Shrewsbury PO Wagons ?

[John_Miles]

There is a good source of limestone at Penwyllt (aka Craigynos) at the top end of the Swansea Valley. Given that goods were charged by the mile why move limestone from Llynclys / Pantmawr to the Swansea Valley. And IIRC there is dolomitic limestone at Nantgarw just to the north of Cardiff. So again closer than Mid-Wales.

[Norton961]

Perhaps the more local supplies of Limestone to the Swansea Valley were not available in sufficient quantities for the demand in the area or that the quarries belonged to companies for there own consumption. Companies would not pay for Limestone to travel from a distance unless there was a good reason. Then of course there is the quality issue, perhaps there was a quality difference between the various quarries. The issue certainly applied to iron ore mined in different parts of the country.

[Penlan]

On the negative side - I know I have a copy book somewhere of private owner wagons registered by LNWR and thus to whom the wagons should be referred to (for repairs) if they break down - Thus if there's any in Salop, I could have mentioned.
I do have a 1911 LNWR list of all the Colleries on the LNWR, and there's very little of relevance here.

Shropshire District - LNWR.

Donnington Wood, Lilleshall and Priors Lee - all Owned by Lilleshall Coal Co., and a postal address of Prices Lee Hall, Shiffnal, Shropshire.
Wombridge - Hopley Bros., Wombridge, Nr. Wellington, Shropshire.

 

Nothing to do with this topic really, but the copy I have also has a LMS memo dated 7th Feb 1923 at the front and basically it's saying any empties traffic to go to the Notts, Derby and South Yorks area from London must be routed home via Rugby, Midland Division, because which ever company (LMS, LNER, ?) returns the empties, that company gets the loaded journey away from the Colliery.  Obviously there's more detail than that.  There's also a note that any LMS traffic from these coalfields routed to London via the Colwick route, MUST be reported as these are disadvantagous (sic) to the LMS, or words to that affect.

 

Edited February 27, 2018 by Penlan

[martin_m]

Looking for a PO wagon from Shrewsbury before grouping, the only company I can find is the Co-oP in Shrewsbury. 

I can't believe a town the size of Shrewsbury, doesn't have another in-town Merchant.

Hi,

I've not had chance to reply before now, but I have been going through ps of the S&M looking for POWs too.

Breeze Ltd has been mentioned, as has Sydney Yates and Lilleshall.

One of the reasons for the continued existence of the S&M was the quarry at Criggion, their wagons, predominantly drop-down 3 plank - not unlike the Hornby BQC offering. Other wagons carried Ceiriog Granite, Granomac and Granoplast liveries. These excited the S&M just south of the Abbey station.

Other wagons seen on the S&M include Brentnall & Cleland, Wm Cory, Cory Brothers & Co, and John Potts of Macclesfield.

Hope this is some help,

martin

[Brassey]

There was a coal merchant at Church Stretton called Hyslop.  Wagons might have been seen on the Swansea route

[Quarryscapes]

On the Cleobury Mortimer Light Railway there was a John Powell P.O., not sure if Coalport or Newport based, whilst on the Bishops Castle line Arscott and B. Bowen were prominent coal providers. 

[Norton961]

I am posting the only photo I have found of Breeze which was taken at the S&M Abbey station in the early 1930s.

 

A question for Penlan, re the lists of LNWR collieries in the area, could the search be extended to other industries? There were a number of ironworks and foundries in the area and I know that Shropshire Ironworks had their own wagons ( see an earlier post in this thread) and their was a wagon works at Shrewsbury as well as farm machinery manufacturers at Shrewsbury and Wellington.

 

David

Edited February 28, 2018 by Norton961

[Norton961]

I have found another Shropshire based P.O. wagon but I am not sure which colliery it would have been supplied by it could have been the North Staffs coalfield or the Shropshire coalfield.

 

David

[corneliuslundie]

There are a few other PO wagons, though not at all clear in most cases, in photos in books on the Bishop's Castle Railway:

BOSTON - the rest unreadable. Probable post Grouping though.

??? & BEDDOES, Bishop's Castle - a BCR based wagon; Beddoes did maintenance work for the BCR

ANTHRACITE - other lettering indistinct but from the layout probably Amalgamated Antrhracite

WEST CANNOCK - already noted, 1930s

? & BOWEN Bishop's Castle, photo about 1897

The photo with CRYNANT and PENTREMAWR is stated as dated about 1910.

There is another book on the BCR which i do not have. It may have more photos.

Jonathan

PS I have modelled a BREEZE wagon for my Sarn layout: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/94291-sarn-montgomeryshire-and-nantcwmdu-south-wales/page-5

Likewise a wagon for HANWOOD though it seems to have been camera shy.

[Fat Controller]

There is a good source of limestone at Penwyllt (aka Craigynos) at the top end of the Swansea Valley. Given that goods were charged by the mile why move limestone from Llynclys / Pantmawr to the Swansea Valley. And IIRC there is dolomitic limestone at Nantgarw just to the north of Cardiff. So again closer than Mid-Wales.

There are/were numerous sources of good-quality Carboniferous Limestone to be found all around the edges of the South Wales coalfield; the rock underlies the Coal Measures. On the Central Wales line itself, there was a quarry at Llandybie, which was rail-served into the 1960s. Elsewhere in the area, there were rail-served lime-kilns around Kidwelly, whilst I remember my old geography teacher citing the presence of quarries at Pyle and South Cornelly as being one of the factors influencing the development of the iron and steel plants around Port Talbot. However, since the 1960s, lime for the furnaces at Port Talbot has been brought, at different times, from the Peak District, Shap and Ferryhill (the last-named being Dolomitic limestone), so there must be a good reason for bringing it in.

[Penlan]

Looking at an Excel file I have, the following have been covered in various Books etc., over time.
However, what I don't have is the author of this work.  There are some 2,450 lines and umpteen columns, that is a lot of dedicated work - I know this because I compiled the Austin Seven Register for the A7CA back in 2005 and there where about 11,000 entries and a years voluntary work involved.  Almost ended in divorce, if I had been married......
There is a .pdf file by Joe Greaves through the MRRC, that gives a long list, but nowhere as detailed as this Excel file.
Something tells me - yes I hear voices - that it was made available through RMweb, but I can't find a name on any of the worksheets within the file, so if anybody knows who compiled the list, I would be grateful to know and add it to the file and credit accordingly

Meanwhile, these are the PO's listed for Shropshire, available in any of the books on PO's.

 

British Potash Co Ltd - Oldbury - Shropshire - Chemical works

Hopper Brown, George & sons - Kidderminster - Shropshire - Lime merchant - Peak roof covered

Chubb, Frederic - Wem - Shropshire - Coal merchant

Clee Hill Dhu stone co. - Ludlow - Shropshire - Quarry

Clee hill granite company - Ludlow - Shropshire - Quarry

Craven, Dunhill & co - Ironbridge - Shropshire - Brick works

Economic Coal co - Kidderminster - Shropshire - Coal Factor

Eveson, GJ - Stourbridge - Shropshire - Coal Merchant

Field & McKay - Titterstone - Shropshire - Quarry

Harper, Walter - Dawley - Shropshire - Quarry

Harrisons, George K - Stourbridge - Shropshire - Brick works

Highley Mining co - Highley - Shropshire - Colliery

Hyslop, CJ - Church Stretton - Shropshire - Coal Merchant

Lilleshall Co - Lilleshall - Shropshire - Quarry

Lilleshall Co - Lilleshall - Shropshire

Russell, Edward - Netherton - Shropshire - Coal merchant

Shrewsbury Co-operative Society Ltd - Shrewsbury - Shropshire - Co-operative

Steetley Co. Ltd - Llynclys - Shropshire - Quarry

West Midland Sugar Co Ltd - Kidderminster - Shropshire - Foodstuff manufacturer Tank

 

As always, there's the Co-oP's PO's that can be 'imagined'    

Edited February 28, 2018 by Penlan

[Penlan]

Obviously that list isn't exhaustive, that's only the wagons specifically in PO Books. 

.... and no, I haven't found the LNWR PO wagon repairs booklet etc.,

Edited February 28, 2018 by Penlan

[Norton961]

I have been doing some more digging in my research files and the Coal Merchants at Wellington (Shropshire) were receiving coal from the following collieries: Granville (Lilleshall Co), Littleton Col, Madey Wood (Madeley Wood Coll Co), Rugeley Coll and Cradeley Coll. Anthracite and Furnacite was sourced from Mountain Ash, but I don’t know which Colliery.

The Coal Merchants at Wellington ordered their coal through Smallshaws of Shrewsbury who were coal factors, but I don’t have any more information.

As an aside does anyone know of any photos of Madeley Wood Colliery Company wagons, which were at Kemberton in the Telford area.

I also found that the Coal merchants at Wellington also had Nutty Slack delivered from collieries at Heanor and Belper, but again I don’t know which collieries.

 

David

[tanatvalley]

There is a photo of a Breeze Ltd wagon at Alveley Colliery’s coal screens on 9 February 1939 along with several Highley Mining Co. wagons. The Breeze wagon appears to be 5 plank and numbered 50. Original photo in NRM, published in Severn Valley Railway - a view from the past by Michael A Vans, Ian Allan, 1998. Outside Penlan’s timeframe.

[Fat Controller]

I have been doing some more digging in my research files and the Coal Merchants at Wellington (Shropshire) were receiving coal from the following collieries: Granville (Lilleshall Co), Littleton Col, Madey Wood (Madeley Wood Coll Co), Rugeley Coll and Cradeley Coll. Anthracite and Furnacite was sourced from Mountain Ash, but I don’t know which Colliery.

The Coal Merchants at Wellington ordered their coal through Smallshaws of Shrewsbury who were coal factors, but I don’t have any more information.

As an aside does anyone know of any photos of Madeley Wood Colliery Company wagons, which were at Kemberton in the Telford area.

I also found that the Coal merchants at Wellington also had Nutty Slack delivered from collieries at Heanor and Belper, but again I don’t know which collieries.

 

David

Phurnacite, a Patent 'Smokeless' Fuel, was manufactured at Abercwmboi, a short distance to the north-west of Mountain Ash; the plant was in use until fairly recent times. I'm a bit wary of anthracite coming from around there; the area in which it is found is the highly-faulted region to the west of the Vale of Neath, most notably in the Amman and Gwendraeth Valleys.

[davy crockett]

  I found one in my collection.

[Penlan]

Found the Excel listing of PO's
It's by s_ellison of this parish.
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/98911-private-owner-wagons-index-searchable/

and I agree with swampy, this one is more accessible than the Lightmoor one - If you have Excel.

Many thanks, very useful.

[Hesperus]

Breidden Hill Granite Quarries or Granomac or CEIRIOG at the end of the S+M's Criggion branch

 

There is a clear and 90% complete photo of a Sydney Yates Coal, Coke and Lime Merchant's 5 plank wagon on page 21 of Peter Johnsons An illistrated history of the Shropshire and Montgomeryshire Light Railway.

 

I have a couple of Field and Mackay wagons,  there is an awful photo on my layout thread in my signiture but I can take a better one if needs be.

[Norton961]

Having dug through my files I came across these.

 

I have no information on the Shrewsbury wagon.

 

David

[Compound2632]

That last is a nice photo. Any idea when and where? 1900-ish? In the front row, a Midland D299 5-plank open (inevitably) and a sheeted open - Great Western three-plank, by the look of the iron solebars withe characteristic holes in them. The Coppice Colliery wagon also looks to have an iron or steel frame. The Hanwood wagon looks longer as well as being taller, but I wonder if that's just distortion - the whole photo has the look of being from the edge of a larger plate. 

 

The LNWR covered goods wagon - D32 or D33 - provides further evidence for the prevalence of the two-tone livery. 

[Norton961]

Compound, the photo is a blow up of a photo of a Webb 3 cylinder compound at Shrewsbury shed and the wagons are in the background with the main line to Hereford behind. Yes the date would be around 1900.

 

David

[Norton961]

I have just seen a photo of an ex LNWR 0-8-4 tank entering Shrewsbury just after the grouping and the first wagon is Thomas Merthyr Colliery Abercanaid. However the photo is to indistinct to reproduce. The wagon name is written on the back of the photo. Presumably this wagon would have come up the Central Wales line? Not sure if this colliery also supplied Anthracite.

 

David

[Fat Controller]

I have just seen a photo of an ex LNWR 0-8-4 tank entering Shrewsbury just after the grouping and the first wagon is Thomas Merthyr Colliery Abercanaid. However the photo is to indistinct to reproduce. The wagon name is written on the back of the photo. Presumably this wagon would have come up the Central Wales line? Not sure if this colliery also supplied Anthracite.

 

David

Given the colliery was just outside Merthyr Tydfil, I would say the coal was taken via the LN&WR to Abergavenny, thence via the North and West to Shrewsbury. Taking it to Llandeilo Junction, to send it north via the Central Wales would involve paying the GWR for a lot of extra miles.

The colliery was on the Steam Coal part of the coalfield; anthracite was mined west of the Tawe Valley. 

[Norton961]

Brian, thanks for the informative reply.

Given that steam coal was available from collieries closer to Shrewsbury ( such as Lilleshal Co ) why would steam coal be shipped all the way from Merthyr? Perhaps a coal merchant had an arrangement with Thomas Merthyr colliery. I know that the coal merchants at Wellington (Shropshire) had arrangements with not only the Lilleshal Co but a number of collieries in the Cannock area. The Wellington coal merchants did however receive “slack” from Ripley in Derbyshire. I have no idea what “Slack” would be or who would by it.

 

David

[Fat Controller]

Brian, thanks for the informative reply.

Given that steam coal was available from collieries closer to Shrewsbury ( such as Lilleshal Co ) why would steam coal be shipped all the way from Merthyr? Perhaps a coal merchant had an arrangement with Thomas Merthyr colliery. I know that the coal merchants at Wellington (Shropshire) had arrangements with not only the Lilleshal Co but a number of collieries in the Cannock area. The Wellington coal merchants did however receive “slack” from Ripley in Derbyshire. I have no idea what “Slack” would be or who would by it.

 

David

'Slack' was a name for finer coal, which was used to bank the fire up overnight, almost cutting off the air-supply; there was also 'nutty slack' which had bigger pieces in it. Quite what the difference between 'slack' and 'duff' (fine anthracite, used for briquettes) is, I couldn't say.