, to steer how many locos I need in my allocations, plus spares, bankers, shunters etc. Here's a post I wrote on the timetables steering the loco dept. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/1365/entry-20165-timetables-and-traffic-requirements/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sem34090 Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 I think this will form my next layout plan: Horsham North Street! Plenty of opportunities for LBSCR stock then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Argos Posted February 23, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 23, 2018 One point made about creating a believable fictional company is that you need to be disciplined in your stock acquisition. Not so much goods stock, well no more than making sure the wagons are suitable for time and place - not much demand for slate wagons or iron ore carriers in Surrey! - but carriage stock and especially locomotives. To work out the Surrey Railway's loco roster in 1891 requires some work on estimating how many they would need on a daily basis to run a typical late 19th century service. And then doubling it given that steam locos were heavy on maintenance and a 50% availability figure might even be high. As the lines of the Surrey Railway were real, albeit built and operated by someone else, I can get timings for passenger trains from my reprint of a 1910 Bradshaw. The difference between 1891 and 1910 is unlikely to be much since I won't have any long distance expresses. There will be a difference in the number of trains per day though, There were a lot fewer in 1891. D.L. Bradleys Locomotive History of the SER also gives me some useful timings for goods trains from Redhill to Reading in the 1870s. These were unlikely to be significantly faster in 1891, or even 1931 come to that given that the biggest time sink in a pick up goods schedule is shunting and waiting for a path in among the passenger trains Doing all that let's me create a table of services: Express London – Horsham 1 hr 17 min One each way London – Reading 2 hr 10 min One each way Semi fast London – Horsham 1 hr 40 min Two each way London – Reading 2 hr 32 min Two each way Stopping London – Horsham 1 hr 48 min One each way London – Reading 3 hr 2 min One each way Mitcham Jct – Horsham 1 hr 20 min Four each way Mitcham Jct – Ash 2 hr 1 min Two each way Ash – Reading 33 minutes Four each way Redhill – Reading 2 hour 15 minutes Two each way Redhill – Ash 1 hour 35 minutes Two each way Boxhill – Redhill 18 minutes Four each way Boxhill – Horsham 31 minutes Two each way Goods train paths (estimated timings allowing shunting) Redhill – Reading (pick up all stations) approx 6 hours One each way Redhill – Reading (only major stations) approx 3 hours 3 each way (2 through) Leatherhead – Horsham (pick up) approx 3 hours Two each way) I've considered the possibility that the LSWR and LBSCR have limits set on the number of Surrey Railway trains using running powers into London, hence the turns to/from Mitcham Junction and the fact that SR goods trains don't go further north than Leatherhead. Then after giving a generous allowance for turning round at end of journeys I estimate the loco requirements are: Engine requirements Daily Total Fast passenger 5 8 Stopping passenger 8 20 Local passenger (trip under 1 hour) 2 4 Goods 6 12 (Station piloting done by engines between turns) Total 21 44 Now comes the interesting part, how are those requirements turned into loco classes? My assumption is that the Surrey Railway is a loco acquirer rather than a loco designer, thus it's unlikely they had lots of locos to the same design. The account by which the LCDR acquired Huz and Buz is relevant here. In the 19th century the big locomotive builders suffered from fluctuating demand but rather than break up skilled workforces which would then be difficult to recruit and build up when demand returned, when they had no orders on the books they would build some locos on spec, much as the likes of Airbus today build "white fin" planes - planes with no buyer - in the expectation that their sales force will have closed an order for it by the time it's complete. So around 1870 Sharp Stewart had a slump in orders and built six standard goods locos which were then sold to the LCDR, Taff Vale and Furness railways who each took two. The price was about £500 less an engine, something like a 20% discount. So I reckon the Surrey Railway's loco roster in 1891 would be something like this: Possible Engine classes Latest 4-4-0 4 Largest 2-4-0 type 6 Other post 1860 2-4-0 (2-3 classes) 20 Pre 1860 2-4-0 6 Goods 0-6-0 (3-4 classes) 16 Total 52 No tank engines because in 1891 they were very much for inner London work, unless you were a tank engine lover like the Brighton. A 1911 roster would look quite different though. Don't forget the old 0-4-2 several companies still had them running and 1891 and a single may still be in operation then as well. Both offer interesting variations on the norm. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Regularity Posted February 23, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 23, 2018 With locos and stock, you have four basic paths to choose from: 1) own company designs (and builds some of) its own. All you need to do here is change things slightly, for example maybe Fred Russell didn’t go on to become General Manager of the GER, but went to become CME of your chosen company; 2) buy off the shelf from outside contractors, most of whom had a range of Standard Designs, especially for engines. A great example is the range of 2-4-0s, 4-4-0s and 0-6-0s supplied to, amongst others, the Furness and Cambrian. You could add to these the standard wagons and coaches of, say, the BRCW; 3) buy second hand: the world’s your oyster; 4) a joint line, for example after a period of option (2), the SDJR had Derby engines and Nine Elms/Eastleigh coaches. Obviously things get mixed about, and a common path might be 3-2-1. The key to a fictional company, as with any good novel or play, is to create a convincing back story, which means reading up a bit on other lines of a similar size, and to progress on that basis. Obvious examples are the Furness and the Cambrian, but there are also other companies such as the North Staffs, the Maryport and Carlisle and the MSWJR. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sem34090 Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 If I do Horsham North Street, or another station on the L&SR (LSR would look better on a tender than SR, I think, and would avoid confusion!) I think the first few bits of stock would originate from here: https://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparkshotcustomcreationsscc?section=Furness+%26+Cambrian+Loco%27+Bodies&s=0 Mostly Sharp, Stewart stuff there, I think. Besides, they look pretty! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
whart57 Posted February 23, 2018 Author Share Posted February 23, 2018 Funnily enough it was after someone sent me a link to this guy on Shapeways that I started thinking about freelance pre-Group again. Unfortunately I do have this other layout to build ...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
whart57 Posted February 23, 2018 Author Share Posted February 23, 2018 The key to a fictional company, as with any good novel or play, is to create a convincing back story, which means reading up a bit on other lines of a similar size, and to progress on that basis. Obvious examples are the Furness and the Cambrian, but there are also other companies such as the North Staffs, the Maryport and Carlisle and the MSWJR. In your opinion is the Surrey Railway idea a sufficiently convincing backstory? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sem34090 Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 Funnily enough it was after someone sent me a link to this guy on Shapeways that I started thinking about freelance pre-Group again. Unfortunately I do have this other layout to build ...... He's on here too! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Regularity Posted February 23, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 23, 2018 In your opinion is the Surrey Railway idea a sufficiently convincing backstory?To be honest, I suspect it would have been jointly operated by the LSWR and the LBSCR, with the wheeler-dealer ousted by them. But that’s not the point, is it? You are assuming that the wheeler-dealer managed to successfully play one board off against the other, so it holds water on that basis.But what I think is irrelevant: do you find it substantial enough to support your ideas? The test is in how robust the main plot is: you could happily twiddle with the details till the cows come home, just so long as the big picture stays the same. Anyway, I thought you modelled diesels? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 To be honest, I suspect it would have been jointly operated by the LSWR and the LBSCR, with the wheeler-dealer ousted by them. But that’s not the point, is it? You are assuming that the wheeler-dealer managed to successfully play one board off against the other, so it holds water on that basis. But what I think is irrelevant: do you find it substantial enough to support your ideas? The test is in how robust the main plot is: you could happily twiddle with the details till the cows come home, just so long as the big picture stays the same. Much as the West Norfolk plays both ends against the middle and manages to avoid becoming either part of the GE or part of the M&GN. There must have been one or two real minor lines that managed that trick? Anyway, I thought you modelled diesels? Perhaps they've found a cure. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sem34090 Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 Perhaps they've found a cure. I took a blue liveried, 1970's era, Hunslet Austerity up the club once and placed it alongside someones Scottish Blue Diesesal. After shouting at me for doing this, he was promptly told how prototypical the scene looked! Then someone showed him a photo of one of the 1923 VOR tanks in blue... he didn't know what to say! Then he said "It goes chuff therefore it's boring" to which I commented that my Bulleid West Country was less of a box on wheels than his class 27... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold phil_sutters Posted February 23, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) You only have to look at the S&DJR's early locos and rolling stock to see a mix of independent builders' products and non-standard parent company built engines. Passenger and goods stock were largely built in house at Highbridge, but showed influences of Midland and LSWR stock. You can see a selection of official photos at http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/album/4114-sdjr-official-rolling-stock-photos/ Edited March 11, 2018 by phil_sutters 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
whart57 Posted February 24, 2018 Author Share Posted February 24, 2018 To be honest, I suspect it would have been jointly operated by the LSWR and the LBSCR, with the wheeler-dealer ousted by them. But that’s not the point, is it? You are assuming that the wheeler-dealer managed to successfully play one board off against the other, so it holds water on that basis. But what I think is irrelevant: do you find it substantial enough to support your ideas? The test is in how robust the main plot is: you could happily twiddle with the details till the cows come home, just so long as the big picture stays the same. Anyway, I thought you modelled diesels? I do, and I have a blog on here about the layout I am building. However my earlier efforts in railway modelling were based on the SECR. It was the early history of the LCDR that made me think this wheeler-dealer scenario was a believable one. When the LCDR was just the line from Strood to Faversham, and even when it extended eastwards to Dover and Ramsgate, it was assumed it would get taken over by the South Eastern. The SER board certainly assumed it was going to fall in their lap. Instead, through a combination of cussedness, alliances with other lines' promoters and financial dealings that would still cause eyebrows to be raised in our cynical climate today, the LCDR stayed independent until they entered a working partnership with the SER or more or less equal terms. But that was not till 1899. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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