The Outlook Has Improved!

[sem34090]

I can honestly say I have been inspired to now not give a flying wotsit (Other brands of potato snacks are available) about what some on here think, and I have been taking it all rather too personally.

 

I also thank you for your kind words Simon, and I apologise for any offence caused, indeed your points make far more logical sense than my own. Whilst I may have been right on a few points, looking back at the posting now (Having had something to eat, thereby causing me to be less irate perhaps!) I was more than slightly paranoid and angered by things. If anyone wants me to remove those postings then I will. For now I will leave them simply so that all the other posts make sense!

[Regularity]

Leave the record in place: the debate is useful.

That’s just perefectly normal paranoia. Everyone in the universe suffers from that.

 

[sem34090]

Agreed, but we can now move on and maybe, just maybe, revert to the topic laid down by the OP!

 

Your PM was received and has been replied to.

[Regularity]

Am I alone in getting crosser when I get more complimentary about people’s abilities to exceed and succeed?

  

Probably ...

It comes from a lifetime of seeing people deciding that something is too difficult before they even try.

 

I can’t believe I am going to quote Howard Jones, but... “throw off those mental chains”.

[Jammy2305]

There are signs that the days of producing only late condition models of pre-Grouping types and, therefore, of restricting the pre-Grouping liveries to 'as preserved' examples, are finally behind us.

 

I'm still hoping Hornby will take the initiative to backdate their J15 into a Y14. There's very little that actually needs doing given how many variations Hornby have already made consideration for (tender frames, roof heights etc).

 

It just makes sense to me to release an accurate model of No.564 in GER blue:

 

1) The model can count for both pre-grouping and pres thus widening its appeal

2) It's a damn gorgeous livery and pretty things sell (SECR C Class anyone?)

3) A lot of the GER features (stovepipe chimney etc) survived into later years alongside their LNER counterparts making for a fascinating minefield​ mix of detail variations that, invariably, would give added interest to anyone looking to purchase another J15 but wanting something that isn't a carbon copy of their first.

 

I can but dream... 

 

 

James

[Compound2632]

As Edwardian has said, RTR pre-grouping locomotives are a leg up to pre-grouping modelling. The prospect of the TMC Class O, for example, has stirred my dormant interest in the North Eastern and got me hunting out my unfinished D&S 6-wheelers and my Slater's 20 T hopper wagons. Likewise, the imminent Bachmann 1532 has me sorting out my Ratio Bain suburbans into an authentic Birmingham area set. Their Coal Tank piled on the moral pressure to finish my LRM D16 brake van...

 

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

   It comes from a lifetime of seeing people deciding that something is too difficult before they even try.

 

I can’t believe I am going to quote Howard Jones, but... “throw off those mental chains”.

Not necessarily deciding it's too difficult; rather that there were always safer, more predictable ways for Hornby et al to make a living..........

 

The cynic realist in me recognises that the recent vogue for niche prototypes (pre-group and otherwise) owes more to running short of more obvious targets than any Damascene conversion.

 

John

Edited March 3, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Worsdell forever]

NER 20 T hopper wagons.JPG

 

Don't mean to disappoint but the NER P7 20t coal hopper never carried that livery, despite it saying so in the instructions. According to correspondence in the North Eastern Express at the time, an unknown NERA member had supplied Slaters with the livery information and they believe had supplied them with a photo of a hopper in that livery which turned out to be a P6 15/17t one. The P7s went straight from NORTH EASTERN RAILWAY to N   E.

[Compound2632]

Don't mean to disappoint but the NER P7 20t coal hopper never carried that livery, despite it saying so in the instructions. According to correspondence in the North Eastern Express at the time, an unknown NERA member had supplied Slaters with the livery information and they believe had supplied them with a photo of a hopper in that livery which turned out to be a P6 15/17t one. The P7s went straight from NORTH EASTERN RAILWAY to N   E.

 

Bah. I was misled in my youthful ignorance - these were built ten years or so before the publication (and my prompt purchase ) of North Eastern Record Vol. 2 (HMRS, 1997) which confirms what you say - and with shaded lettering to boot. I may still have the transfer sheets - but did they have the long title? Also, I think the brakes as modelled are appropriate for Northern and Southern Division wagons but not Central Division. On the plus side, I note the P7 was introduced in 1902, so just within my favoured time window - I'd assumed they were later.

[Worsdell forever]

Bah. I was misled in my youthful ignorance - these were built ten years or so before the publication (and my prompt purchase ) of North Eastern Record Vol. 2 (HMRS, 1997) which confirms what you say - and with shaded lettering to boot. I may still have the transfer sheets - but did they have the long title? Also, I think the brakes as modelled are appropriate for Northern and Southern Division wagons but not Central Division. On the plus side, I note the P7 was introduced in 1902, so just within my favoured time window - I'd assumed they were later.

 

Side brakes are correct for ND and SD, CD wagons would have end levers. I would have thought only the earliest would have had shaded lettering and there's not enough letters on the transfer sheet to do both sides... 

[Compound2632]

I found the Slater's transfers for the P7 hopper wagons. Curious: it has a complete alphabet, plus N.E.R., N S C D (for the division markings), L and Y from a couple of alphanumeric "numbers", and 20 TONS all in the same height and style. 20 TONS is only needed for the later large N E livery, but that still leaves one short of one R and two As to spell out NORTH EASTERN RAILWAY!

 

One livery point that had previously eluded me but I've just noticed on leafing through North Eastern Record Vol. 2 is that the buffer guides should be painted black.

 

Going back to the topic of pre-Grouping RTR, this NER hopper coke wagon has been available for many, many years. It might be R5? - I'm not well-informed. (R781 is not a Diagram number!) I believe that at least the lettering style is correct, apart from needing full stops after R and the number, although there are several significant points of departure from the prototype. (I don't think this model was designed by laser scanning a preserved example!) Also available in blue.

Edited March 10, 2018 by Compound2632

[Worsdell forever]

I found the Slater's transfers for the P7 hopper wagons. Curious: it has a complete alphabet, plus N.E.R., N S C D (for the division markings), L and Y from a couple of alphanumeric "numbers", and 20 TONS all in the same height and style. 20 TONS is only needed for the later large N E livery, but that still leaves one short of one R and two As to spell out NORTH EASTERN RAILWAY!

 

One livery point that had previously eluded me but I've just noticed on leafing through North Eastern Record Vol. 2 is that the buffer guides should be painted black.

 

Going back to the topic of pre-Grouping RTR, this NER hopper coke wagon has been available for many, many years. It might be R5? - I'm not well-informed. (R781 is not a Diagram number!) I believe that at least the lettering style is correct, apart from needing full stops after R and the number, although there are several significant points of departure from the prototype. (I don't think this model was designed by laser scanning a preserved example!) Also available in blue.

A triang toy loosely based on an R5.

[Compound2632]

A triang toy loosely based on an R5.

 

Indeed - I was intending humour. But I can't help wondering if the body is at all close enough to do anything with? I suspect it's too long for starters...

[Edwardian]

A few updates from Bachmann by way of the answers to a number of questions I put to them recently in relation to pre-Grouping models:

 

- I asked if the 8' Fox bogies produced for the Birdcages would be made available separately, as is the case with several other steam-age bogie types.  My correspondent was " not aware of any plans at present to offer these bogies as accessory items"

 

- I wondered if we might see an 'as-built' LB&SCR H2 Atlantic in umber, after all, Bachmann showed an EP that featured the bogie brakes.  I was told "no further releases of the H1/H2 locomotives planned at present, I will pass your suggestion onto our Research and Development team for future consideration".  When pressed, the answer was given again, with a little more detail:

 

"our tooling allows most of the major variations to be modelled such that we can produce accurate models for the LBSCR, SR and BR periods. The initial releases include models for the pre-grouping, grouping and nationalisation eras across the two classes and again when these models have sold through and we feel there is sufficient demand to produce further models, different variants, liveries etc. will be considered"  

 

- Would the LNWR Coal Tank be issued in lined LNWR livery? Likewise, "we have no further versions of this model planned at present but I will pass your suggestion onto our R&D team for future consideration".  Again, when pressed, a slightly more hopeful comment came forth:

 

"Whilst we still have stock of each of the three Coal Tanks released last year we would not be looking to produce further versions – as any further production would require several new versions to be produced to meet minimum order quantities. However, once all stock of the current models has diminished and we fell that there is enough demand for further examples, we will schedule production of such and it is possible that a model in lined LNWR livery may be included at that time."

 

- A subject dear to many hearts is the question of a re-run of the SE&CR C class in full lined Wainwright livery.  The answer is disappointing, and does not bode well for a Bachmann D Class: 

 

"we have no plans to repeat the fully lined Wainwright liveried model that was part of the initial release. To produce this model required an extensive amount of decoration with a lot of printed lining, in multiple colours, on components such as the buffer tubes and wheel rims which do not lend themselves to being printed on easily in such a small scale. The application of printing to such small and intricate parts results in a higher rejection rate which, along with the extra labour input required to complete these printing and decoration processes, adds greatly to the cost of production for an intricate model such as this. Therefore with the recent price rises in China, in particular with regards to staff wages, if produced now the price of this model would be much greater than the original release and indeed significantly more than a C Class in a ‘plain’ livery"

 

So, don't hold your breath for any of this, but one day you might see a lined Coal Tank. But, then, I've got an old Gem one (somewhere)!

[sem34090]

And yet Hattons and, to an ever so slightly lesser extent, Hornby can pull that gorgeous Wainwright livery off and maintain a reasonable price-point...

[Edwardian]

And yet Hattons and, to an ever so slightly lesser extent, Hornby can pull that gorgeous Wainwright livery off and maintain a reasonable price-point...

 

Indeed, as I have just pointed out on the Hatton's P thread.

 

There is more and, perhaps, more intricate, work required to apply the livery to a tender locomotive, but even so ...

 

My guess would be that Bachmann have looked in horror at the cost of repeating the exercise in the light of increased Chinese labour costs, and remain unconvinced that enough customers could be found to purchase a model at a cost so much greater than the original run or their current C Class versions.

 

I seem to recall there was a similar issue with repeating the Blue Pullman.  I seem to recall Bachmann did repeat it, but was obviously comfortable that it could shift enough of them ant the new, much higher, price. Not at all sure of my facts here, however, as it's not really within my sphere of interest. 

 

in short, it seems that the Wainwright livery was something viable only in past circumstances that no longer obtain.

 

The going rate for one of the originals is £300+

[sem34090]

And yet...

[Edwardian]

And yet...

 

Perhaps I should have said:

 

In short, it seems that, on Bachmann's assessment, the Wainwright livery was something viable only in past circumstances that no longer obtain.

 

I suspect that you would need to be a very substantial concern, retailer or museum, to underwrite minimum runs for a change of livery to an elaborate pre-Grouping scheme these days. 

 

Were it within my power, I would commission the following liveries (the tooling for which exists):

 

- H2 as-built in umber

 

- H2 as-built in lined photographic grey

 

- C Class in lined Wainwright

 

- LNWR Coal Tank in lined livery

[sem34090]

Add to that a G2 in LNWR Livery... I know it's late but it would look fantastic nonetheless.

 

And a mainstream release of the 8K and (Insert GCR classification for the J11's here) in GCR livery would also be nice.

 

But I digress.

 

Another thing though. There is one vehicle which I cannot understand why it hasn't been produced yet, and even less so given that Kernow is making a different version:

 

This diagram of LSWR road van. I know it was a later design, but can be produced in a very wide range of liveries, albeit almost all appeared post-WW1:

Edited May 21, 2018 by sem34090

[Poggy1165]

It's a straw in the wind, but I have clocked the fact that DJH have announced two new 7mm kits for small, pre-group locos. I have thought for many years that small, pre-group engines are just the thing for the typical small branch line that most of us have in that scale.

 

Frankly, if I was given a P2 or a (BR) 9F gratis, I could not sensibly run it, certainly not with an appropriate train.

 

OK, 4mm is a bit more forgiving and you can (just) squeeze a main line layout into a sort of second bedroom space with some compromises. But even in that scale, I should have thought that small, pre-group locos would be much appreciated. After all, such engines lived well into BR days, certainly on the former LNER and SR, and to a lesser extent on the other two.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Perhaps I should have said:

 

In short, it seems that, on Bachmann's assessment, the Wainwright livery was something viable only in past circumstances that no longer obtain.

 

I suspect that you would need to be a very substantial concern, retailer or museum, to underwrite minimum runs for a change of livery to an elaborate pre-Grouping scheme these days. 

 

Were it within my power, I would commission the following liveries (the tooling for which exists):

 

- H2 as-built in umber

 

- H2 as-built in lined photographic grey

 

- C Class in lined Wainwright

 

- LNWR Coal Tank in lined livery

It probably is within your power, if your budget were big enough!

 

I gave up a while ago hoping the Coal Tank would be done in lined livery. I would not mind if it had at least been done as a Collector's Club one. I have the current LNWR one and will probably get it repainted one day.

 

As much as I want it to be more popular, I cant see pre-grouping locos and stock ever coming out in more than the current dribs and drabs when it suits manufacturers, retailers, the NRM, etc.

Alex

 

Transfers or commission a professional builder to line it out for your. If lined with bowpen. By using enamel paints, which most professionals and amateurs, do it wouldn't need varnishing, so leaving the original paint finish untouched.

 

The former is cheaper and need varnishing to protect the transfers, but not difficult.

 

Of course the real issue here is that you are at the mercy of the manufacturer/commissioner, who probably have no realistic/accurate indicator of  how well a new model will, sell. Even less if re-released with a different livery. when some of the initial euphoric purchasing will have absorbed some of the interest.

[Edwardian]

It's a straw in the wind, but I have clocked the fact that DJH have announced two new 7mm kits for small, pre-group locos. I have thought for many years that small, pre-group engines are just the thing for the typical small branch line that most of us have in that scale.

 

Frankly, if I was given a P2 or a (BR) 9F gratis, I could not sensibly run it, certainly not with an appropriate train.

 

OK, 4mm is a bit more forgiving and you can (just) squeeze a main line layout into a sort of second bedroom space with some compromises. But even in that scale, I should have thought that small, pre-group locos would be much appreciated. After all, such engines lived well into BR days, certainly on the former LNER and SR, and to a lesser extent on the other two.

 

A lot of the good stuff nowadays is being produced for 7mm, but I am not about to change scale!

 

 

It probably is within your power, if your budget were big enough!

 

 

 

 

It would be ... but it isn't!

[Compound2632]

And there I was, hoping for a version of the Coal Tank with original sloping smokebox front and flap door - unlined of course.

[Edwardian]

And there I was, hoping for a version of the Coal Tank with original sloping smokebox front and flap door - unlined of course.

 

Well, I doubt they'll tool for an earlier version - they never have for the E4 - but they do do an unlined version for you to take a razor saw to!

[Compound2632]

Well, I doubt they'll tool for an earlier version - they never have for the E4 - but they do do an unlined version for you to take a razor saw to!

 

Actually, I have some Fox transfers for my unlined one. I think c. 1903 the modified smokebox door in conjunction with full lining was typical. They were unlined when first built because they were intended as goods engines, which at that date were unlined. By the lte 1890s, everything was lined and Coal Tanks were being used for passenger work, their brakes having been found inadequate for goods work. Unlined black per the Bachmann model was a Great War economy measure.

 

So no, no plan to chop mine up yet. I'm reserving that for the Dean Goods, though I've yet to buy one. May have missed the boat on that, but that's another story / thread.