Annie's Virtual Pre-Grouping, Grouping and BR Layouts & Workbench

[Hroth]

Nice piccies! Hope you had an enjoyable cuppa!

 

BTW Has that green 4-4-0 done a SPAD?  Its approaching those closed crossing gates at a rate of knots!

[Annie]

36 minutes ago, Hroth said:

Nice piccies! Hope you had an enjoyable cuppa!

 

BTW Has that green 4-4-0 done a SPAD?  Its approaching those closed crossing gates at a rate of knots!

It was the best cuppa ever Mr Hroth.

 

The invisible trigger for opening the gates is just a whisker ahead of the 4-4-0 and the speed restriction should start to kick in about then too.  Having just passed through a junction on a curve it would be doing no more than 40mph at this point.  Once past the station at Mirely St Marys (just visible under the bridge) it will be allowed to show off just how swift an engine it is.

Unfortunately with the way the Trainz game engine works crossing gates aren't recognised as being equivalent to a Home signal when closed so the signal the 4-4-0 had just passed was off even though the gates hadn't opened yet.

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, Annie said:

It was the best cuppa ever Mr Hroth.

 

The invisible trigger for opening the gates is just a whisker ahead of the 4-4-0 and the speed restriction should start to kick in about then too.  Having just passed through a junction on a curve it would be doing no more than 40mph at this point.  Once past the station at Mirely St Marys (just visible under the bridge) it will be allowed to show off just how swift an engine it is.

Unfortunately with the way the Trainz game engine works crossing gates aren't recognised as being equivalent to a Home signal when closed so the signal the 4-4-0 had just passed was off even though the gates hadn't opened yet.

 

Something not quite right with the interlocking there, I think. Time for some swift work from Bernard Cribbins.

[Annie]

12 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Something not quite right with the interlocking there, I think. Time for some swift work from Bernard Cribbins.

It might be possible to set up a trigger device to detect whether the crossing gates are closed and prevent the signal going to 'off', but I have the feeling that would involve some fairly advanced incantations (scripting) to make it work.

[Annie]

The wharf station at Foxhollow.  It's awfully nice to see it again after having it archived away for the past couple of months.

 

 

 

[Annie]

(Faux) Bunbury on a hazy Summer's afternoon.

 

[Annie]

I've been investigating the amazing Broad Gauge/narrow gauge convertible Fletcher Jennings 0-6-0 tank engines built 1869 that were the property of the Severn & Wye.  They lasted in narrow gauge form until the end of the pre-grouping era so they must've been properly useful engines.  Naturally any small Broad Gauge engine for which drawings exist is going to be of interest so I will be endeavouring to find out more about them.

 

 

 

 

 

I managed to grab this lovely image from a rumoured to be trojan afflicted TtTE website despite Malwarebytes warning of despicable acts and hideous things being done with jam.  What the talking engines with faces mob want with such a nice engine I don't know.

 

It's certainly a very nice model ('O' Gauge?) of a Severn & Wye Fletcher-Jennings in its narrow gauge form.  I've gone so far as to order a copy of 'The Severn & Wye Railway' by H.W. Paar (Part 1) in order to find out more these interesting engines.  Unfortunately the April 30 1869 copy of 'The Engineer' doesn't say all that much about them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 20, 2021 by Annie
added a picture

[Compound2632]

Friar Tuck there is in fact an Avonside engine, their No. 810 of 1870. Of the two Fletcher Jennings engines, Robin Hood, No. 83 of 1868 was built BG and like Friar Tuck was re-gauged in 1872. The other, Little John, No. 140 of 1874, was of course SG from the start; having been rebuilt at Lydney with new frames and cylinders in 1894, it remained in that condition until withdrawal at the beginning of 1905. Robin Hood was withdrawn as soon as the Midland and Great Western took over in 1895, the engines becoming Midland stock, but Friar Tuck, along with the Vulcans, Sharpness, Sabrina, and Forrrester, were rebuilt to become little gems of Johnsonian perfection. [S. Summerson, Midland Railway Locomotives Vol. 3 (Irwell Press, 2002) pp. 191-3.

 

Were there any Severn and Wye engines that did not come to the Midland?

[Annie]

50 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Friar Tuck there is in fact an Avonside engine, their No. 810 of 1870. Of the two Fletcher Jennings engines, Robin Hood, No. 83 of 1868 was built BG and like Friar Tuck was re-gauged in 1872. The other, Little John, No. 140 of 1874, was of course SG from the start; having been rebuilt at Lydney with new frames and cylinders in 1894, it remained in that condition until withdrawal at the beginning of 1905. Robin Hood was withdrawn as soon as the Midland and Great Western took over in 1895, the engines becoming Midland stock, but Friar Tuck, along with the Vulcans, Sharpness, Sabrina, and Forrrester, were rebuilt to become little gems of Johnsonian perfection. [S. Summerson, Midland Railway Locomotives Vol. 3 (Irwell Press, 2002) pp. 191-3.

 

Were there any Severn and Wye engines that did not come to the Midland?

Thank you very much Stephen, your knowledge concerning the Midland Railway is formidable..  I did wonder about 'Friar Tuck', but I was confused a little by the similarities to the Fletcher-Jennings engines and failed to notice the differences.  'Captain Baxter' as the only surviving SG Fletcher-Jennings locomotive has many of the same constructional features despite being an 0-4-0 which will certainly be a help when it comes to having a Broad Gauge Fletcher-Jennings engine commissioned in a month or two when the 'Down the back of the couch cushions' goddess gives forth of her bounty.

 

This is a GWR absorbed Fletcher-Jennings, - No.1356

 

 

And another, No. 32, but I don't know if they are the same engine or not.

 

[Northroader]

Severn and Wye loco history ain’t simple, make yourselves comfortable but stay awake. They started to get steam engines in 1865, when there was thirty miles of 3’8” tramway. By 1867 they had five locos, and decided to go broad gauge, converting three engines (!) Two broad gauge engines were obtained, but in 1872 they decided to go to standard gauge, so the five broad gauge engines were converted to standard. The S&W amalgamated with the Severn Bridge Railway in 1879. A receiver was appointed in 1883, and the railway was taken over jointly by the MR and GWR in 1894.

The first five engines were Fletcher Jennings 1864, with flangless wheels for the tramroad. 1-4 were 0-4-0WT, 2-3 being the ones that were converted, 1 becoming a canal dredger.  5 was an 0-6-0ST which also went through two gauge conversions. All these had gone by the time of the receivership.

Then there’s the engines Annie has found:

Robin Hood, Fletcher Jennings 1868 , MR 1121A, was b.g. originally.

Will Scarlet,         “.                “.     1873, GWR 1356.

Little  John.         “.                 “.    1874. MR.  1123A

Alan-a-Dale.      “.                 “.      1876 GWR 1355.

There were then another eight locos

Ranger 0-6-0 (reb ST).                         GWR 1358 extremely complicated history

Raven 0-6-0 ST        Boulton       1876  sold on.

Wye 0-4-0 T.  Fletcher Jennings 1876 GWR 1359

Sharpness.      Vulcan                  1880 MR.  1124A

Severn Bridge.     “.                       1880 GWR 1354

Sabrina.                “.                        1882 MR 1125A

Forester.               “.                        1886 MR  1126A

Gaveller.               “.                        1891 GWR 1353

In addition four locos were hired from Boultons siding at different times.

Information lifted from RCTS Locos of the GWR part 3.

Edit sorry I’ve missed two Avonside engines:

Friar Tuck   0-6-0T 1870  MR 1122A was b.g.

Maid Marian 0-6-0T 1872 GWR 1357

Edited April 20, 2021 by Northroader

[Annie]

Wow!  There's complicated and then there's complicated.  Thank you very much for explaining all that Mr Northroader.

 

My aim though is not to build a model of the Severn & Wye, - though who knows what might happen when I least expect it; - but instead to obtain a digital 3D model of a small and interesting Broad Gauge locomotive.

 

I will be very pleased though when the book I've purchased arrives next month as I'm always interested in finding out more about Broad Gauge railways however brief their existence.

 

'Little John'.  Meant to post this before, but got muddled,

 

 

[Northroader]

That “No.32” has a funny looking number plate. I fancy if you look at the mileometer that’s been wound back as well.

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, Annie said:

your knowledge concerning the Midland Railway is formidable..

 

No, I just have books...

 

6 hours ago, Northroader said:

Severn and Wye loco history ain’t simple, make yourselves comfortable but stay awake. 

 

... but not ones about the Great Western. I hadn't appreciated that the engines were divided between the two companies. It's entertaining to see how the same engine turns out after Swindonisation or after Derbification!

[Regularity]

35 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

No, I just have books...

The real knowledge is in knowing which book to look into and where to look within it...

[Annie]

Track testing at Great Mulling.  No.34 the station pilot was handy nearby so I took a rake of six wheelers from the carriage sidings and we were off.  TANE seems to like to add  its idea of an engine driver to the footplate so No.34's regular crew were a bit miffed that they were being supervised like they were raw beginners.

 

 

And this is what it was all about.  I'd been having problems with portals ever since I'd moved my Norfolk layout into TANE so I thought I'd change some of them over to return loops instead.  I'd first tried this on the line west of Bunbury and then on the line south of Little Keldon and it had been reasonably successful.

Having tried hidden loops I've found that I much prefer to create loops that are disguised by the surrounding scenery.  Removing the portals on the Mulling on the Hill branch and putting in a loop was fairly simple.  I had a lot of fun building up the scenery around it with the village of Mulling Wood complete with its own all expense spared halt and Mulling Farm over in one corner.

The schedule for the branch's passenger service is a simple one, - down to platform 2 at Great Mulling, run around the train and come back again so it was an ideal candidate for a loop.  Portals might seem convenient as a way to introduce and remove trains from a digital layout, but their timing is fairly coarse and can't be finely adjusted and as well as that their timing can drift and progressively speed up which can cause all kinds of problems with trying to maintain a working schedule.  A written schedule that in effect can be 'handed' to the driver is a much more precise instrument. 

 

 

 

[Edwardian]

The characteristic 0-6-0 side tanks of the Severn & Wye may conveniently be broken down into several groups, as per Northroader's summary. 

 

Fletcher Jennings was already an established provider for the line when, it supplied a Broad Gauge convertible, Robin Hood, with 4' wheels and o/s cylinders in 1868.  This was joined in 1870 by Friar Tuck, an Avonside of larger dimensions, with 4'3" wheels and o/s cylinders.  Both locomotives were converted the Standard Gauge by Avonside in 1872.  Both went to the Midland.

 

Avonside supplied the first loco built as standard gauge in 1872, Maid Marian, which had 4' wheels, a w/b of 5'6" + 6'6" and o/s cylinders. This loco went on to be GWR 1357 and was rebuilt at Swindon in 1904. Sold off in 1910, fate unknown.

 

Next came a return to Fletcher Jennings with a class of 3:

 

Will Scarlet of 1873, 4' wheels, w/b 6'1" + 6'8", o/s cylinders 

Little John of 1874, 4' wheels, w/b 6'1" + 6'8", o/s cylinders 

Alan-a-dale of 1876, 4' wheels, w/b 6'1" + 6'8", o/s cylinders 

 

Will Scarlet (as 1356) and Alan-a-dale (as 1355) went to the GW, surviving until 1923 and 1905 respectively (with 1356 being sold-off and re-absorbed in 1921; Annie, your two pictures of Will Scarlet/1356 show her rebuilt by the GW in service as Alexandra (Newport & South Wales) Docks & Railway No.32). Little John went to the Midland.

 

Given the build-dates, these locomotives are properly Fletcher Jennings, but your advertisement, Annie, which shows a remarkably similar locomotive, cannot be earlier than 1884, as it bears the name of the Lowca Engineering Company Ltd, the name adopted when the Fletcher Jennings business incorporated that year.  Thus, we have the happy prospect of Lowca supplying freelance companies with Severn & Wye type 'Class G' engines throughout the 1880s!  With options of 3'4" and 3'6" wheels, there is scope to use, yet again, the little Electrotren 0-6-0 chassis for an OO gauge model.  

 

Finally, as Northroader lists, came the five Vulcans.  Rather larger in appearance with 4'3" wheels and with i/s cylinders, they were supplied between 1880 and 1891. 

 

As Northroader's list shows, there were numerous other types acquired or hired along the way.

 

[Annie]

11 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

The characteristic 0-6-0 side tanks of the Severn & Wye may conveniently be broken down into several groups, as per Northroader's summary. ..........

Thank you very much James for your analysis.  In my dim brained way I'd recognised that the Lowca advertisement was from a later time, but hadn't yet gathered in the implications of Severn & Wye like 'Class G' engines being set loose into pre-grouping freelance railways.

Understandably I would want a 'Robin Hood' Broad Gauge clone in the same fashion that I have 'what-if' possibly plausible modified standard design Manning Wardle 0-6-0 well tanks running about on my Broad Gauge layouts.  And if I go so far as to commision a Broad Gauge Fletcher Jennings, then it isn't all that difficult for a standard gauge 'Class G' to be created at the same as well.

 

Must say I do like your plan to use the Electrotren 0-6-0 chassis as a basis for a take over of obscure minor railways.  Could one of the very clever 3D printing magicians on the forum be persuaded to put together a 'Class G' bodyshell perhaps?

[Edwardian]

On 20/04/2021 at 06:09, Annie said:

I've been investigating the amazing Broad Gauge/narrow gauge convertible Fletcher Jennings 0-6-0 tank engines built 1869 that were the property of the Severn & Wye.  They lasted in narrow gauge form until the end of the pre-grouping era so they must've been properly useful engines.  Naturally any small Broad Gauge engine for which drawings exist is going to be of interest so I will be endeavouring to find out more about them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This must be Robin Hood.  Described in the GW RCTS volume that both Northroader and I have drawn from, as a Broad Gauge convertible, the end view really shows this, with the bunker and the side tanks built out to main splasher width but with boiler and spectacle plate not reflecting the width of the frames. 

 

A model, virtual or physical, will look rather quirky.

 

Below is, I believe, Friar Tuck, the Avonside convertible. 

 

 

On 20/04/2021 at 06:09, Annie said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

Thank you, @Annie, @Northroader, and @Edwardian, for enlarging my knowledge of the Severn & Wye locomotive fleet - previously I had only known of them from sources dealing with absorbed Midland engines, so I was only getting half the picture, as I said above.

 

I presume that Severn & Wye carriages and wagons were also divided between the two companies - is anything much known of these, beyond the brake third behind Friar Tuck in that photo taken at Berkeley Road (the whole carriage, at least above platform level, can be seen in the version of that photo that is reproduced as Plate 101 in R.J. Essery & D. Jenkinson, Midland Locomotives Vol. 3 (Wild Swan, 1988)?

Edited April 22, 2021 by Compound2632
? added

[Annie]

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

This must be Robin Hood.  Described in the GW RCTS volume that both Northroader and I have drawn from, as a Broad Gauge convertible, the end view really shows this, with the bunker and the side tanks built out to main splasher width but with boiler and spectacle plate not reflecting the width of the frames. 

That's very much the same kind of specification I gave Paul of Paulz Trainz when I asked him to convert his standard gauge Manning Wardle well tank to the Broad Gauge.  He annoyed me though by making a careless job of the conversion with some parts not being symmetrical from one side to the other which is the main reason why I won't ask him to do anything for me again, but overall they are reasonably convincing.  The weatherboards were made for me by a member of the creator group I belong to and are definitely not Paul's work.

I'm planning on asking Cameron Scott who made the magnificent B&ER 4-4-0ST for me to make a digital model of a Broad Gauge Fletcher-Jennings based on the drawing from 'The Engineer'.  As you say James a model will look a little on the quirky side, but very appealing all the same.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Thank you, @Annie, @Northroader, and @Edwardian, for enlarging my knowledge of the Severn & Wye locomotive fleet - previously I had only known of them from sources dealing with absorbed Midland engines, so I was only getting half the picture, as I said above.

I've learned so much more about the Severn & Wye locomotive fleet than I ever knew to start with by attempting to find out more about the convertible Fletcher-Jennings locomotive.  Once the book I've ordered arrives I will hopefully be able to learn even more about this fascinating railway.  The book is supposed to contain drawings of some of the rolling stock as well as the engines so I hope that's so and I won't be disappointed.

[Edwardian]

7 minutes ago, Annie said:

That's very much the same kind of specification I gave Paul of Paulz Trainz when I asked him to convert his standard gauge Manning Wardle well tank to the Broad Gauge.  He annoyed me though by making a careless job of the conversion with some parts not being symmetrical from one side to the other which is the main reason why I won't ask him to do anything for me again, but overall they are reasonably convincing.  The weatherboards were made for me by a member of the creator group I belong to and are definitely not Paul's work.

I'm planning on asking Cameron Scott who made the magnificent B&ER 4-4-0ST for me to make a digital model of a Broad Gauge Fletcher-Jennings based on the drawing from 'The Engineer'.  As you say James a model will look a little on the quirky side, but very appealing all the same.

 

 

 

I've learned so much more about the Severn & Wye locomotive fleet than I ever knew to start with by attempting to find out more about the convertible Fletcher-Jennings locomotive.  Once the book I've ordered arrives I will hopefully be able to learn even more about this fascinating railway.  The book is supposed to contain drawings of some of the rolling stock as well as the engines so I hope that's so and I won't be disappointed.

 

I noticed how the side tanks on Robin Hood (and presumably the bunker) extend to the width of the main wheel splashers, but not the small outer splashers for the rod cranks. 

 

As a BG engine built in 1868 and converted to SG a mere 4 years later, you'd be very lucky to find a photo in BG condition, so interpreting the drawings correctly will require some care.  

 

 

[Annie]

I'm expecting that there will be a point where I'll have to say to Cameron Scott to do some of the details according to my own best guess and if it's wrong it's my mistake and not his.  The fact that the side tanks cover the driving wheels, but not the small outer splashers at least gives an indication of how wide the tanks should be.  There are a number of photos on-line of 'Captain Baxter' undergoing a complete overhaul and while 'Captain Baxter' is an 0-4-0 Fletcher-Jennings and not an 0-6-0 there are a good many constructional similarities which are likely to be a useful guide.

[Edwardian]

Today's rabbit hole, and further evidence if there were any need of it that every day's a school day here, I have stumbled across the Table Bay Harbour Fletcher Jennings BG well tank. You may well be familiar with this, but it's a new one on me, and quite delightful. 

 

[Annie]

And this apparently is the 1874 side tank Fletcher-Jennings engine that also worked at Table Bay Harbour.  I knew about the two surviving Azores Broad Gauge engines, but I didn't know about the ones at Table Bay.  As you say James, - every day is a school day in the pre-grouping forum.

 

Edited April 22, 2021 by Annie
can't spell for toffee

[NeilHB]

Annie, 

 

Hopefully the attached are useful for you. All collected over the last few years whilst researching the Severn & Wye myself. The H.W. Parr book is good but doesn't really include much in the way of rolling stock drawings. 

 

 

The above three came to me courtesy of David Andrews when I enquired a few years back if he would be willing to reintroduce the 7mm scale kits he used to produce of the FJ and Vulcan locos, sadly he wasn't, but was kind enough to provide these drawings. 

 

The below are all from my own hand to 7mm scale, and are based on what could be gleaned from photos and other folks models of the coaches owned by the S&W - no u/frame detail as I could never get enough detail from the photos, but the photo in the Parr book of the 1st class observation carriage should suffice to provide suitable details:

Severn & Wye Rly GRWC All 3rd - 7mm Scale.pdf

Severn & Wye Rly GRWC Brake 3rd - 7mm Scale.pdf

Severn & Wye Rly GRWC All 1st - 7mm Scale.pdf

 

I hope that they are useful.