Annie's Virtual Pre-Grouping, Grouping and BR Layouts & Workbench

[mpeffers]

From the excellent Gloucestershire Railway Memories site:

https://56a0cc30-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/gloucestershirerailwaymemories/home/locomotive-sightings/unusual-loco-workings-in-gloucester-in-1957/47994.jpg
“2-6-6-2 Beyer-Garratt 47994 under the coaler at Barnwood on 7 July 1956 when it was an 18A Toton engine. These locos were sometimes seen in the early 1950s, working from the East Midlands through to Westerleigh on coal trains, but became less common as the decade wore on. I saw four of them go through Hatherley in the mid-1950s. As it happens, 47994 was the last of the class of 33 locos to be withdrawn, in April 1958. Photo Stephen Mourton collection.”

 

For those less familiar with the area, Barnwood is in Gloucester and Hatherley the south-west side of Cheltenham. This wouldn’t preclude them having been routed via the Honeybourne Line, but the Lickey route would seem more likely...?

Edited September 22, 2020 by mpeffers
Link Fixed (I hope...)

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, mpeffers said:

From the excellent Gloucestershire Railway Memories site: 

https://56a0cc30-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/gloucestershirerailwaymemories/home/locomotive-sightings/unusual-loco-workings-in-gloucester-in-1957/47994.jpg?attachauth=ANoY7coju2-H6rfoBfgZeA-UK-pbCP-SfOi3FWAp0pgptIOMwAGPG8ST5hciun0mvlqFdkJAu7v7j4sqrMy3cvIeHU1B_jFsGHg2tH3DKHGzjJIciCEAxYJRupwB-ZbIn1gJfQBGshHKb4nLxKhz1is9zOh01sq62Nh288U2sVU3pfV3ZEHGwP3jsFMqgcUxvP_r4zjelt0r2odLrW51UDXuctBFmdN1PxCIzuoD2TooFhwPOCC9XyYa1ii3WlXuv8x6oMdPuc4JFB9IV2mh3uYmxg03rRAd1CS9y5f5pq1Vv015Y2vLOrHfVtRjaMLNXKBGziaXfoNkwydWYY0AgAbaOyUt7ABDzQ%3D%3D&attredirects=0
“2-6-6-2 Beyer-Garratt 47994 under the coaler at Barnwood on 7 July 1956 when it was an 18A Toton engine. These locos were sometimes seen in the early 1950s, working from the East Midlands through to Westerleigh on coal trains, but became less common as the decade wore on. I saw four of them go through Hatherley in the mid-1950s. As it happens, 47994 was the last of the class of 33 locos to be withdrawn, in April 1958. Photo Stephen Mourton collection.”

 

For those less familiar with the area, Barnwood is in Gloucester and Hatherley the south-west side of Cheltenham. This wouldn’t preclude them having been routed via the Honeybourne Line, but the Lickey route would seem more likely...?

 

Well, I stand corrected, with apologies to @Annie. Barnwood was the ex-Midland shed at Gloucester; to my mind it's pretty certain the Midland route would have been taken; there is the possibility of the Gloucester Loop line via Evesham, rejoining the main line at Ashchurch, for trains to Westerleigh but not Gloucester. I'm not entirely sure I'd have enjoyed being on the footplate of a Garratt being pushed down the Lickey by a loose-coupled coal train! According to Terry Essery, the facing points for the down platform loop at Bromsgrove were the best maintained points in the country!

 

There was a brief period in the early 50s when the LNER Garratt was tried out as a replacement for the Lickey Banker 58100. I wonder if there's any record of a train going up the Lickey with a Garratt at both ends!

[MikeOxon]

55 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

....

There was a brief period in the early 50s when the LNER Garratt was tried out as a replacement for the Lickey Banker 58100. I wonder if there's any record of a train going up the Lickey with a Garratt at both ends!

According to Wikipedia "The LNER Class U1 Garratt was also tried out unsuccessfully in 1949–1950 and again in 1955. On one occasion it was banking a train hauled by LMS Garratt No. 47972 which stalled on the bank and was rescued by "Big Bertha", resulting in the formation of a train with nineteen driving axles."

[Annie]

44 minutes ago, mpeffers said:

From the excellent Gloucestershire Railway Memories site:

https://56a0cc30-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/gloucestershirerailwaymemories/home/locomotive-sightings/unusual-loco-workings-in-gloucester-in-1957/47994.jpg
“2-6-6-2 Beyer-Garratt 47994 under the coaler at Barnwood on 7 July 1956 when it was an 18A Toton engine. These locos were sometimes seen in the early 1950s, working from the East Midlands through to Westerleigh on coal trains, but became less common as the decade wore on. I saw four of them go through Hatherley in the mid-1950s. As it happens, 47994 was the last of the class of 33 locos to be withdrawn, in April 1958. Photo Stephen Mourton collection.”

 

For those less familiar with the area, Barnwood is in Gloucester and Hatherley the south-west side of Cheltenham. This wouldn’t preclude them having been routed via the Honeybourne Line, but the Lickey route would seem more likely...?

 

34 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Well, I stand corrected, with apologies to @Annie. Barnwood was the ex-Midland shed at Gloucester; to my mind it's pretty certain the Midland route would have been taken; there is the possibility of the Gloucester Loop line via Evesham, rejoining the main line at Ashchurch, for trains to Westerleigh but not Gloucester. I'm not entirely sure I'd have enjoyed being on the footplate of a Garratt being pushed down the Lickey by a loose-coupled coal train! According to Terry Essery, the facing points for the down platform loop at Bromsgrove were the best maintained points in the country!

 

There was a brief period in the early 50s when the LNER Garratt was tried out as a replacement for the Lickey Banker 58100. I wonder if there's any record of a train going up the Lickey with a Garratt at both ends!

 

The two of you aren't helping my addiction for big British engines climbing steep gradients hauling coal trains.  Someone on the Trainz forum has just told me where I can get 'Big Bertha' which was a very severe temptation and one where I'm planning to weaken after an appropriate amount of time has gone past and go and get it.

 

Yes I've been told about the LNER Garratt on the Trainz forum and again I know where to get one, but this time I'm not going to weaken.  The LNER Garratt would simply become another orphan in my digital trainset box, - especially since there were difficulties with getting it to close safely with a train when banking due to the length of the thing and the footplate crew not being able see how much clearance they had before the buffers came in contact.

Also my first steps into serious railway modelling as a teenager were via the Midland Railway so the idea of running a 'foreigner' on Lickey does not sit well with me.  It's bad enough that the Western Region were eventually given Lickey and they infested it with Pannier tanks.

 

I see 47994 is one of the Garratts with a rotary bunker.  The ones I have are based on the first three Garratts without this feature with the BR ones being Nos. 47997 and 47999.  I still think that if the Derby design office had let Beyer Peacock get on with it and not interfered with insisting on using dodgy group standard axleboxes the Garratts might have done better than they did.

[Annie]

8 minutes ago, MikeOxon said:

According to Wikipedia "The LNER Class U1 Garratt was also tried out unsuccessfully in 1949–1950 and again in 1955. On one occasion it was banking a train hauled by LMS Garratt No. 47972 which stalled on the bank and was rescued by "Big Bertha", resulting in the formation of a train with nineteen driving axles."

Not helping Mike.  I've got lots of work still to do on Minehead and now you're going to have me running trains on Lickey bank for the next fortnight.

 

Nice to have confirmation though of a LMS Garratt working on Lickey bank even if it did shame itself by stalling.

[Annie]

I went ahead and changed the interactive coal loader and unloader around so that now loaded coal trains go down Lickey bank instead of up.  I can understand why the original layout builder did it the other way around though since it's much more of a driving challenge.

 

I also had a look at the Garratt's engine specs and it was basically the equivalent of two Horwich Crabs which explains why it could pull anything.  I've now modded it to be the equivalent of two 3F's which I think is much closer to what it should be.

Under test it's plain No. 47997 has lost some of its earth shaking qualities, but now it's working in a much more believable way with the 45 wagon train making it work harder instead of being something almost beneath its notice.  It's awfully good though that my LMS Garratts have a home at last which means that I can move them out of Middle Vales and let the Super D's have their railway back again.

 

 

 

 

And new arrivals:

'Big Bertha'.  The creator of this model has also done Midland and LMS versions as well.  The LMS version could be interesting should I want to roll back time a little, but unfortunately the Midland version is a bit of an orphan since the sole properly modelled Midland engine available for Trainz is a late pre-grouping Compound.  There are some coaches and there is a brake van as well as ONE solitary 5 plank open wagon which is my own work.  Not exactly enough to build a railway around is it?

 

 

'Jinties'  These two are by Gary Price of GP Productions and he has very much specialised in making LMS locomotives.  His engines haven't got all the 'magic' stuff that the current models that are being made for Trainz have, but there's nothing wrong with them for all that.

 

[Compound2632]

56 minutes ago, Annie said:

I went ahead and changed the interactive coal loader and unloader around so that now loaded coal trains go down Lickey bank instead of up.  I can understand why the original layout builder did it the other way around though since it's much more of a driving challenge.

 

I also had a look at the Garratt's engine specs and it was basically the equivalent of two Horwich Crabs which explains why it could pull anything.  I've now modded it to be the equivalent of two 3F's which I think is much closer to what it should be.

Under test it's plain No. 47997 has lost some of its earth shaking qualities, but now it's working in a much more believable way with the 45 wagon train making it work harder instead of being something almost beneath its notice.  It's awfully good though that my LMS Garratts have a home at last which means that I can move them out of Middle Vales and let the Super D's have their railway back again.

 

 

From the accounts by Terry Essery and others, it wasn't so much going up that was a feat of enginemanship - put the regulator right over, engine into full forward gear, and let the banker do the rest. The art was in not running away coming down and pulling up just in line with the water column at the platform end at Bromsgrove - if stopped too short or overrun, it would be a question of unpinning enough wagon brakes to creep forward or set back, wasting time. If spot on, the tender tank could be filled while the guard walked along the train taking the brakes off.

 

What does Bromsgrove look like on your layout?

[Annie]

Bromsgrove.  Images run from north to south.

Bear in mind that the layout was built with what was available for Trainz in 2008 so it was done with what was available at the time.  I've only changed the track and the trees and hedges.

 

 

 

 

 

[Annie]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

From the accounts by Terry Essery and others, it wasn't so much going up that was a feat of enginemanship - put the regulator right over, engine into full forward gear, and let the banker do the rest. The art was in not running away coming down and pulling up just in line with the water column at the platform end at Bromsgrove - if stopped too short or overrun, it would be a question of unpinning enough wagon brakes to creep forward or set back, wasting time. If spot on, the tender tank could be filled while the guard walked along the train taking the brakes off.

 

What does Bromsgrove look like on your layout?

I don't see a water column at the end of the platform, just the one shown in the fourth picture where 'Big Bertha' is parked on the banking engine road.

 

I hear what you're saying though about going downhill being the tricky part.  I know it's only a railway simulator, but working some of my 19th century engines with minimal brakes and with only a brake van for additional braking down from Crowcombe Heathfield to Bishops Lydeard without the train running away isn't particular easy.  Getting up to Crowcombe Heathfield was the easy part.

[Compound2632]

The target water column was alongside Bromsgrove South signal box. which ought to be nearly opposite the coaling stage.

 

Here's a photo of the Banker in the bank engine siding, along with a 3F 0-6-0T and, I think, a Super D!

Edited September 22, 2020 by Compound2632

[Annie]

I looks like I'm missing a signal box as well as a water crane.  The OS maps on the NLS website don't show much and the most modern one is for 1927.  It does show where the signalbox should be however.

 

I hadn't got to the stage of looking at maps or photos yet, though I was aware that the trackplan had been simplified in places and of course the huge wagon works is entirely missing.

 

This photo on wikipedia seems to show a water column at the end of the platform

 

 

 

Edited September 22, 2020 by Annie
added picture

[Annie]

12 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

There was a brief period in the early 50s when the LNER Garratt was tried out as a replacement for the Lickey Banker 58100. I wonder if there's any record of a train going up the Lickey with a Garratt at both ends!

No double Garratt picture, but here's the LNER U1 Garratt in company with 'Big Bertha'.

 

[Compound2632]

OK I had a read of the relevant bit of Terry Essery's Saltley Firing Days and I'm not certain which water column he was talking about though he does mention the relief cabin (where crews were exchanged) at the south box.

[Annie]

Going by the 1885, the 1901 and the 1927 OS map the south box has been moved three times.  The 1901 map shows a small building beside the south box that's most probably a relief cabin, but the other two maps don't show anything,

 

I did find this early BR period photo though which shows the south box (and U1 Garratt + Jinty).  This matches the same position for the south box as the 1927 OS map.  I suppose they must've got tired of moving it around.    No sign of the relief cabin though.

However the 1927 map does show a building which could be a relief cabin over by the banking engine siding where the UI Garratt is parked with the Jinty,  As you might expect the U1 Garratt is right in the way of being able to see it.

 

 

[Annie]

 

[Annie]

Still rotten sleepy and I don't want to do anything, BUT I did put the missing water crane in at the end of the Bromsgrove down platform.

 

 

And I also placed Bromsgrove South signal box where it's supposed to go.  But I'm going to have to do some trackwork revision since the siding behind the signal box curves to clear it.  And there's also supposed to be a turntable behind the signal box.  I don't know if the turntable was removed in BR days or not, but I don't much care since it's very likely that I'll be eventually rolling the layout back in time.

Also I keep spelling 'Bromsgrove' all wrong.  I'm sure I spelt it wrong on the signal box.

 

This is from the 1927 OS map.

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

Terry Essery's book has a May 1956 photo of the south box with the water column in front of it between the main and relief lines. The relief cabin is a flat-roofed concrete box structure immediately to the north of the signal box. There's also a water tower in the background - curved roof, on stilts, same style as this Great Western one at Henley in Arden, so I don't know what was going on there!

 

Nice bit of film though a shame about all those interloping panniers. Four at once, though that's not unprecedented - Essery has photos showing one, two, three, and four 3F 0-6-0Ts banking together. It always seems to be the one at the back putting out the filthiest exhaust!

[Annie]

Thanks very much Stephen, that's just the information I need.  I found an S&C signal box that looks to be about the same as the one in the burry photos I found.  And I do have a Midland type water column designed to fit between two running lines so I'm good there.  A flat roofed shed should be possible to find if I have a dig around.

 

I don't know what's going on either with that water tower that looks suspiciously like a GWR one.  I wonder if the WR planted it there after they took over.  All my BR engines either carry 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' or the early totem on their tank sides or tender sides so I'm staying out of the WR time period.

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, Annie said:

I don't know what's going on either with that water tower that looks suspiciously like a GWR one.  I wonder if the WR planted it there after they took over.  

 

It was there in 1956, well before the Wessey got its nose in.

[Annie]

State of play at the moment.  The concrete cabin is an LNER one, but it's about the only suitable building I could find.

Still not very sure about that water tower.  All the ones on the layout at present are S&C.  I do have an older model water tower which is a rough match for the picture you linked to Stephen, but I'd like to try and find out more about it first.

 

[Compound2632]

The question has been put:

Here's a good c. 1958 photo of Bromsgrove South box and relief cabin, from an angle at which the offending water tower cannot be seen, though the water column is prominent. LMS / BR standard UQ signal arms on Midland timber posts; fogman's hut (?) neat the base of the relief line signal post (why necessary so close to the box? Or is it the privvy?); and various mysterious iron and wooden posts.

[Annie]

Thanks again Stephen.  The S&C was a huge project in Trainz some years ago and one of the many benefits of it is a very large collection of Midland signal boxes of different types.  Now that I've seen a picture of the south signal box at Bromsgrove I should be able to sort through and find a better match.

 

I think I should be able to reskin the LNER cabin into something closer to the original now that I know what it looks like.  All in all a really useful photo.

Unfortunately while a very small collection of Midland signals have recently been made available in Trainz there is nothing available to represent those wonderful Midland timber signal posts.  The signalling on the layout is simplified, but perfectly functional.  Trainz sometimes refuses to work with 'by the book' prototypical signal placements so it's always a compromise getting signals to work properly.

 

The mysterious water tank can be seen in the background of this photo  https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/21732048401/in/photostream/  I'm going to blame it's presence on railway enthusisat time travellers with a sense of humor and access to heavy lifting equipment.  

 

Seriously though I will need to do some landscape bashing in this area first before placing any water towers since both the OS maps and old photos show the ground behind the signal box at a higher level than it is on the layout.

 

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, Annie said:

The mysterious water tank can be seen in the background of this photo  https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/21732048401/in/photostream/  

 

I did look at that photo but thought "ugh panniers" and moved on before I'd spotted the water tower!

[Annie]

State of play with Bromsgrove South signal box and surroundings.  Due to trackwork simplification by the original layout builder there would be nothing for the two junction signals by the signal box to signal about even if I did have the correct signals to hand.

 

 

I have purchased three more 'Jinties' from GP Locomotives.  This trio were shedded at Bath in case anybody is wondering.  Gary at GP Locos always identifies where the engines he sells were shedded which is a nice touch even though I'm not so fastidious as to be madly fussy about such things.  Nice basic simple models without any 'magic' bits and they do what it says on the tin, - at £3.50 each they are a bargain.

 

 

When I was teenager I owned a book on BR steam in the 1950s and that's where I developed my secret liking for unrebuilt 'Patriots'.  Well now I've got one courtesy of GP Locos. - 'Lady Godiva' shedded at Bristol (no silly schoolboy jokes please).

It's looking increasingly like the Lickey incline is going to stay in the BR era having shelled out some of my pocket money on more LMR engines.  I have a set of 'Blood & Custard' Stanier coaches all ready for 'Lady Godiva' to take up the incline so it's not just going to be coal trains on this layout.

 

 

Edited September 24, 2020 by Annie
can't spell for toffee

[Compound2632]

Looking forward to seeing those LMS Standard 3F 0-6-0Ts on the bank.

 

There's a tale that Stanier, who wasn't really a great enthusiast for streamlining, regarding it as a commercial gimick, instructed Coleman to draw out an unstreamlined Princess Coronation to show the board what the engines would look like. Coleman drew "Lady Godiva" plates on the engine, which led to a reprimand from the board. Curiously, the first of the unstreamlined Princess Coronations was named "City of Coventry"...