Annie's Virtual Pre-Grouping, Grouping and BR Layouts & Workbench

[Hroth]

40 minutes ago, Jake The Rat said:

Relaxing? Not at 120mph...

 

 

 

Honneger IS best in small doses...

 

However, whoever put together the video clips could have at least chosen Pacific type locos, some of the shots are completely wrong and some of them are of entertainingly parochial interest!  For example:

 

@ 3.08 a GWR 4-6-0
@ 4.17 Something pre-grouping
@ 4.25 An A4 (at least it IS a Pacific!)
@ 4.54 more A4 action
@ 5.02 A bit of BR publicity probably advertising HST
@ 5.48 back to A4s

 

At least 4.17 is appropriate to the preoccupations of this thread....

 

 

 

 

[Annie]

Yes it was almost as if the person who put the video clip together wasn't entirely certain what a 'Pacific' was and if they threw enough different steam locomotives into the mix at least some of them might be a 'Pacific'.

 

It was difficult to find a proper version of this......, but I couldn't leave it out since it was my favourite poem when I woz a schoolgirl.

 

 

[Edwardian]

2 hours ago, Jake The Rat said:

Relaxing? Not at 120mph...

 

 

 

Ah, the lamentable Continental practice of fitting wheels to only one side of a locomotive. 

 

The music seems to do what the composer said on the tin. Certainly it evokes something far mightier than West Norfolk motive power! However, for the joy of the inter-war Pacific at speed, I'd go for Vivien Ellis's Coronation Scot. 

 

Perhaps the most evocative music accompanying a train at speed is found in film scores. For a sense of excitement it's hard to beat Jerry Goldsmith's cues for The First Great Train Robbery, though the trains themselves don't bear inspection while ultimate train-music joy is surely that found in the waltz from Sir Richard Rodney Bennett's Murder on the Orient Express score.  

 

For me there are also plenty of unintended evocations. I find passages in Brahms's First Symphony evocative steam-hauled trains, and, bizarrely, parts of the Hans Zimmer score for the, frankly odd, ahistorical 2004 outing of the Arthur legend (not Dudley Moore, the other one), which for me evoke North Eastern mineral engines pounding up to Stainmore Summit!  Mind you, the pass was used by the Romans, so it's not that far off!

[Caley Jim]

10 hours ago, Annie said:

 The temptation to ask for No. 2905 'Lady Macbeth' was almost overpowering, 

Surely, whatever she was, Lady MacBeth was no Saint! 

 

Jim 

[Regularity]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

Ah, the lamentable Continental practice of fitting wheels to only one side of a locomotive. 

I found it looked the same on the other side.

Fast workers, these Continental chaps, getting them swapped over.

[Compound2632]

No. 100 was, I read, first named just Dean before becoming William Dean; at what point did it become No. 2900? Presumably before the Ladies were built in 1906. They're a mixed bag of elegant females - some are obvious enough; Lady Disdain refers, I think, to Beatrice in Much Ado About Nothing; but I'm stumped by Ladies Superior and of Quality. The Saints and Courts show that boring Great Western tendency to systematic alphabeticity, coupled with a tendency to lose interest after the first half-dozen letters. The 1905 batch have a rather more interesting set of names from the novels of Walter Scott - also popular with two of the other pre-Grouping companies addicted to naming locomotives.

[rocor]

On 23/08/2021 at 10:26, Edwardian said:

 

Ah, the lamentable Continental practice of fitting wheels to only one side of a locomotive. 

 

 

 

Not just the Continentals (21C146).

 

 

 

Edited April 7, 2022 by rocor

[MikeOxon]

On 22/08/2021 at 07:01, Annie said:

..... Here's the prototype Saint at Westbourne Park shed in 1902. ....

 

I love the sheer simplicity of that first Saint but it must have been a massive shock to all those used to Dean's curvaceous elegance!  Holcroft claims to have added the curves to the ends of the footplate, to soften the blow a little on later Saints and Stars.  The GWR then settled into a design rut from which it never emerged.  Fortunately, the original design was very good.

[Hroth]

53 minutes ago, rocor said:

 

Not just the Continentals (21C146).

 

 

 

He was possibly Bullied into it?

 

Running away VERY quickly....

[Hroth]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

No. 100 was, I read, first named just Dean before becoming William Dean; at what point did it become No. 2900? Presumably before the Ladies were built in 1906. They're a mixed bag of elegant females - some are obvious enough; Lady Disdain refers, I think, to Beatrice in Much Ado About Nothing; but I'm stumped by Ladies Superior and of Quality. The Saints and Courts show that boring Great Western tendency to systematic alphabeticity, coupled with a tendency to lose interest after the first half-dozen letters. The 1905 batch have a rather more interesting set of names from the novels of Walter Scott - also popular with two of the other pre-Grouping companies addicted to naming locomotives.

 

There were the three prototypes, Dean (100), Vanguard (98) and Albion (171), then small batches starting with the "Scotts" and  "Ladies", followed by the main production of "Saints" and finally the "Courts".  The 29xx series seems to have been settled on by the introduction of the "Saints" .  A gap seems to have been left at the beginning of the 29xx series for earlier locos to be renumbered into, which appears to have taken place in 1912/3.

 

All from the Wikipedia entry.

 

It seems that the GWR used low numbers for prototype (or essentially prototype) locomotives, from one extreme (the 0-4-0 experiment 101) to the other (The Great Bear 111).

 

Edited August 23, 2021 by Hroth

[Annie]

24 minutes ago, MikeOxon said:

I love the sheer simplicity of that first Saint but it must have been a massive shock to all those used to Dean's curvaceous elegance! 

Yes indeed, - it would have very much been the new man laying down the gauntlet as to how it was going to be from now on.  That sheer almost zen like simplicity soon started to get a bit cluttered up though.

 

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

No. 100 was, I read, first named just Dean before becoming William Dean; at what point did it become No. 2900? Presumably before the Ladies were built in 1906.

From the Great Western Archive:

2900  William Dean. Prototype of what was to become the Saint class. Built unnamed with parallel boiler February 1902 and numbered 100. First shed allocation Bristol, Bath Road. Named Dean June 1902. Renamed William Dean November 1902. Fitted with half-cone boiler June 1903, replaced with a full-cone boiler February 1912. Superheated April 1910. Last shed allocation Chester. Withdrawn June 1932.

 

No mention at all as to when the number was changed though.

 

Yes some of the names are a bit odd, but I do like the Saints as you might expect.  Once they got to the Courts it seemed to be just a boring old grind working down the list of places with 'court' on the end of their names.

The names from Walter Scott's novels are much more interesting since a good few of those engines were initially built as Atlantics.

[Regularity]

4 hours ago, MikeOxon said:

The GWR then settled into a design rut from which it never emerged.  Fortunately, the original design was very good.

Maybe it wasn’t a rut, then?

The role of the CME was to ensure the safe, reliable and economical running of the locos and stock, and their supporting infrastructure. If you view the Castles and Halls as the incremental improvements on the Stars and Saints that they were (and, for example, Hawksworth improved them in turn, too), then Collet was doing a good job of delivering a good return on the investment. It was only with changing circumstances, such as WW2 and subsequently changes in the labour market which highlighted the the need for easier maintenance, etc.

[Annie]

In between clawing my way out of the Dreamworld and falling back into it this is what I've been doing.

The dual gauge track kit looks nice when it's all put together, but it's a real trial to get it assembled so everything works properly.  Since I already had Crowcombe Heathfield half dismantled for rebuilding I thought it would be a good place to make a start.  The trackplan is about the simplest it could be as well.

 

 

One of the manual point switches will be eventually replaced by an invisible one and they'll then be both linked to work together by a clever little box filled with magical incantations.  Trainz was never really set up for dual gauge trackwork so all kinds of clever fudges have to resorted to.

 

 

It's been a while since I had my ex B&ER 4-4-0ST out of my digital trainset box.  The Broad Gauge heavy bolster trolleys are something I found just recently hidden away in a lost corner of the DLS.  Not really the sort of thing that would get used for tracklaying I suppose.

 

 

My GWR 850 Class has been doing its bit as well, - I've only derailed it twice so far with making trackwork mistakes.

 Steve Flanders was saying to me that he'd like to do some of the later period Broad Gauge engines as digital models for Trainz so as you can guess I've got a little list.

 

Edited August 23, 2021 by Annie
can't spell for toffee

[Annie]

Crowcombe Heathfield as at end of play today.  Some parts are true to the 19th century OS maps and some parts are fudges due to me not wanting to pull apart the original TS2004 layout's landscape to correct its errors.  Other parts are wild educated guesses due to a lack of information as to what the  area surrounding the 1890 station looked like.  From the OS maps i do know that there were an awful lot of trees in mixed wood lots so at least I've got that bit right.

 

        

 

Signals can get a bit interesting since there's no way to make an individual signal recognise a Broad Gauge train and a standard gauge train occupying the same section of dual gauge track.  The ground signal is a McKenzie & Holland type that was used here in NZ as well as in Oz and also on the Great Northern Railway.  Its larger friend is a McKenzie and Holland split post signal.

The ground signal is indicating that the GWR '850' is clear to go.

 

[Compound2632]

That two-horse cart looks decidedly broad gauge itself.

Edited August 24, 2021 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

22 hours ago, Regularity said:

Maybe it wasn’t a rut, then?

The role of the CME was to ensure the safe, reliable and economical running of the locos and stock, and their supporting infrastructure. If you view the Castles and Halls as the incremental improvements on the Stars and Saints that they were (and, for example, Hawksworth improved them in turn, too), then Collet was doing a good job of delivering a good return on the investment. It was only with changing circumstances, such as WW2 and subsequently changes in the labour market which highlighted the the need for easier maintenance, etc.

 

More of a furrow than a rut, then?

 

Or perhaps like one of those West Country lanes between tall hedges - good for getting to your destination but not much of a view of the country on either hand?

[Annie]

Just one more snap before I pack up and go.

 

[Regularity]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

More of a furrow than a rut, then?

 

Or perhaps like one of those West Country lanes between tall hedges - good for getting to your destination but not much of a view of the country on either hand?

I think it was more a case of, if it ain't broke, don't fix, but see if you can refine it next time?

If I were a shareholder of the GWR at that time, I would have been very happy with the approach.

[AdamsRadial]

5 hours ago, Annie said:

Signals can get a bit interesting since there's no way to make an individual signal recognise a Broad Gauge train and a standard gauge train occupying the same section of dual gauge track.

Scratching away at an old memory here, have you looked at the invisible signals on the DLS? Assuming your apparently one-piece mixed gauge track is actually two distinct lines in close proximity, you might be able to have invisible signals on one of the gauges and then chat by scripts to the visible signals?

[richbrummitt]

3 hours ago, Regularity said:

I think it was more a case of, if it ain't broke, don't fix, but see if you can refine it next time?

If I were a shareholder of the GWR at that time, I would have been very happy with the approach.

Off the back of the war, followed by amalgamation of railways, strikes etc. I have to agree - especially when the GWR regularly dipped into its reserves to pay the shareholders during these fallow years. 

[Annie]

3 hours ago, AdamsRadial said:

Scratching away at an old memory here, have you looked at the invisible signals on the DLS? Assuming your apparently one-piece mixed gauge track is actually two distinct lines in close proximity, you might be able to have invisible signals on one of the gauges and then chat by scripts to the visible signals?

Yes the mixed gauge track is essentially two distinct lines in close proximity Adam.  The kit of parts is still somewhat experimental and I'm hoping that by actually building a layout using the kit I can give Steve Flanders some useful feedback to add its ongoing development.

There was a signal link script asset which worked in TS2012, but is now broken in TANE and TRS19.  I have got a copy of the TS2012 script, but it might as well be written in Babylonian cuneiform for all my ability to understand it.  On a long rambling single track line like the Minehead branch invisible signals are essential anyway to prevent slowdowns due to the way that the Trainz game engine can detect an adverse distant signal from over a mile or more away resulting in a very annoying immediate drop in speed.

If the signal link script can be made to work again the ground signals next to the signals will become redundant, but for the moment at least they do help a lot with general trouble shooting while I'm testing and laying tack.

[Annie]

Book Corner:

 

“The Axholme Joint Railway: Including the Goole and Marshland Light Railway and the Isle of Axholme Light Railway (Oakwood Library of Railway History)”

I have just received this most excellent book in the post this morning.  And I must praise 'Di and Saul' booksellers of Knott End on Sea for their excellent service and master class packaging in getting my almost as new copy of The Axholme Joint Railway to me despite the madness that has been set loose on the world.

As to the book itself it has a wonderful big map of the line which fortunately hadn't been lost and was still with my copy and it has so many nice clearly reproduced photos, further maps, historical documents and a detailed well written text.  Everything anyone wanting to research a railway might need.  This book definitely gets my seal of approval.

 

[Annie]

On 23/08/2021 at 23:20, Compound2632 said:

No. 100 was, I read, first named just Dean before becoming William Dean; at what point did it become No. 2900? Presumably before the Ladies were built in 1906.

 

William Dean still numbered 100 at Bristol Temple Meads.  Was fitted with a half-cone boiler in June 1903 and a full-cone boiler in February 1912.  So your before 1906 theory is still in the running Stephen.

 

[Compound2632]

4 hours ago, Annie said:

William Dean still numbered 100 at Bristol Temple Meads.  

 

We're all subconsciously indoctrinated from an early age in the classic look of Great Western engines. Doesn't the arrangement of cylindrical cylinder cladding with the valence extending down to meet it look bizarre to our eyes? To say nothing of the deep buffer beam.

[Edwardian]

There is what I tend to think of as the 'classic' steam era look. It applies to the way the railways appeared in terms of both infrastructure and equipment. It's the railway as remembered. It's the railway as preserved. It's the railway as modelled in our youth, and, to a large extent, still. It's the railway depicted in everything from Rev. Awdry's Railway Series, to the Trix and Hornby Dublo catalogues to the Boy' Own Bumper Book, the Night Mail etc, etc!

 

Essentially, it's the the way railways in Britain appeared in the '30s-'50s.  The further you stray forward or back from this, the less familiar the railway appears. The 'classic' steam railway is the image many of us grew up with, and because we grew up with it, we just accepted it. 

 

That is why, I suggest, the Churchward-Collett style does not strike us as odd; for us it's always been there as part of the 'classic' look.

 

But, actually, as we know, it was a radical break from how British locomotives had traditionally looked, on the Great Western and elsewhere. 

 

It's nonetheless hard to place your mind in a position to appreciate this fully, because we've all grown up with the idea that the contents of Didcot's large War Loans shed are entirely normal. But they aren't. 

 

With their high running boards, drop frames and coned boilers, Churchward's locomotives were more like the Anglicised US Mogul imports that the Midland and the GNR bought in than anything drawn by a British railway company.

 

 

 

 

For me, I need to see the original Churchward treatment, whereby the drop in the frames at the front and to the cab are not yet softened by the familiar curves added subsequently.  That is starker and less familiar look and allows me to gain a better sense of how unconventional Churchward's locomotives must once have appeared.