RAILS ANNOUNCE CALEY 812 CLASS 0-6-0s

[Black 5 Bear]

2 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Seems so good and to repay the faith in it from the word go. A return  Saturday afternoon spin from Aviemore  two years ago behind her in a rake of ex BR Mk 2is fondly remembered.

      This morning I’m having an opportunity to catch up with much of the forum that I’ve been missing over the last few weeks,being stuck in the cardio unit of  the N.Staffs.after open heart valve surgery…..currently with just one feeding tube……looking at the above images is a sight to gladden the eyes.Well done  Rails who seem on a roll atm and of course our friends down the road at Barwell.

Best wishes Ian. Get well soon !

[Battledown]

Being a lover and modeller/cpllector of pre-grouping locomotives, I have the Improved Precedent 'Lucknow' and the as-built Jumbo on order. Looking at photos of the two you would be forgiven for thinking they are from different manufacturers, which I guess they are in that I cannot believe they come from the same factory in China. The Precedent looks as close to an out-of-the box finescale model as can be expected for plastic and cast metal, whereas the Jumbo looks like a toy train that has been tarted up - way overscale tender coping, cabsides, cab handrails and smokebox dart, over-sized handrail knobs. It just looks too toy train like. As a keen kit builder and modeller I will be able to address most of these issues if the actual model turns out to be as per the photographs. Even though I can afford it, I resent having to do this to such an expensive model seeing that Bachmann and Rails can and do produce better.

 

That said, building pre-grouping models from kits is even more expensive. I have recently completed an etched brass Adams T3 which actually cost me about £300 and over 500 hours of my time - a price I am happy and able to pay for such a great hobby.

[andytrains]

I have ordered two of 57565 to be re-numbered.

Luckily I picked up two Caley Coaches McIntosh 3000 gallon tender, Type M2, for a song, so they may be very useful!

Looks like these two are going to me my Crimble Pressie from Wife and M  in Law. (The locos).

Edited November 18, 2021 by andytrains

[Butler Henderson]

The instruction leaflet is on the Bachamnn web site

https://Bachmann-spares.co.uk/file/E3528-Class-812-2021.pdf

which advises the tender fitting cab doors should only be fitted for display.

 

The sound fitted leaflet

https://Bachmann-spares.co.uk/file/E3528-Class-812-SF-2021.pdf

advises the decoder is a  ESU Loksound Micro V5DC

[Ben Alder]

I see the motor is a coreless one. These seem to have had mixed reactions  - are any other recent Bachmann locos so fitted, and how are their running abilities? The cab doors were almost always in the open position, as seen in this crop,and presumably can be done so.

[Steamport Southport]

34 minutes ago, Ben Alder said:

I see the motor is a coreless one. These seem to have had mixed reactions  - are any other recent Bachmann locos so fitted, and how are their running abilities? The cab doors were almost always in the open position, as seen in this crop,and presumably can be done so.

 

Most of the recent smaller locomotives have coreless motors. They're very good as long as you have a suitable controller.

 

Just don't use any ancient controllers and ones with feedback. It's a bit like trying to watch a 4K Ultra HD movie on your 1950s TV. The results are going to be disappointing.

 

 

 

Jason

[Michael Hodgson]

49 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

It's a bit like trying to watch a 4K Ultra HD movie on your 1950s TV. The results are going to be disappointing.

 

I can't get replacement valves for my old TV either

[andytrains]

See:- https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p704337679/h4F62F2FE#h808da843

 

For tender details and thinness!

[JohnR]

1 hour ago, andytrains said:

See:- https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p704337679/h4F62F2FE#h808da843

 

For tender details and thinness!

 

Quite clear from that picture that we were never going to get a tender that thin in plastic. 

[AY Mod]

Has someone been rewinding the tape again whilst I was out?

[IvoryGreen456]

does anyone know when these are due to be shipped off to the people who've ordered one? 

[JohnR]

Last I heard, they are due into Rails at the end of this month.

 

I understand they are now contacting people with expired cards to get their details updated in readiness.

[Ben Alder]

6 hours ago, JohnR said:

Quite clear from that picture that we were never going to get a tender that thin in plastic. 

 

No doubt, in plastic at least, but here is what Hornby managed with their Drummond tender.

 

 

And Bachmann's offering on their C class.

 

Both in a different league to what is present on the 812, which does not begin to meet what is the norm for current releases.

[No Decorum]

On 18/11/2021 at 22:47, Ben Alder said:

I see the motor is a coreless one. These seem to have had mixed reactions  - are any other recent Bachmann locos so fitted, and how are their running abilities? The cab doors were almost always in the open position, as seen in this crop,and presumably can be done so.

I think I should eat a small portion of humble pie. My experience of Bachmann’s 1Ps is that they run superbly. Both are, however, sound fitted. I don’t think I would dare run a coreless motor with my existing principal controller unless I first installed a decoder. A decoder for DC running? Yes. 

 

I think I wrecked one of my DJ Austerities by running it a lot on DC. The three others have decoders installed and seem fine, although they aren’t worked hard.

[franciswilliamwebb]

13 hours ago, Ben Alder said:

Both in a different league to what is present on the 812, which does not begin to meet what is the norm for current releases.

 

You're spot on, there. I'm hoping the 812 is a one-off rather than the herald of a new 'design clever' era at Barwell.

[cessna152towser]

21 hours ago, No Decorum said:

I think I wrecked one of my DJ Austerities by running it a lot on DC. The three others have decoders installed and seem fine, although they aren’t worked hard.

Surely if a loco is advertised as analogue it ought to run smoothly on analogue.   If a coreless motor would only work smoothly on digital then the analogue version of the model should be fitted with a traditional motor.

I run 100% analogue on an HM2000.

I once bought a Bachmann D11 digital loco because it was offered cheaper than the analogue version.   I left the blanking plate in place and donated the chip to a fellow modeller who had gone digital.   The D11 needed a lot of power before it would move, then it would suddenly race away at unrealistic speed.  I assumed this was because it was designed for digital and I resold it fairly quickly.  I would hate to think that the analogue 812 which I have ordered would suffer the same problems.

[No Decorum]

19 minutes ago, cessna152towser said:

Surely if a loco is advertised as analogue it ought to run smoothly on analogue.   If a coreless motor would only work smoothly on digital then the analogue version of the model should be fitted with a traditional motor.

I run 100% analogue on an HM2000.

I once bought a Bachmann D11 digital loco because it was offered cheaper than the analogue version.   I left the blanking plate in place and donated the chip to a fellow modeller who had gone digital.   The D11 needed a lot of power before it would move, then it would suddenly race away at unrealistic speed.  I assumed this was because it was designed for digital and I resold it fairly quickly.  I would hate to think that the analogue 812 which I have ordered would suffer the same problems.

One would think that. We are warned that coreless motors should not be used with feedback controllers or electronic track cleaners. If the only controller you have is a feedback controller, then, as I see it, you need to buy a new controller. Alternatively, fit a decoder to your locos equipped with coreless motors. You will also need to disconnect your track cleaner or fit a switch to it and remember to use it.

 

The reason a coreless motor is chosen is because it is small and possibly also because it is cheaper. However, Hornby has produced small locos with small conventional motors. If you want a particular model which happens to have a coreless motor, there are workarounds. It isn’t ideal but it’s what we’ve got.

 

Perhaps it’s a little like adopting DCC. Models without decoders shouldn’t be put on DCC energised track but there are workarounds.

[cessna152towser]

1 hour ago, No Decorum said:

If the only controller you have is a feedback controller, then, as I see it, you need to buy a new controller. Alternatively, fit a decoder to your locos equipped with coreless motors.

If that's the case then I will be cancelling my order.

Nobody said anything about a coreless motor when I pre-ordered almost four years ago and I won't be going down the digital chip route ever, nor do I intend to go to the expense of a new controller to suit Bachmann's whims.

Edited November 21, 2021 by cessna152towser

[Henry 84F]

Good afternoon all,

 

Apologies if I've missed this somewhere; I can't find this info on the Rails website either. Do we know what kind of decoder it will need? Will it be 18 pin? 

 

Looking forward to mine,

Henry

[Steamport Southport]

3 hours ago, cessna152towser said:

Surely if a loco is advertised as analogue it ought to run smoothly on analogue.   If a coreless motor would only work smoothly on digital then the analogue version of the model should be fitted with a traditional motor.

I run 100% analogue on an HM2000.

I once bought a Bachmann D11 digital loco because it was offered cheaper than the analogue version.   I left the blanking plate in place and donated the chip to a fellow modeller who had gone digital.   The D11 needed a lot of power before it would move, then it would suddenly race away at unrealistic speed.  I assumed this was because it was designed for digital and I resold it fairly quickly.  I would hate to think that the analogue 812 which I have ordered would suffer the same problems.

 

It should work perfectly on analogue. Just not ancient controllers out of the Ark* and many feedback controllers. Also don't use track cleaners.

 

I would expect a HM2000 to be fine. Isn't that the type Hornby sell? Hornby aren't giving any warnings about coreless motors, whereas Gaugemaster and others do if they aren't compatible. Gaugemaster have been phasing feedback controllers out for some time.

 

https://uk.Hornby.com/products/hm-2000-analogue-controller-r8012

 

 

*If you are using a 50 year old controller isn't it time you bought a new one? Your models will thank you.

 

 

Jason

[Bernard Lamb]

4 hours ago, No Decorum said:

 

 

The reason a coreless motor is chosen is because it is small and possibly also because it is cheaper. 

Plus this below.

It would seem that our friends in the east currently find them much easier to make  than the conventional motor. As we are but a tiny part of the market I suspect that we will have to accept them. Or pay a heck of a lot more. A cost that will quickly render the cost of a new controller for many mass purchasers on here look like pocket money

Bernard

 

Why Use a Coreless Motor?

The coreless or Moving Coil motor has been around since the 1930s. Advances in manufacturing made them practical and cost effective in the 1960s.

No cogging torque

Smooth position and speed control

High efficiency

Low Noise

High torque

Low Weight

Very low rotor inertia

Dynamic start-stop operation

Construction

The construction of a coreless DC motor eliminates the laminated iron core of the rotor. Instead, the rotor windings are wound in a skewed, or honeycomb (known as the Faulhaber winding) fashion, forming a self-supporting hollow cylinder or basket. Because there is no iron core to support the windings, they are often held together with epoxy. The stator is made of a rare earth magnet, and sits inside the basket. All of the core produces torque and smooths operation. The design also produces high acceleration rates.

Advantages

This design allows for a motor with low inertia and high efficiency. Coreless motors can accelerate and decelerate much more rapidly than a traditional motor.

Eliminating the iron rotor also reduces torque ripple or cogging. The motor operates smoothly, even at low speeds. The lack of iron in the rotor also reduces the total mass of the motor.

Reduced noise.

High Efficiency: Efficiencies of up to 85% are possible with less heat produced in operation, compared to >50% for an iron core motor.

Extended brush life

Low time constant, meaning faster response.

[Ben Alder]

Do Hornby use coreless motors?

[JohnR]

8 minutes ago, Ben Alder said:

Do Hornby use coreless motors?

 

In some of their models, yes. Everyone does, as far as I know. 

[tractionman]

3 hours ago, Henry 84F said:

Good afternoon all,

 

Apologies if I've missed this somewhere; I can't find this info on the Rails website either. Do we know what kind of decoder it will need? Will it be 18 pin? 

 

Looking forward to mine,

Henry

 

Some discussion of DC by @Jenny Emily in the vdeo above, see

 

cheers,

 

Keith

c

 

 

 

 

[bigherb]

1 hour ago, JohnR said:

 

In some of their models, yes. Everyone does, as far as I know. 

Which ones? I have never seen one, even the diminutive Ruston and Rocket have a skew wound motors.