Annie's Virtual Pre-Grouping, Grouping and BR Layouts & Workbench

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, Annie said:

Another old photo because I wanted to post it.  No date information or anything else with this one, but I'd say it's safe money that it was taken at Swindon.  This is a large image so there's lots to see.  Nice pair of 517's there.

 

There's an outside-framed 2-4-0 (probably) with a Belpaire boiler, so that must help with date.

 

I like the loco numbers chalked up on the bunkers of the 517s. Wouldn't want them swapping bunkers would we - it would confuse the poor 21st century modeller all the more!

 

And you're reminding me that I'm overdue for the optician - not having been since the onset of the pandemic.

Edited December 3, 2021 by Compound2632

[Northroader]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

For me, it's particularly interesting to see the BG version of the three-plank wagons, many of which (as I understand it) were converted to SG. Certainly from the side elevation alone one would struggle to spot the difference. 

 

The 6-wheeler vans are sui generis - nothing like them on the SG. One wonders why?

Probably Swindon used iron underframes at quite an early date, for goods and passenger work, so that they could last longer than equivalent wood frames. Money was tight at that period, and broad gauge was on a downturn, so it made sense to cascade old passenger vans into goods vans. There was acres of space inside, you see stories of how the guards area was stuffed with straw to keep them warm in winter, supposedly the vans could also act as “road vans”.

[Northroader]

The works photo is Swindon, for me the star in that picture is the one tucked behind 528s chimney, a Belpaire boilered 2-2-2 (what bit you can see of the frames don’t look like a Barnum?)

[Caley Jim]

16 hours ago, Annie said:

https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/35027  'Mr Punch's Railway Book'  by J.A. Hammerton et al.

Turning Business into Pleasure:  That's exactly how the GNoS and Highland worked their 'connections' at Elgin!

 

Origins of Railways:  They go back much further than that!  In Isaiah 6:1, in the King James version, 'In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.'

 

Jim

[Compound2632]

AT THE STATION BOOKSTALL:-

 

SPORTING GENT: "I say, Caruthers, have you seen the latest number of Punch? Sexist, racist, ageist stuff, ain't it?"

CARUTHERS: "Rather, I'll say. Get me a copy, would you?"

SPORTING GENT: "Right-ho. I say, have you seen the ankle on that Mlle. Zebrowska? Game filly, what?"

[Annie]

Wonderful, - delightful, - Stephen you've just given me a good laugh to kick off my morning.

[Edwardian]

5 hours ago, Annie said:

Another old photo because I wanted to post it.  No date information or anything else with this one, but I'd say it's safe money that it was taken at Swindon Wolverhampton Swindon (....um).  This is a large image so there's lots to see.  Nice pair of 517's there.

 

 

 

 

Well, that style of bunker is a Swindon feature. I'll dig out the RCTS volume tomorrow to see if it sheds any light.

[Edwardian]

PS, I think that's A Shop at Swindon

 

[Annie]

16 hours ago, Edwardian said:

PS, I think that's A Shop at Swindon

Thanks James.  For a 19th century GWR enthusiast my general knowledge about Swindon can be quite woeful at times.

 

Some good news though, - Steve Flanders has told me that he is working on a 'Queen' class 2-2-2 of the 1870s and the words 'Armstrong Goods' were also mentioned in passing as well.

 

EDIT:  I hope Steve is going to do the early domeless boiler engines and not the later brass tea urn ones.

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by Annie
added a picture

[Annie]

Morning GWR cheer up picture:  In December 1866, 2-4-0 locomotive No 374 of the '111' class was outshopped new from Wolverhampton Works.  But this photograph by W Beckerlegge was taken after the locomotive was rebuilt in 1898 with a Standard Goods class boiler (with a big brass 'tea urn' ).   The '111' class of 20 locomotives worked secondary trains in the Great Western Railway’s northern area around Chester. No 374 was also shedded at Hereford, working trains to Chester and Birmingham. She was withdrawn in September 1904.

Despite my Broad Gauge leanings I do like Wolverhampton engines, but preferably before Dean got at them. 

 

[Compound2632]

17 hours ago, Annie said:

 

Now that has very much the proportions of a Patrick Stirling 2-2-2, which I think must be a coincidence because I can't find any evidence of a connection. (Though in the course of digging I did unearth the nugget that Archibald Sturrock was cousin to the Stirling brothers - kick one and they all limp.)

[Compound2632]

11 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Now that has very much the proportions of a Patrick Stirling 2-2-2, which I think must be a coincidence because I can't find any evidence of a connection. (Though in the course of digging I did unearth the nugget that Archibald Sturrock was cousin to the Stirling brothers - kick one and they all limp.)

 

... except that I had missed the obvious point that Archibald Sturrock was Daniel Gooch's assistant at Swindon throughout the 1840s.

 

I really must draw up that "family tree" of 19th century locomotive engineers!

[Annie]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

... except that I had missed the obvious point that Archibald Sturrock was Daniel Gooch's assistant at Swindon throughout the 1840s.

 

I really must draw up that "family tree" of 19th century locomotive engineers!

I think that would be a very useful 'family tree' to have Stephen.  When you start looking at who was an assistant to who and the whereabouts engineers were working and for which companies over the course of their lives a definite pattern begins to emerge.

[DonB]

On 03/12/2021 at 15:43, Compound2632 said:

 

For me, it's particularly interesting to see the BG version of the three-plank wagons, many of which (as I understand it) were converted to SG. Certainly from the side elevation alone one would struggle to spot the difference. 

 

The 6-wheeler vans are sui generis - nothing like them on the SG. One wonders why?

 

My guess would be the need to keep the Cleminson mechanism in good working order. There would be considerable difficulty in trying to have a regular service schedule for a goods wagon.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, DonB said:

My guess would be the need to keep the Cleminson mechanism in good working order. 

 

Those BG 6-wheelers, like standard gauge 6-wheelers in general, almost certainly don't use the Cleminson arrangement but rely on a bit of side-play for the centre axle. That was adequate for the curvature of most standard and broad gauge lines. The Cleminson underframe was developed for narrow gauge lines with tighter curvature and of course is a boon to us modellers with our unprototypically sharp curves. 

 

1 hour ago, DonB said:

There would be considerable difficulty in trying to have a regular service schedule for a goods wagon.

 

I wouldn't be quite so confident of that - but as yet I lack definite evidence.

[DonB]

29 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Those BG 6-wheelers, like standard gauge 6-wheelers in general, almost certainly don't use the Cleminson arrangement but rely on a bit of side-play for the centre axle. That was adequate for the curvature of most standard and broad gauge lines. The Cleminson underframe was developed for narrow gauge lines with tighter curvature and of course is a boon to us modellers with our unprototypically sharp curves. 

 

 

I wouldn't be quite so confident of that - but as yet I lack definite evidence.

 

I did think that I was on shaky ground when I referred to the Cleminson system, but didn't know that side-play was usual or more likely for BG wagons. Just showing my general ignorance of BG matters (again!).

Many (all ?) other SG companies ran 6-Wheel coaches at some time, so the failure to adopt a  6--wheel van is a bit of a puzzle, although allowing them on to private sidings such as the the Burton breweries' network would give a few headaches with their sharp turns !

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, DonB said:

Many (all ?) other SG companies ran 6-Wheel coaches at some time, so the failure to adopt a  6--wheel van is a bit of a puzzle, although allowing them on to private sidings such as the the Burton breweries' network would give a few headaches with their sharp turns !

 

Not only sharp curves in private and other sidings but also wagon turntables.

 

The North British made a brave attempt with 6-wheel goods vans; I think the Caledonian had some too. There may have been something about Scottish operating conditions that was slightly more favourable for them.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Compound2632

[Regularity]

Bumpy track is also an issue for six-wheeled vehicles: I know that 0-6-0s and similar were used for shunting, by their wheelbase was shorter.

[Compound2632]

44 minutes ago, Regularity said:

Bumpy track is also an issue for six-wheeled vehicles: 

 

Which is why bogie cars became standard in North America very early on.

[Caley Jim]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I think the Caledonian had some too. 

Dia. 80, with roof doors and end ladders on 8'6" + 8'6" w/b, and Dia.115 with no roof doors on 9'0" + 9'0" w/b.  They also had several other wagon types on 6-wheeled underframes, e.g. swivel (bolster) and rail.

 

Jim

[Annie]

The wonderfully named 'Fast Goods Wagons' were inventively created from the late 1870s onwards by making use of underframes from withdrawn 6 wheel coaches.  Because of the variety of underframes that were employed for this purpose individual dimensions tended to vary a bit even if they did follow the same basic design.  What is plain though is that they don't have Cleminson underframes.  I checked the specs on older 6 wheel goods wagons from the 1830s-1840s and their underframes are also of an ordinary kind as well, - though of a much shorter wheelbase than the 'Fast Goods' types of the late 1870s.

I have some of Steve Flanders's very nice 'Fast Goods Wagons' which are painted in GWR grey just to confuse the armchair experts, though some apparently were painted red as well.

Edit:  Some of these 6 wheel opens were converted to the narrow gauge as open fish trucks and lasted into the first decade of the 20th century.

 

 

Edited December 5, 2021 by Annie
More information

[MikeOxon]

1 hour ago, Annie said:

The wonderfully named 'Fast Goods Wagons' were inventively created from the late 1870s onwards by making use of underframes from withdrawn 6 wheel coaches.  Because of the variety of underframes that were employed for this purpose individual dimensions tended to vary a bit even if they did follow the same basic design. 

Looking at that collection, the amount of variation is extraordinary.  The 'make do and mend' policy towards the end of the Broad Gauge era led to this variety, I expect. 

[Annie]

On 04/12/2021 at 05:13, Annie said:

Another old photo because I wanted to post it.  No date information or anything else with this one, but I'd say it's safe money that it was taken at Swindon Wolverhampton Swindon (....um).  This is a large image so there's lots to see.  Nice pair of 517's there.

 

 

I've been informed that No.1971 was built new in May 1890 and rebuilt as a pannier tank in August 1914 so that helps to narrow down the date of this photo a bit.

[Compound2632]

6 hours ago, Annie said:

I've been informed that No.1971 was built new in May 1890 and rebuilt as a pannier tank in August 1914 so that helps to narrow down the date of this photo a bit.

 

The engine away on the rear left that I thought might be an outside-framed 2-4-0 but @Northroader thinks is a 2-2-2 has a Belpaire boiler, so presumably that puts us into the 20th century. When might be the earliest date for that?

[Jake The Rat]

17 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

The North British made a brave attempt with 6-wheel goods vans; I think the Caledonian had some too.

 

 

Most likely true, I guess. This CR 6-wheel fish van model was made by Edward Heaps, so I assume it's accurate.

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Jake The Rat