Annie's Virtual Pre-Grouping, Grouping and BR Layouts & Workbench

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Jake The Rat said:

Most likely true, I guess. This CR 6-wheel fish van model was made by Edward Heaps, so I assume it's accurate.

 

6-wheeled fish vans were more usual but they're coaching stock rather than goods wagons. 

[Annie]

7 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The engine away on the rear left that I thought might be an outside-framed 2-4-0 but @Northroader thinks is a 2-2-2 has a Belpaire boiler, so presumably that puts us into the 20th century. When might be the earliest date for that?

The engine is also fitted with the shorter chimney received when joining the Belpaire club.  That makes it  circa 1903 according to photos shewn in Russell Volume 1 (Alleluia! Alleluia!).

[Annie]

7 hours ago, Jake The Rat said:

 

 

Most likely true, I guess. This CR 6-wheel fish van model was made by Edward Heaps, so I assume it's accurate.

 

I recognise that layout  

And yes Ed makes good and accurate digital models.

 

My old layout 'Cairnrigg to Baleesie'  presently being tidied up a bit in the beta version of Trainz TRS22 .

[Edwardian]

14 hours ago, Annie said:

I've been informed that No.1971 was built new in May 1890 and rebuilt as a pannier tank in August 1914 so that helps to narrow down the date of this photo a bit.

 

The number plate does look as if it features a '9', but that would make it a Class 850.

 

It really does not look like an 850 to me. These were small engines and they had a much shallower bunkers.

 

If we accept the number is 1871, that gives us an 1854. The depth of the bunker and the pattern with a flared top but straight front is congruent with an 1854.

 

If this is 1871, it is good news insofar as dating is concerned. The 1854s were built with S2 boilers, which produced a forward position for a dome. This engine has a mid-position dome on the tank (rear ring on the boiler), which makes it a S4, with which 1871 was fitted in February 1906. A belpaire firebox was fitted in August 1914, so you are between these dates.   

 

Turning to the 517s, the front one, 528, poses a question. I find it hard to judge from the angle, but if the done protrudes forward of the tank front, it has a R3 boiler. If the position is aft of the tank front, it's a rear-position R4. the picture must be after March 1910. I think it's a R3, however.  If I'm wrong and the boiler on 528 is a R4, then the date is between March 1910 and August 1914.

 

So, if I am right about 1871 and 528, the picture us taken in the period February 1906 to March 1910.  

 

If the place is A Erecting Shop, Swindon, which I think it is, a shop was constructed from 1900 and commissioned in 1904, so that fits with the date range derived from the two locomotives.

 

By the way, I do not believe the belpaire loco to the rear is a single, but that's another story ...

[eheaps]

On 04/12/2021 at 17:40, Annie said:

I think that would be a very useful 'family tree' to have Stephen.  When you start looking at who was an assistant to who and the whereabouts engineers were working and for which companies over the course of their lives a definite pattern begins to emerge.

 

Even when they weren't related or working with each other you'll probably find a lot of railway engineers belonged to the same branch of the Institute for Mechanical Engineers and/or the same lodge of the Free Masons.

[Annie]

This is all very confusing James.  The numberplate clearly reads 1971 so what is it doing with that bunker?  And to top it off the mystery engine hasn't got 'H' spoke wheels.

 

GWR '850' early Swindonised condition.

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Annie
more to say

[Edwardian]

46 minutes ago, Annie said:

This is all very confusing James.  The numberplate clearly reads 1971 so what is it doing with that bunker?  And to top it off the mystery engine hasn't got 'H' spoke wheels.

 

GWR '850' early Swindonised condition.

 

 

Yes, I agree with all that too!

 

A re-boilered 850 with the cab further to the front (covering the rear wheel splasher and creating room for a deeper bunker?

 

Or rear extension to frames?  More usual GW practice*.

 

Some 850s apparently had extended bunkers, but I don't know when or how it was done.

 

Not all are pictured with the distinctive spokes. 

 

Built with a R3, 1971 was fitted with a R4 in April 1904.

 

So, being an 850 brings the date range forward a couple of years to when A Shop was new.

 

*Further thought: Comparing the drawing and the picture, one can clearly see that the rear frames of 1971 have been extended.  They are longer behind the steps, the extension lying beyond the vertical column of 3 rivets. 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Edwardian

[Annie]

29 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

*Further thought: Comparing the drawing and the picture, one can clearly see that the rear frames of 1971 have been extended.  They are longer behind the steps, the extension lying beyond the vertical column of 3 rivets. 

Yes you're right, - I can see that now.  Definitely proof of the fact that a good photo is needed when modelling a particular pre-grouping GWR engine.

[Annie]

Morning GWR cheer up picture:  A Wolverhampton saddle tank locomotive '1501' class 0-6-0PT; -  No 1805, was built at the Stafford Road Works in 1881 and shown here circa 1890.  (I like Wolverhampton built engines.)

[Northroader]

Returning to the Swindon picture, and the loco with the belpaire firebox, the RCTS book says about forty of these boilers were made in 1900- 03, and used on rebuilds only. Spotting features are raised Belpaire firebox, parallel barrel with no dome and central safety valve, and old type smokebox, not drumhead. Engines involved 2-2-2, 2-4-0 Barnums, 4-2-2, 4-4-0 no.16, Badmintons, and Dukes. Now the loco looks too short for a leading bogie, and the frame looks like a double plate rather than sandwich. Six of the Queens had this treatment.

 

By the way, another bit of fun in the foreground, a sort of barrow, on the top at the left is a circular hearth burning coke, and to the right are bellows, get a good draught in the fire, then you popped rivets into the middle of the fire until red hot then passed on tongs to rivetter and mate for a bit of hot riveting, Dad started as a lad of 14, rivet heating. He would have gone on to be a plater, but WW1 got in the way.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Northroader

[Annie]

1 hour ago, Northroader said:

Returning to the Swindon picture, and the loco with the belpaire firebox, the RCTS book says about forty of these boilers were made in 1900- 03, and used on rebuilds only. Spotting features are raised Belpaire firebox, parallel barrel with no dome and central safety valve, and old type smokebox, not drumhead. Engines involved 2-2-2, 2-4-0 Barnums, 4-2-2, 4-4-0 no.16, Badmintons, and Dukes. Now the loco looks too short for a leading bogie, and the frame looks like a double plate rather than sandwich. Six of the Queens had this treatment.

My money was on one of the 'Queens' Mr Northroader.  Of course I much prefer the early 'Queens' with their Gooch influenced domeless boiler, but there you go. 

That's a tidy piece of research you've done to help unlock a part of this puzzle, Ta for that.

 

1 hour ago, Northroader said:

By the way, another bit of fun in the foreground, a sort of barrow, on the top at the left is a circular hearth burning coke, and to the right are bellows, get a good draught in the fire, then you popped rivets into the middle of the fire until red hot then passed on tongs to rivetter and mate for a bit of hot riveting,

I frowned at that little barrow for a good while before the penny dropped that it was an important piece of rivetter's kit.  Now I wonder who I can show that photo to because it would make a great item of workshop equipment if modelled in a 3D kind of way.

[Annie]

Playing trains engaging in serious testing on my old Cairnrigg to Balessie layout in TRS22.

 

[Edwardian]

12 hours ago, Annie said:

Playing trains engaging in serious testing on my old Cairnrigg to Balessie layout in TRS22.

 

 

Stainmore, surely!

 

Magnificent

[Annie]

3 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

Stainmore, surely!

 

Magnificent

Thanks James.  'Cairnrigg to Balessie' was a generic Scottish layout I built a couple of years ago so that my collection of mid-19th century 'North of the Border' locos and rolling stock had somewhere to call their own.  I was still learning how to use the layout building tools in Trainz back them so some things weren't done all that well.  I thought that with the release of the latest TRS22 version of Trainz that I'd return to my old layout and give it a wee bit of a tidy up as a way to find out what the new version can do.

Unfortunately my lovely old Stockton & Darlington Bouch 4-4-0's are orphans as I don't really have anything else much I can run with them.  I thought I'd get them out of my digital trainset box and use them as test engines and give them a run while I'm doing track repairs.  They are old Trainz models from TS2004, but despite that they run very sweetly in TRS22.

It was also an excuse to get my chauldron wagons out as well, though I had to make do with an N.E.R. 'birdcage' brake van as I don't have a S&DR one.........yet.

 

[Annie]

Another engine that I've taken across to TRS22 is this wonderful old Longridge 0-6-0.  On my Norfolk layout it works the mineral trains on the Grimwold branch and it's lots of fun to drive on the steam controls; - tender brakes only so I have to be really on my game to drive this old engine without bumping into things in a properly engine woman-like manner.

The Shrewsbury & Chester owned a Longridge locomotive, - a 2-4-0, - but that's about the only one I know of that's similar to my 0-6-0 Longridge.  https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/images/f/f6/Im1921EnV131-p069a.jpg

 

[Annie]

 

Now that's better.  Hundreds of days ago back in 2018 I purchased an engine shed model based on the engine sheds at Beamish from Paul of Paulz Trainz.  I thought it would be just the thing for the MPD at Cairnrigg and it would be certainly better than the very tired old engine shed model I was using from 'Ultimate Trainz' from waaaaay back at the end of last century.  Only when I went to look for the engine shed I couldn't find it.  Normally I'm obsessive about backing up my Trainz files, but for some reason I failed to do it this time.  After hunting back through backed up copies of TS2009 and TS2012 without any luck I resigned myself to searching through all the emails I'd ever received from Paul and just as I was about to give up and go to the kitchen to make a pot of tea I found the email that had the engine shed as an attachment.  (Alleluia! Alleluia!) 

Needless to say I immediately made a backup copy of it so I wouldn't have to go through all that again.

 

 

[Annie]

I'm continuing to work on tidying up 'Cairnrigg to Balessie'.  The S&DR Bouch 4-4-0 is still acting as test engine and last night just before end of play I was able to do a run through to Balessie goods yard without any derailments occuring.  TRS22 does not like the older version tunnel and bridge models I originally used on the layout with the tunnels in particular somehow managing to invisibly fold their attached track back under the tunnel entrances causing the Bouch 4-4-0 to end up half thrust through the tunnel floor.

I don't like doing tunnels at the best of times, but I found a new kitset of tunnel pieces I hadn't tried using before and after a bit of mucking about I was able to make a reasonable job of building up a replacement tunnel.

 

The sparrowcam view of the tunnel in wireframe mode.  The hole in the landscape disguising tunnel mouth+mountainside models aren't quite a perfect match for the tunnel kitset parts, but I think they'll do.

 

That split in the tunnel wall is a bit annoying, but if that ended up being the only fault I think I got off lightly.  I might be able to fix it with a little careful tweaking of the tunnel casing.

 

The Bouch 4-4-0 leaving Cairnrigg yard.  The signpost in the middle distance reads Cairnrigg 2 miles, - so perhaps I should think about renaming the station 'Cairnrigg Road'.

 

 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Annie
more to say

[Annie]

McDonnell NER Class '59'.  Another older model from my collection is brought out into the light.  I purchased this engine when i was still running Trainz TS2009 and that was a while ago.  Back then I was messing around with ideas for a NER based layout, but ended up getting distracted by the GCR and then the GER and all my NER engines and rolling stock were quietly packed away in my digital trainset box.

Now that I'm sorting out 'Cairnrigg to Balessie' I thought I'd use this layout as a home for some of my engines that don't get much of a look in anymore.  The way Trainz works is that the landscape and all the track, signals, buildings, scenery & etc is built up in what is called the 'Route Layer'; - and engines and rolling stock are then placed on the track using the 'Session Layer'.  By using two or three different 'Session Layers' I can make a home for my mid-19th century models and another one as a home for my NER models.  I've already got one for my North British engines and rolling stock.

The class '59' could do with a little texture polishing to make it look a little better and not so dull.  Basically exactly the same as I had to do with some of my old GER models when I moved them across to TRS19 from TS2012.

 

[Annie]

I've been hunting around down in the depths of my digital trainset box.

 

Both the BTP and the '1463' are by Paulz Trainz, but the BTP is an older model than the '1463'.  The '1463' was commissioned from Paul by a member of the creator group I belong to and his life long project is to build all of the old North Eastern Railway.  I think the '1463' might have had a further upgrade since I purchased my one and I know that the earlier Fletcher '901' 2-4-0 has recently been made as well.  BUT I have boring house repairs that need doing so I can't go buying anymore engines until they've been done and paid for.

As old as it is the BTP still a nice model and  I shouldn't have had it shut away for so long.  A NER '290' is available as well, but I'm not sure if I want one of those just yet.

I made the 'litho' NER coaches in the background well over two years ago now using a torn up Leeds Model Co litho sheet as the basis for my own textures.  I should really give them a bit of a tidy up as I spent quite a bit of time working on them.

 

 

 

 

And then there's 'Aerolite'.  I purchased this model and archived it away sometime in 2017, then it looks like I forgot about it.  I only found it again because I was looking for something else.  Whoever the builder was they certainly put a lot of effort into it.

 

Edited December 9, 2021 by Annie
I spoke LNER and offended NER engines.

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Annie said:

E5

 

Yer wot?

[Annie]

20 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Yer wot?

OOPS! - sorry, - NER '1463'  

[Compound2632]

36 minutes ago, Annie said:

NER '1463' 

 

Who designed them? The Locomotive Committee, one is usually told, chaired by Henry Tennant, the General Manager. Who else was on that committee? A couple of directors, and the recently-appointed Assistant Locomotive Superintendent, a 34-year-old who had taken up the post under Alexander McDonnell following a career on the LNWR, most recently as shed foreman at Chester. As the most senior man left in the Locomotive Department, shouldn't he be given the credit?

 

He can't really have been best pleased when his older brother was appointed Locomotive Superintendent over his head!

[Annie]

I am not an expert at all when it comes to the NER, but it seems that referring to the '1463' class as 'Tennants' was more of an ad hoc thing rather than anything official.  At heart the '1463' class owed more to Fletcher than to anyone else.

[Annie]

I'd archived most of my mid 19th century engines and rolling stock away along with my basic SP1 install of TS2019 due to being short on hard drive space.  Only now with a nice new Seagate Green 2Tb hard drive installed I could bring them all back again.

My purpose in doing this is so I can do any necessary fettling and adjustments to these models so they will run properly in TRS22.  Most of them were made back in TS2004 days and while by and large they've been fine in the latest versions of Trainz it's not something I want to take for granted.  The other thing of course is that my 'Cairnrigg to Balessie' layout was originally their home layout so now that I'm working on tidying it up I thought it would be nice to have my mid-19th century models back on the layout again.

 

And the Manning Wardle Cramptons are back!-  Seen here at Balessie engine shed.

Once I started digging around I discovered (rediscovered) that I have an insane number of Cramptons of various types, but the Manning Wardles are my favourite.  I've never been entirely certain which tenders these M-W Cramptons are supposed to have, but these are the ones I've always used with them.

 

 

And this is the perfect opportunity to play this video clip again.

 

 

 

[Annie]

 

Way back in 2018 I asked Paul of Paulz Trainz about the possibility of more Cramptons lurking in his back catalogue.  As a result of my enquiry I was able to obtain a very nice LC&DR Crampton and also ....... this.   I know nothing at all about this twin Crampton locomotive's history beyond it being some variety of experiment.  And before you ask the locomotives are named 'Castor' and 'Pollux'.

This is one of Paul's early models and it lacks the working outside Stephensons valve gear fitted to his later Manning Wardle/E.B. Wilson Cramptons.  Unfortunately due to a hard drive accident Paul lost a number of his models, but he was able to assemble enough surviving meshes to present me with a collection of bits.  With one thing and another I hadn't got around to sorting out 'Castor & Pollux' and getting them working, but finally this afternoon I got it done.

What is it like to drive you ask?  It's like some insane species of huge double Fairlie.  With those big driving wheels the exhaust beats are quite slow and leisurely even though it's moving along at a fair sort of clip.  I'm not really sure what I'm going to do with 'Castor & Pollux' yet.  Trying to drive it using the steam controls would definitely be a challenge though.