Annie's Virtual Pre-Grouping, Grouping and BR Layouts & Workbench

[Annie]

16 minutes ago, Adam88 said:

I have enough digital downloads to last a lifetime but this one doesn't look too bad to me.

 

https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/100231046

 

Adam

That is a much better scan than the one I've got which is fairly carelessly done on some of the plates.  Thanks for that Adam.

Whatever I find later on in the way of information about the rebuilt tank loco Crew Types it has to be of use to have proper drawings of the original locomotive.

[AdamsRadial]

11 hours ago, Annie said:

but John Marshall's book on the line has one on the cover as plain as day.

"I know I've got that book somewhere", Big Jim was thinking to himself,

"Maybe down in Mexico, or tucked behind another on the shelf..."

 

I'm not sure if that's the book I have, or else I have a different edition. The cover shows a then and now picture of a tunnel portal, not a DX tank, but thanks for putting my mind at rest about the converted tanks being on the CHPR, I was getting worried I had totally lost it due to cabin-fever here.

Edited February 8, 2021 by AdamsRadial

[Annie]

 

This one?  I ordered it a couple of days ago from a Uk bookseller, but I don't expect to see it for at least a month.

[AdamsRadial]

Yes, that's the one. I'd better go buy myself that other one you posted the picture from. Unless it's just a different edition?

 

In my old age I find it harder and harder to save mental pictures of where I have repositioned things to. I had a clear image of the cover of the book, and a clear image of where it last was before I moved it, but after that, nothing. I can see me ending up as a moment by moment diarist recording every single alteration I make around the place.

[Adam88]

 

Have you seen this yet elsewhere on RMWeb?  It looks interesting.

 

[Annie]

Steve Flanders  who made most of the Broad Gauge models I use is presently building a digital model of the Liverpool Overhead Railway for Trainz.  It's been a major project with him having to make a huge number of custom 3D models.

 

http://www.jatws.org/ing4trainz/liverpool_overhead.htm

[Annie]

I'm dragging my sleepy self around with working on this project at the moment. 

Long ago in the early years of Trainz a content creator who was very new to making 3D locomotive models made a digital model of a GWR 'Metro' tank engine.  It was never a very good model, but what struck me most of all about it was that it looked a lot like a tinplate  'O' gauge engine from the 1920s.

Adding a keyhole and a clockwork sound file as well removing its smoke files has helped things along, but there's still a bit to do yet.   I might consider doing a pot boiler live steam version with a drip feed meths tank, but not yet because I want to get the 'clocker' done first.  (Makes note, - more aged GWR 6 wheelers needed.)

 

 

Edited February 13, 2021 by Annie
fumble brain

[Northroader]

Don’t you go spilling Meths on my nice carpet!

[DonB]

1 hour ago, Northroader said:

Don’t you go spilling Meths on my nice carpet!

 

A variation on burning bridges. ?

[Annie]

So far my big Baltic tank that's been my live steam test bed hasn't set fire to my virtual model railway room by dribbling virtual meths about so I think I'll be able to safely sort the Metro tank out Ok.  

 

I'm getting somewhere with the 'Metro' tank engine.  The engine's original builder had left off the cab handrails and the axleboxes for the leading wheels, - though fortunately he did model the springs for the leading wheels.  Putting on my brave girl Tee shirt I decided to have a go at making the missing handrails using 3D software.  I've never done anything like this before, but since all I had to do was make a metal bar about 3 ft long I thought I shouldn't have too much difficulty.  In the end it took me ages due to me making thousands of mistakes, - but I did finally end up with a metal bar 3 ft long and 1 & 5/8ths in diameter.  On reflection that's a bit thick for the handrails, but I think they'll do.  Creating attachment points and fitting them was a quick job, but then that's something I've done a good many times before.

Next will be making the missing axleboxes, but I'm going to keep those really simple since they're supposed to be made out of pressed tinplate.

 

 

[Annie]

And it's done.  The axleboxes for the front carrying wheels are plain cuboids without any detailing that I made in Sketchup 8 (Google's free 3D modelling software before they sold it some corporate lot and it became very expensive payware).  Sketchup 8 has a plugin exporter for Trainz which works fine for the kinds of simple things I would want to do.

There's a very noticeable gap between the axleboxes and the front carrying wheels which are innocent of axle stub ends.  This would be a bad thing on a scale model, but it's fine on a tinplate engine.  All in all though it's been a fun experiment and I made my very first simple 3D models as well.

 

 

Edited February 13, 2021 by Annie
added a picture

[Annie]

 

[Annie]

Some snaps I took recently on Middle Vales, - my early BR period West Coast Scottish borders layout with the completely mythical location.  It took me a fairly steady 4 months work to rebuild Middle Vales from an older legacy layout downloaded from the DLS and I really should operate it more often than I do.

I'd done some work on an older ex-LNER A8 Pacific tank engine in my collection including lettering and numbering it with a proper Gill Sans font so I wanted to give it a run.  I doubt that an A8 would have ever strayed over to the West Coast, but I don't have a properly functional Nor'east layout that I'd want to take any snaps of.

 

 

 

 

 

[Annie]

Ages ago a Trainz enthusiast named Peter Flindley started a project to model the entire GCR during the BR steam era.  He's now up to version 15 (V15) in TS2019/TRS19 with some still to go.  He's an elderly gentleman and he's slowing down a bit now, but it would be very nice if he did make it to V16 and finish it all.

Older legacy models/assets are noticeable here and there amongst the more recent scenic details on this huge project, but that's just because it was started so long ago.

 

A1/A3 Pacific 'Diamond Jubilee'

 

 

 

Edited February 17, 2021 by Annie
more to say

[Annie]

Another snap from GCR V15.  The New Hucknall Nottingham wagons have a terrible case of Arial Fonts Disease.

 

[Skinnylinny]

The 2-4-0t looks lovely, Annie - I can see what you mean about having a distinctly tinplate feel to the model! The axleboxes and handrail work very nicely to aid that impression.

I'll admit to not knowing much about Trainz and attachment points, but I didn't realise SketchUp had a Trainz model exporter. Can this only export shapes for adding to rolling stock, or could it, theoretically, produce buildings and scenery items? A nice chunky cast base to stop your signals toppling over, perhaps?

[Annie]

I had to add bits to the loco's body mesh using attachment points Linny since I couldn't edit the body mesh itself.  It's basically about setting a point on the body mesh using an IM editor (x-y-z) and editing the model's config file to tell the Trainz game engine what's supposed to go there.  

The Metro is a really fun little engine and while it was a bit of a faff to set it all up it was definitely worth it.

 

I've seen some really nice assets made for Trainz using Sketchup, but the only problem with it is that the poly count can be really high as compared with other 3D software.  There's been some fierce arguments over Sketchup in the Trainz community with the general view being to completely avoid it and use something else instead.  I've done some small things with it keeping it all very simple so the poly load isn't too high.  RubyTMIX is the name of the plugin exporter for Trainz and it's easy to use (Well it must be if I can use it).

 

Everyone tells me to learn to use Blender, but with my slowed down foggy brain that's going to be a non-starter.  Intelligent people with all their wits about them have failed to understand Blender, - so what chance do i have?  Apart from TinkerCad for Kids Sketchup 8 is the only 3D modelling software I've been able to use successfully and then only after lots of frowning.

 

I like your suggestion for cast signal bases Linny.  That would really help to give my virtual 'O' gauge train set the right look.  Things like building and scenery items are very possible and I might have some further experiments along those lines to see what I can create.

 

A fairly basic coal bunker from the Sketchup library that I reskinned and exported into Trainz.

 

[Annie]

The default state for environmental lighting in TS2019/TRS19 is 'the sun has just gone supernova' which looks plain awful.  There is a settings menu where lighting can be properly adjusted, but it's not easy to do and N3V seems to think that their customers will be happy enough to blunder around with the adjustment interface until it all magically comes right.

The problem is that out of the box the blue levels are far too high and they need cutting back relative to the red and green levels.  This is what I've done with the latest GCR V15 test session and I think I'm finally getting somewhere.

 

 

[AdamsRadial]

12 hours ago, Annie said:

There's been some fierce arguments over Sketchup in the Trainz community with the general view being to completely avoid it and use something else instead.

There are similar attitudes to Sketchup in SecondLife , again with the constant chorus to stop trying to use Sketchup and switch to Blender instead. As with Trainz, the complaints are usually about the triangle counts. As with Trainz, however, there are also plenty of objects created with Blender that have horrendous triangle counts. The issue isn't with the tool, it's with the creators.

 

One thing that the Blenderazzi seem to miss is that Blender has an interface that makes it feel like you are peering into the workspace through quite small windows, and the dark theme doesn't help; whereas Sketchup (and the default SecondLife in-world build methods) are more like working in real life, where you can walk around your work and move towards it and away from it, and in the daylight. My personal preference is for the wide-open fields style of working in 3D, and though I can use Blender if I must, I prefer not to.

 

Ruby Tmix does a fair job of slimming down the export, but it does pay to be aware of the odd things about Sketchup that often result in more triangles than are necessary.

[Annie]

6 hours ago, AdamsRadial said:

One thing that the Blenderazzi seem to miss is that Blender has an interface that makes it feel like you are peering into the workspace through quite small windows, and the dark theme doesn't help; whereas Sketchup (and the default SecondLife in-world build methods) are more like working in real life, where you can walk around your work and move towards it and away from it, and in the daylight. My personal preference is for the wide-open fields style of working in 3D, and though I can use Blender if I must, I prefer not to.

Bforartists is a Blender compatible 3D modelling tool that's creating a lot of interest on the Trainz forums.  Some very clever folk devised a much more user friendly interface for Blender that makes it a lot more easy proposition to learn to use.

 

3DCrafter  is another 3D modelling tool that I wanted to try out.  Apparently it does have a .im exporter for Trainz.  It's difficult to get an opinion about it on the Trainz forum since it's so dominated by the Blenderazzi (good word that), but some Trainz creators have used it.

 

As for Sketchup I can't believe the yearly licencing fees Trimble are asking for it.  The old Google Sketchup 8 version still works fine, but there's absolutely no support for it and all the 3D model libraries for it vanished back in 2015.

 

I do have an ancient copy of GMax on my archive hard drive, but I've only ever used it to open old 3D files and I've never tried to do any modelling with it.

[Skinnylinny]

SketchUp (at least the old, free version!) definitely has a soft spot in my heart - it's where I first started 3D modelling all those years ago. I still catch myself nipping into it occasionally for laser-cutting work. I've also seen some very impressive models made in TinkerCAD - see here for example:

One of the reasons the polygon count can be so high in SketchUp is that it draws "circles" as 20-sided polygons, regardless of size. This tends to be too few sides for large things like loco boilers, and too many for handrails (which could probably get away with being 8 or 10 if one isn't looking too closely!). There is a way to change this - press CTRL + + to increase the number of sides, and CTRL + - to decrease, while drawing the shape.

As for horrendous polygon counts, I've had a few people ask if I could turn my Fusion 360 CAD-ed B1 (still in progress) into something for Train Simulator or Trainz. Having barely started on the tender, and with a fair amount of detail still to be done on the loco, it's rapidly nearing the half-a-million triangles point when exported! There are a lot of features which I've drawn for 3D printing which I wouldn't have done for simulation software, though - Trainz doesn't require there to be holes in the boiler for the handrail knobs to fit into, for example. 

The concept of a more user-friendly interface for Blender is very interesting - I have tried a few times to learn Blender in the past, and I've had absolutely no joy - as described by AdamsRadial, it just feels like it's obscuring what you're working on, which is very offputting. The learning curve felt more like a learning greased vertical steel wall!

[Annie]

1 hour ago, Skinnylinny said:

I've also seen some very impressive models made in TinkerCAD - see here for example:

Wow! Suddenly I'm thinking about TinkerCAD in a whole new light.

 

1 hour ago, Skinnylinny said:

One of the reasons the polygon count can be so high in SketchUp is that it draws "circles" as 20-sided polygons, regardless of size. This tends to be too few sides for large things like loco boilers, and too many for handrails (which could probably get away with being 8 or 10 if one isn't looking too closely!). There is a way to change this - press CTRL + + to increase the number of sides, and CTRL + - to decrease, while drawing the shape.

Well that's worth knowing Linny.  The Sketchup nay-sayers tend to chant a lot about polygons, but would never say why that was so.

 

1 hour ago, Skinnylinny said:

As for horrendous polygon counts, I've had a few people ask if I could turn my Fusion 360 CAD-ed B1 (still in progress) into something for Train Simulator or Trainz. Having barely started on the tender, and with a fair amount of detail still to be done on the loco, it's rapidly nearing the half-a-million triangles point when exported! There are a lot of features which I've drawn for 3D printing which I wouldn't have done for simulation software, though - Trainz doesn't require there to be holes in the boiler for the handrail knobs to fit into, for example. 

Whenever I've commissioned virtual models for Trainz I will usually get a PM from a RMWeb forum member or two asking if the meshes can be used for 3D printing.  When I asked the skilled 3D virtual locomotive builders at the creator group I belong to about this what they told me boiled down to the mesh design being entirely different for 3D printing.

 

1 hour ago, Skinnylinny said:

The concept of a more user-friendly interface for Blender is very interesting - I have tried a few times to learn Blender in the past, and I've had absolutely no joy - as described by AdamsRadial, it just feels like it's obscuring what you're working on, which is very offputting. The learning curve felt more like a learning greased vertical steel wall!

My daughter tried to teach me the basics of Blender, but despite her computer science background it wasn't long before she was having trouble.  One can only wonder if Blender's creators had a secret dislike for 3D modellers, - or else they were just plain crap at designing software.

[Compound2632]

On 08/02/2021 at 10:14, Annie said:

'No.3049 [...] posed in this marvelous study on the extremely steep 1 in 14 Hopton incline 

 

Posed on 1:14? I'm willing to bet the photographer wasn't invited back.

 

(Catching up on my reading - sorry I'm a bit behind here.)

[MikeOxon]

Like Compound 2632, I'm also catching up on my reading. 

 

Concerning the photo on the Hopton incline, I was reminded of a booklet that my son gave me several years ago.  He had been walking the 'White Peak Trail' and bought me the book as a souvenir.  Unfortunately, it had suffered from some time inside a very damp rucksack (he suffered typical Pennine weather!). 

 

The booklet is "A Pictorial Guide - The High Peak and Tissington Railways" published by the Peak Park Joint Planning Board and Derbyshire Council, 1980.  It contains many very atmospheric photos covering the history of these lines.  One shows an Allen locomotive at the head of a goods train rounding the tight Gotham curve, which restricted the maximum wheelbase that could be used on the line.  Other photos include one in colour of a North London Tank at Middleton top.

 

 

There is also a copy of an advertisement for 'Handyside's Steep Gradient System', which was apparently demonstrated on Hopton Incline in 1876 but not adopted.

 

 

On the subject of 3D modelling:  when I first started, I looked at Blender and decided I could not ascend the learning curve.  Subsequently, I found a good basic tutorial to 'Fusion 360' and have made a number of simple models with this software. 

 

To use these models for 3D printing, an additional software package is needed to 'translate' the original model into a 'layered' or 'sliced' model for use by the printer.  I use 'Cura' software for this purpose.  In principle, I would have thought that any standard 3D modelling package should be able to create an output for simulators, such as Trainz (I have created designs for the Microsoft Flight Simulator) but the constraints imposed by the need for 'moving' models would have to be taken into account - by no means a simple process!

 

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, MikeOxon said:

The booklet is "A Pictorial Guide - The High Peak and Tissington Railways" published by the Peak Park Joint Planning Board and Derbyshire Council, 1980.  It contains many very atmospheric photos covering the history of these lines.  One shows an Allen locomotive at the head of a goods train rounding the tight Gotham curve, which restricted the maximum wheelbase that could be used on the line.  Other photos include one in colour of a North London Tank at Middleton top.

 

 

 

That's nice. Webb chimney and lamp socket at the top of the smokebox, introduced 1872/3, but otherwise as built, I think. No cast numberplates but the number painted on the cab side-sheet, I think? All of which would suggest the engine is green, not black; we're told that all LNWR locomotives were black by 1880. (Goods engines were not lined out until the 1890s and only then if they had the vacuum brake, I believe.) However, the fourth wagon bears the initials M R and is one of those bought-up PO wagons - so the photo is 1882 at the earliest. The LNWR wagons are two-plank wagons to diagram D2, which were built from 1870 onwards. 

 

So, is this an engine that has survived repainting into black into the early 1880s, hiding away in the remote Derbyshire hills?

 

 

Edited February 19, 2021 by Compound2632