Annie's Virtual Pre-Grouping, Grouping and BR Layouts & Workbench

[Annie]

If nothing else my Hopewood Tramway project has given me an incentive to fix all the things I've been meaning to fix for ages.

Tidewater Farm has been a half completed mess for months so it was good to finally do something about it.  And yes that is a backscene behind the farm buildings.  On the larger layout there is a considerable vista of open landscape behind Tidewater Farm, but on this smaller version there's just the Terrible Nothing where the layout boards end so a backscene was necessary to create an illusion of the landscape disappearing away into the distance.

 

Edited January 3, 2021 by Annie
fumble brain

[Annie]

Book Corner:

 

Getting lost in a good book is something to be recommended at present.  Might I recommend to you the wonderful website British Transport Treasures.   http://www.britishtransporttreasures.com/   They have a good many PDF facimilies of long out of print publications which would be of great interest to the pre-grouping railway enthusiast and I have spent many a happy hour searching their catalogue.

 

A selection:

 

 

 

[Annie]

Various snaps taken while doing running tests on my Hopewood Tramway project.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Annie]

Something a little different.  A member of the creator group had just built up an extension to a layout he'd been building and he'd just realised that some of the gradients were Lickey Bank award qualifiers.  So he asked if group members who knew how to drive via the advanced steam controls could have at them.  The specified load was eight bogie coaches and the locomotive was to be a suitable passenger class that was up to the job.  Just as a by the by the layout is based on one I built up ages ago, - 'Cairnrigg to Balessie', - but it has been so profoundly changed about I can barely recognise it.

 

Eight coaches 250 tons.  I seriously had my doubts about this.

 

 

And just a bit further on from where I took this snap I stalled.  The FR class 120 was steaming for Britain, but that gradient had everything bad going for it and it didn't really have a chance.  The only way I could climb the gradient was to ignore the station stop at the bottom of the hill and take a rush at it and then it was a bit of a fluke.

 

 

So after reporting in about how bad the gradient was I decided to try an engine that was well up to the task.

 

 

The Baltic tank didn't really have to try that hard to climb the gradient which is about what I expected.  I don't often get a chance to take my Furness Baltic tanks out of my digital trainset box so it was a nice bit of fun to give them a run.

 

 

Even if this layout gets an update with tamed gradients I'm going to keep this version because I've found it to be a great test track to help me to set up engine specs for my favourite engines so they run properly under the advanced steam controls.

 

Only 95 tons this time, - which is a perfectly sensible load for my SER Crampton.  Only 90 psi boiler pressure and no superheat makes it a tricky one to set up properly.

 

 

 

 

 

[NeilHB]

Lovely photos Annie - it's great to see some Furness stock in its proper colours. The Baltic tanks really are big brutes, I'd love to have one but I fear it would frighten my poor little tram locos! 

 

 

[Annie]

6 hours ago, NeilHB said:

Lovely photos Annie - it's great to see some Furness stock in its proper colours. The Baltic tanks really are big brutes, I'd love to have one but I fear it would frighten my poor little tram locos! 

 

 

Thanks Neil.  And that would be one of the reasons why I very rarely run my Furness Baltics, - they are simply too big for my layouts.

After completing a commision Cameron Scott from Darlington Works made the Furness Baltics available as freeware in both Furness and LMS livery.  Like many I suppose I downloaded them without any clear idea of what I was going to do with them.

The FR bogie coaches are reskins by Rob Dee on some of Ken Green's LNWR coaches.  The FR class 120 'Seagull' is also a reskin by Rob Dee.

[Jake The Rat]

'Cairnrigg to Balessie' was one of the first layouts I tried to modify back in my TS09 days. I remember to rebuild the yard at Cairnrigg with a turntable, a roundhouse & lots of sidings & setting up all available Caledonian Railway locos & stock. I like Caley blue, especially the Cardeans & the 123 single driver loco.

Then I added a few baseboards & a coal mine. I also put a dinosaur into the lake in the middle of the layout as a fake monster.   That was all lost after a reinstall. Later, with TS12, I installed the TS12-version & started to do basically the same once more, but didn't get very far, & I didn't add any baseboards. At that time I didn't know how to operate a turntable by driver commands, so I built a wye to turn around locos & head back to Balessie.

 

 

 

 

I suppose, 'Cairnrigg-Rostyre-Balessie' by driver_col is the new much altered version of your layout? Too bad it's for TS19, if it was for TS12 I would download it immediately.

 

[Annie]

'Cairnrigg to Balessie' started out as a test track where i'd try out various ideas and gradually grew into becoming a layout.  At first it was where I used to keep all my mid-19th century engines and rolling stock.  Encouraged by the members of the creator group I put together a version of 'Cairnrigg to Balessie' in my brand new copy of TS2019 for upload to the DLS.  I had to change out the early mid-19th century signals and payware items like the engine sheds at Cairnrigg and Balessie for assets that were on the DLS, but otherwise it was identical to my 'test track' that became a layout.  This was the very first time I'd uploaded a layout to the DLS and I was nervous about it.  I was sure everyone would think it was silly and laugh at me.

But they didn't and some Trainz folk even asked me if I'd upload my original TS2012 version as they didn't have TS2019.  So I sorted out a DLS friendly version and uploaded that as well. So far the TS2012 version has been uploaded 1244 times to the TS2019 version's 762 times so that certainly worked out well.

 

It is a very simple little layout and in some ways a bit naive, but perhaps that's what appealed to those who downloaded it.  There are some things about it that have roots in its test track origins such as the many long sidings at Cairnrigg and the passing loops in the deep cutting before the tunnel.  One thing I had done my best to represent though was that the line was meant to be running through a lonely and largely empty landscape that was supposed to be somewhere in Scotland.

About a year ago driver_col,  - who is a member of the creator group I belong to, - 'discovered' my little layout and asked me if he could do a modified version I told him, 'Go for it', and that's how 'Cairnrigg-Rostyre-Balessie' and 'Logan Beck' came into being.  He's a far better layout builder than I am with the energy to create huge complex layouts in seemingly no time at all.  BUT he struggled a bit with 'Cairnrigg to Balessie' as he didn't quite understand the lonely countryside thing I had going.  He asked me why the station at Cairnrigg was there at all apparently in the middle of nowhere.  I told him, 'See that road going over the rise at the edge of the layout, - the small town of Cairnrigg is about a half a mile along that road.  The three houses beside the station belong to the railway company and are staff houses.'  I don't think he really understood my Zen-like concepts of 'no town' when it comes to layout building.

 

I don't completely agree with the things he's done with my little 'test track', but I don't mind too much.  I should perhaps return to the original TS2012 version and give it a little tidy up.  There are some much better stone viaduct models available now as an example which I think would be an improvement.  Otherwise I'd do my best to keep any changes to a minimum.

 

 

A selection of old snaps from before I uploaded the layout to the DLS.

 

 

 

 

[Jake The Rat]

4 hours ago, Annie said:

This was the very first time I'd uploaded a layout to the DLS and I was nervous about it.  I was sure everyone would think it was silly and laugh at me.

This reminds me that I haven't uploaded anything yet.

 

Quote

But they didn't ...

... & they were right. 'Cairnrigg to Balessie' doesn't look like an enhanced test track to me, but like a bona fide layout.

 

Quote

It is a very simple little layout and in some ways a bit naive, but perhaps that's what appealed to those who downloaded it.

At least in my case that's exactly so.

 

Quote

About a year ago driver_col,  - who is a member of the creator group I belong to, - 'discovered' my little layout and asked me if he could do a modified version I told him, 'Go for it', and that's how 'Cairnrigg-Rostyre-Balessie' and 'Logan Beck' came into being.

The creator of 'Valleyfields' & its many variations... I guess, that means something.

 

Quote

He asked me why the station at Cairnrigg was there at all apparently in the middle of nowhere.  I told him, 'See that road going over the rise at the edge of the layout, - the small town of Cairnrigg is about a half a mile along that road.  The three houses beside the station belong to the railway company and are staff houses.'  I don't think he really understood my Zen-like concepts of 'no town' when it comes to layout building.

I must admit, building a small town in the direct vicinity of Cairnrigg station would be one of the first things to do for me; something like 'Rivendell' in the corner of 'Rhye on Sea', only a bit more Scottish; & of course I would use your 'station road' buildings....

One more thing I would change is to move the turntable at Balessie to the other side of the station, so a loco coming from Cairnrigg can get there easily. Driving zig-zag is something AI drivers are not very good at.

 

The more I like a layout, the more I want to modify it. If I have no ideas at all what to change that means I consider it useless.

 

Quote

I should perhaps return to the original TS2012 version and give it a little tidy up.  There are some much better stone viaduct models available now as an example which I think would be an improvement.  Otherwise I'd do my best to keep any changes to a minimum.

[Annie]

On 06/01/2021 at 18:26, Jake The Rat said:

One more thing I would change is to move the turntable at Balessie to the other side of the station, so a loco coming from Cairnrigg can get there easily. Driving zig-zag is something AI drivers are not very good at.

The positioning of the turntable was constrained by the shape of the landscape at Balessie.  Yes it's not always convenient, but that's one of the decisions any railway surveyor/engineer would have to make.  I like to leave the lie of the land alone apart from basic levelling so that the landscape dictates how the railway will pass through it rather than the other way around. The other factor in the way I build up MPDs is that I don't use AI when I want to turn a locomotive as I always drive such movements myself.

 

On 06/01/2021 at 18:26, Jake The Rat said:

... & they were right. 'Cairnrigg to Balessie' doesn't look like an enhanced test track to me, but like a bona fide layout.

 

Thanks Jake.  

 

I'm doing other things at the moment so.........

 

[Jake The Rat]

On 07/01/2021 at 23:04, Annie said:

The positioning of the turntable was constrained by the shape of the landscape at Balessie.  Yes it's not always convenient, but that's one of the decisions any railway surveyor/engineer would have to make.  I like to leave the lie of the land alone apart from basic levelling so that the landscape dictates how the railway will pass through it rather than the other way around. 

I can understand that, but my approach is different. When I am working on a layout, the landscape is not given by nature, but created either by myself or the author of the route I am editing. That's why I feel absolutely no inhibition to do any amount of terraforming I find useful. I don't mind if there's a hill in the way - it's only a virtual hill, & I've got tons of virtual dynamite.

 

Quote

The other factor in the way I build up MPDs is that I don't use AI when I want to turn a locomotive as I always drive such movements myself.

It's always my goal to create a session that runs on its own for at least half an hour before the trains get entangled. & I want my trains to do some serious traffic & not just run around aimlessly on autopilot. (That's what they are doing right now on my Canadian Pacific layout, but that's only an intermediate step.) I might drive a train myself, but that has to be optional. If I find that this cannot be done, I consider my project a failure. Quite often I change something in the route to suit the session, not the other way round.

 

[Annie]

9 hours ago, Jake The Rat said:

I can understand that, but my approach is different. When I am working on a layout, the landscape is not given by nature, but created either by myself or the author of the route I am editing. That's why I feel absolutely no inhibition to do any amount of terraforming I find useful. I don't mind if there's a hill in the way - it's only a virtual hill, & I've got tons of virtual dynamite.

It would be awful if layout builders all used the same approach and formula when building up their layouts.  I have my way of doing it and you have yours Jake and long may that continue.

 

9 hours ago, Jake The Rat said:

It's always my goal to create a session that runs on its own for at least half an hour before the trains get entangled. & I want my trains to do some serious traffic & not just run around aimlessly on autopilot. (That's what they are doing right now on my Canadian Pacific layout, but that's only an intermediate step.) I might drive a train myself, but that has to be optional. If I find that this cannot be done, I consider my project a failure. Quite often I change something in the route to suit the session, not the other way round.

I will use AI to send a train to a destination, but once it's there I take over the shunting & etc since I really enjoy doing shunting and trip working.  I have some basic skill with setting up AI scheduling so I'm always impressed when I see a large layout with many trains running that are all under AI control.  The other thing is that I often like to drive using the 'advanced' steam controls rather than DCC so that makes a difference to how I set things up as well.

[Annie]

A brand spanking new model of De Glehn compound 'La France' made for Trainz TRS19.  This new model is the work of Edward Heaps who is one of the most skilled digital modellers presently making models for the Trainz railway simulator.

Isn't it beautiful? - I could stare at it all day.  The model is also available in the black livery carried by the first GWR De Glen compounds on arrival from France as well as the pre-1906 GWR livery.  Ed Heaps said he wasn't sure if the De Glen compounds wore the pre-1906 livery as he couldn't find any references for it, but decided that it was too lovely a livery not to apply it to these models.

 

[Compound2632]

On 02/01/2021 at 00:58, Annie said:

White overalls seemed to have been very much a pre-grouping era thing on most of the old railways.  I suppose the idea was it made footplate crew more visible while working around their engine to help prevent accidents.  In most of the old photos I've seen though 'white' with regard to overalls was a distant concept.  By comparison the driver of No.2020's overalls are positively pristine. 

 

White overalls show the dirt so the missus knows how long to boil them for.

[Jake The Rat]

On 18/01/2021 at 02:04, Annie said:

A brand spanking new model of De Glehn compound 'La France' made for Trainz TRS19.  This new model is the work of Edward Heaps who is one of the most skilled digital modellers presently making models for the Trainz railway simulator.

Isn't it beautiful? - I could stare at it all day. 

 

Edward Heaps is a genius, & his de Glehn is a beauty.   Too bad it's not for TS12 & hence not for me.

My avatar is also one of his creations: MSWJR No.16 'Galloping Alice'.

 

Not much going on with British railway here, as I have been exploring Canadian & US American railroads in the last few days. ('Railway is the British term, 'railroad' the American term, isn't it?) Maybe this has to do with the start of the NHL a week ago. When I watch a game like Vancouver vs Calgary, I feel somehow inclined to play with some Canadian Pacific trains in the intermissions.   (Calgary is their headquarter & Vancouver their western terminus.)

This loco was built in Montreal & is genuine Canadian, but it has a British context.

 

Quote

The Royal Hudsons are a group of semi-streamlined 4-6-4 "Hudson" type steam locomotives owned by the Canadian Pacific Railway (CPR) and built by Montreal Locomotive Works (MLW). The engines was built in 1937. In 1939, King George VI allowed the CPR to use the term after Royal Hudson number 2850 transported the royal train across Canada with no need of replacement. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Hudson )

 

My American excursions won't last forever, & I'm planning to go back to one of my British projects, maybe to my much altered & enlarged 'British Midlands' layout, maybe to 'Rhye on Sea', or maybe...

 

[Annie]

2 hours ago, Jake The Rat said:

Edward Heaps is a genius, & his de Glehn is a beauty.   Too bad it's not for TS12 & hence not for me.

My avatar is also one of his creations: MSWJR No.16 'Galloping Alice'.

The main reason why many builders stopped building engines for TS2012 is due to software upgrades to Blender and the old Trainz exporter software no longer working with the new versions of Blender.  This has forced several creators for Trainz into using the new PBR materials and building engines (and other models) only for the newest versions of Trainz.  Ed Heaps is a rarity in that he has mastered the new methods and materials very well, but there are more than a few that haven't and their creations look like they are coated in thick shiny jelly.

Other creators who can't manage the learning curve have simply decided to give up and stop making new assets.  Some of those who still have the older software, - which of course is no longer available, - are still working in TS2012, but overall the situation isn't that good for the future of Trainz; - especially since the latest SP2 'upgrade' for TS2019 has broken lots of things and has done a great job of outraging many creators who have suddenly discovered that most of their assets no longer work due to broken scripting.  N3V has said that they will need to fix them and the asset creators in response have given N3V a two fingered salute.

[AdamsRadial]

I've not been such a frequent browser of the N3V forums these past few months because I had detected a move afoot by N3V to try and free themselves of the burden of dragging along a lot of old content that relied on the older Jet engine, and was (they felt) holding them back from moving onto better things. I had already decided back then that even if I would be able to afford a better PC once I got my state pension, I wasn't going to follow along that better-and-better path.

 

Simulations rely on a degree of immersiveness that can sometimes be hampered by increasing the degree of realism, contrary to what many people expect. It's similar to the "uncanny valley" phenomenon noted in virtual worlds, where characters that are too detailed tend to make the viewer feel a vague unease without actually being able to say why.

 

I've seen a similar drift in actual modelling too, where more and more modellers seem to be working to create things that look well in close-up photographs, because that's the growing trend. But the detail you can see in the photograph is going to be invisible when you're standing four feet away from it at an exhibition. 

[Annie]

27 minutes ago, AdamsRadial said:

Simulations rely on a degree of immersiveness that can sometimes be hampered by increasing the degree of realism, contrary to what many people expect. It's similar to the "uncanny valley" phenomenon noted in virtual worlds, where characters that are too detailed tend to make the viewer feel a vague unease without actually being able to say why.

Exactly that Adam.  When I run TS2019 it's the older SP! version with nearly all the high tech enhancements turned off because I'm not at all interested in buying into the ongoing trend towards hyper-realism.  The lighting in TS2019 is still a nightmare though with its 'sun just gone supernova' hash brightness which is not at all easy to tame.   I have been running TANE SP3 as well, - not the SP4 'update' which also breaks lots of things just the same as the new TS2019 'update', - and I've been getting it to look near to the same as TS2012, but with better much better and smoother running so I will most probably park myself there and not worry about the present mess that N3V is making for itself.

A short while ago I got into a discussion with Tony Hillam from N3V about how awful their new updated 'Duchess' model made with the worst shiny jelly PBR textures I've ever seen looked.  I then miffed him a bit by showing this picture of a 'Duchess' made in TS2009 that more than a few of us Uk Trainz types think looks much better despite its age.

 

 

 

[AdamsRadial]

I hope he's recovered from the handbagging

 

I'm in the middle of revitalising my old 32-bit PC on which I did the early MSTS work to run TC3, I had got it running TS2009 with some of C J Freezer's track plans but it was grinding to a halt if there were more than two locos in close proximity. I can't do anything about the RAM or CPU, but I hope sticking an SSD in it will speed things up a tad. Hopefully the East Kent Light Railway will come back to life (the high-spec laptop on which I was working fried the graphics card due to an ingestion of cat-fluff and put paid to my digital work for a while).

 

I presume a Light Railway that never got grouped is permissible in the pre-grouping forum?

 

[Jake The Rat]

1 hour ago, AdamsRadial said:

(the high-spec laptop on which I was working fried the graphics card due to an ingestion of cat-fluff and put paid to my digital work for a while)

That's the first case of a computer suffering from cat hair allergy I've heard of.

 

(Many years ago my mother went to the doctor with a persistent cough & told him: "If it's a cat hair allergy, I don't want to know. My husband & my son would rather kick me out than the cats." & she was right. )

[Annie]

7 hours ago, AdamsRadial said:

I presume a Light Railway that never got grouped is permissible in the pre-grouping forum?

Indeed it most certainly is Adam.  My own effort has been moribund for far too long though.

 

 

7 hours ago, AdamsRadial said:

 

I'm in the middle of revitalising my old 32-bit PC on which I did the early MSTS work to run TC3, I had got it running TS2009 with some of C J Freezer's track plans but it was grinding to a halt if there were more than two locos in close proximity. I can't do anything about the RAM or CPU, but I hope sticking an SSD in it will speed things up a tad. Hopefully the East Kent Light Railway will come back to life (the high-spec laptop on which I was working fried the graphics card due to an ingestion of cat-fluff and put paid to my digital work for a while).

Some laptops are seriously poorly designed and not only allow all manner of fluff into their internals, but are also prize pigs to take apart to remove the aforementioned fluff.  Others have such poor venting they will overheat to the point of failure even if they are squeaky clean inside.  A few years ago now I purchased a certain model of Hewlett Packard laptop as a gift for my son thinking I was giving him a good and reliable laptop with a good reputation; - only it happened to be a model (unknown to me) that was notorious for overheating and it died a swift death.  Embarrassing to say the least and pretty darn annoying as well.

 

7 hours ago, AdamsRadial said:

I hope he's recovered from the handbagging

It wouldn't have been fair to give a man with such poor eyesight a walloping.  Or at least I can only assume that he's near legally blind not to have seem how bad that PBR texturing job on the 'Duchess' was.

[rocor]

On 19/01/2021 at 23:31, AdamsRadial said:

I've not been such a frequent browser of the N3V forums these past few months because I had detected a move afoot by N3V to try and free themselves of the burden of dragging along a lot of old content that relied on the older Jet engine, and was (they felt) holding them back from moving onto better things. I had already decided back then that even if I would be able to afford a better PC once I got my state pension, I wasn't going to follow along that better-and-better path.

 

Simulations rely on a degree of immersiveness that can sometimes be hampered by increasing the degree of realism, contrary to what many people expect. It's similar to the "uncanny valley" phenomenon noted in virtual worlds, where characters that are too detailed tend to make the viewer feel a vague unease without actually being able to say why.

 

I've seen a similar drift in actual modelling too, where more and more modellers seem to be working to create things that look well in close-up photographs, because that's the growing trend. But the detail you can see in the photograph is going to be invisible when you're standing four feet away from it at an exhibition. 

 

 

At least in actual modelling, if the builder wants to take a super detailing approach, he will not have attendees at exhibitions feeling a sense of unease when viewing his models.

[simonmcp]

3 hours ago, rocor said:

 

 

At least in actual modelling, if the builder wants to take a super detailing approach, he will not have attendees at exhibitions feeling a sense of unease when viewing his models.

I realize mentioning someone who model's post 1920's is a little 'infradig' on this thread and especially as he models foreign railways as well but here goes. I am not sure if any one is familiar with Emmanuel Nouaillier, (link here:-     ) but he does extremely finely detailed buildings. They look superb in small groups but in my humble opinion I think they don't work when incorporated into a larger layout. Being an artist perhaps I prefer the impressionist approach.

[Annie]

3 hours ago, simonmcp said:

I realize mentioning someone who model's post 1920's is a little 'infradig' on this thread and especially as he models foreign railways as well but here goes. I am not sure if any one is familiar with Emmanuel Nouaillier, (link here:-     ) but he does extremely finely detailed buildings. They look superb in small groups but in my humble opinion I think they don't work when incorporated into a larger layout. Being an artist perhaps I prefer the impressionist approach.

Please don't take snaps of the real thing and say they are models.  

 

Seriously though that kind of modelling is always a delight to see, but I must agree with you that the same approach doesn't work so well in a much larger layout.  With digital railway modelling there's certain creators who can do much the same kind of thing with small diorama type models especially with modelling small industrial yards in an urban environment, but trying to do the same level of detail on a much bigger layout simply ends up with it all getting lost in the background (apart from overheating graphics cards and CPUs trying to render it all).

 

I tend to take the impressionist approach as well and let my imagination fill in the details.  The screenshot I posted earlier of a scene on my representation of the K&ESR is typical of my approach to digital railway modelling.

[Jake The Rat]

5 hours ago, Annie said:

... but trying to do the same level of detail on a much bigger layout simply ends up with it all getting lost in the background (apart from overheating graphics cards and CPUs trying to render it all).

Not only gets it lost in the background, it also takes lots of time to put it there; time I'd prefer to spend on something else. Of course there are not only trains , rails, buildings & trees in my layouts (at least there are also cars & cats & sometimes even humans ) , but I would never put so much effort into the details to achieve something  comparable to the picture above.