Annie's Virtual Pre-Grouping, Grouping and BR Layouts & Workbench

[Northroader]

Greetings from Devon instead of Wiltshire (I’ve pinched my daughters pad while she’s out with kids and dog) Your Broad Gauge progress is looking good, only thing to add is the old conversion photo looks like it was at the east end of the station looking east, so signal box is east one. The main line is at the left with the tracks converging on Carvedras viaduct, and the goods sidings to the right. There wasn’t any Skinners Brewery in Truro then either, who cares about the Cathedral?

p.s. the Monogram you showed isn’t Cornwall Railway, it’s an old GWR one, you’ll find it on station overbridges done when they had a purge in the 1880s

Edited August 25, 2019 by Northroader

[Annie]

Yes it's a pity that old photo is so blurry or else a lot more details might be found.  I dug about and found a North Staffordshire Railway signal box that's a close match for the eastern signal box and I'm considering options for the goods shed.

Even though all the trackwork is in bits it's given me some good clues as to how the goods siding were laid out so all in all a useful photo despite its sad subject and less than best condition.

[Annie]

I mentioned earlier I was working on retexturing an old model of Frome station to pre-1900 colours.  The model has a few faults and inaccuracies which I can't do anything about unfortunately and the way the textures have to be applied is pretty darn limiting, but I did the best I could with it.

 

It's acting as a stand in for the station at Truro at the moment until I can come up with something better.

 

 

 

 

 

The yard at Truro is a half dismantled mess and the viaduct hasn't got any track on it yet, but hopefully I can get that sorted over the next few days.

[Annie]

Faced with the prospect of having to make 'Trains cancelled due to leaves on the line' signboards I thought it was high time I started to put a proper steam era stamp on the layout.  You've seen various screenshots of how the layout was originally, - pretty certainly, but a total fire hazard in the pre-grouping steam era.

I suppose starting a raging forest would at least take care of the leaves on the line problem.  Don't tell the idiots running the modern day toothpaste tube train railways that though just in case they try it.  

 

 

This is going to be a long and drawn out task, but the results so far are very encouraging.  Basically what I'm doing is clearing the lineside of trees and shrubs just as was done on the real railways.  And there are an awful lot of trees and shrubs.  On most of the embankments I found myself having to remove anything up to a hundred shrubs tightly packed together.  No wonder the memory hit on my computer was so extreme on some parts of the line.  The worse thing was in more than a few places scenic work had been done, then it had been covered over by something else without deleting what was there before.  Even if the covered items can't be seen the computer can still see them and these hidden items will nibble away at the simulator's available memory and resources.

 

With trees it came down to a mix of either deleting them or moving them to create an open cleared zone and in some places on the line all the trees and shrubs were massed along the trackside with hardly any to be found in the surrounding fields.  I'm really not sure what the original layout builder was thinking when he created this layout.  The permanent way as a seemingly magical fertile zone is definitely a new one on me.

 

So here's some snaps.  All kinds of final adjusting  and fettling will have to happen once I have things done to a basic standard.

 

Penwithers Junction now relaid as per the 1878 OS map.

 

'Knotty' N.S.R. signal box pretending to be a BG era Cornwall Railway signal box.  The nameboad defaults to lower case style BR blue error style lettering unfortunately.  I've got a kit of signal wire parts and I'm still trying to figure it out.

 

On the Falmouth Branch.  I've done some work on the line to Chacewater too, but I didn't take any snaps of that.

 

 

 

 

[corneliuslundie]

Re your comment about lineside jungle, I suspect that the route author was assuming that you would always use the driver's view and therefore not need any scenery beyond the trees if they were thick enough.  There are quite a few American MSTS routes like that. With auto tree positioning i suppose it makes work quicker, especially for a route several hundred miles long as is often the case with American routes. But all too obvious when you use any other viewpoint.

Keep up the good work.

One comment on the track, The transverse tiebars are rather more prominent than in photos f the real thing., though the spacing looks about right at 11 ft or so. for the 1880s - it was originally about 30 ft but that was when it was held down by piles. Is it the colour or not enough ballast? Don't go by photos taken during conversion as they will have removed as much ballast as possible in advance.  But still very nice.

By the way, remember that on some lines Brunel didn't use standard baulk road, but a very heavy V shaped rail section which was intended to be used without lots of timberwork and save money but was a disaster. I know it was used on the South Wales Railway but i don't know about Cornwall. especially the branches. There is an article about in either the HMRS Journal or the WRRC Archive but I can't remember which.

Jonathan

[Annie]

It's all very peculiar about the lineside foliage Jonathan because this is a very well sceniced layout, but much of the scenery couldn't be seen from the footplate because of all the trees.  As you can see from my screenshots the layout has opened up and looks much better without having what amounted to a corridor of thickly planted trees either side of the line.  In some places once I'd cut back the trees and shrubs I could see that they were hiding errors with forming the landscaping, but by and large I've been able to fix those.

 

With the track it's possible to set the height so it sits down deeper into the ballast so it looks more like as it appears in the available period photographs.  I haven't done this yet since I haven't finished with doing track alignment & etc, but once I'm happy with it I will be doing that.  I also have a version of BG track with conventional sleepers as can be seen in some old photos as in this example at Torquay.

 

 

I've heard about that heavy 'V' section rail, but I've not seen any photos of it in use so far.

[Schooner]

8 hours ago, Annie said:

...a raging forest...

Leaves on the line is one thing, but Ents on the line...!

 

Love that pic of Torquay. Is there any backstory to the sleeper spacing eg. prep for conversion to standard guage?

[Annie]

I'm not really sure about the sleepers or why some track was done that way rather than by Brunel's 'baulk road' method, but when it came to the gauge conversion it was done by narrowing the trackwork to standard gauge by moving the timbers supporting one of the rails closer to the other after cutting the spacing transom timbers to a shorter length.

A good few years ago now I spoke to an elderly gentleman who had been employed by the GWR at Swindon and he told me that the baulk type track could still be seen in sidings and goods yards on the former Broad Gauge lines for a very long time after the grouping.  Recently I read that some of the old baulk track has persisted at some locations until the 1960s.  Something to bear in mind when building a GWR layout based in the heart of the old Broad Gauge territory.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baulk_road

[Annie]

I can't promise it's Falmouth, but here's a nice late 1870's ladies swimsuit picture.

 

[Annie]

I've asked Paul of Paulz Trainz to make me a Broad Gauge version of his E.B Wilson well tank.  Yes I know I'm very good at horrifying the purists, but the existence of such an engine would not have been beyond the bounds of possibility during the Broad Gauge era.  If you had gone along to E.B Wilson back then and enquired about such an engine they would have said, 'Certainly sir (madam), - how many do you need?'  So on that basis I'm going to do just the same.

Once I've been able to gather together enough information about certain Broad Gauge engines I will be asking Paul to make them for me which will be an expense I'll need to save up for, but in the meantime plausible 'what-ifs' from back in the day are something that I can afford.

 

Edited August 27, 2019 by Annie
fumble brain

[Compound2632]

9 hours ago, Annie said:

It's all very peculiar about the lineside foliage Jonathan because this is a very well sceniced layout, but much of the scenery couldn't be seen from the footplate because of all the trees.  As you can see from my screenshots the layout has opened up and looks much better without having what amounted to a corridor of thickly planted trees either side of the line.  In some places once I'd cut back the trees and shrubs I could see that they were hiding errors with forming the landscaping, but by and large I've been able to fix those.

 

With the track it's possible to set the height so it sits down deeper into the ballast so it looks more like as it appears in the available period photographs.  I haven't done this yet since I haven't finished with doing track alignment & etc, but once I'm happy with it I will be doing that.  I also have a version of BG track with conventional sleepers as can be seen in some old photos as in this example at Torquay.

 

 

Just catching up on all this splendid virtual modelling! The baulk road's rigidity was a really bad thing - Ahrons says engines were reckoned to be "two coaches better" on transverse sleepered sections. On the other hand, he makes the point when it came to the gauge conversion - much less work involved in cutting the transoms and pushing the baulks across than in re-drilling every sleeper for a new chair location. I suppose there must have come a point at which the decision was taken that any broad gauge renewals would be carried out with transverse sleepers. The baulks must have been quite expensive pieces of timber and increasingly hard to obtain in sufficient quality, though maybe the total volume of timber in a transverse sleepered road was greater. Anyway, I'm wondering, is it possible to set the rolling resistance of the road in the software, so that engines exert less effort on the non-baulk road?

 

2 hours ago, Annie said:

I can't promise it's Falmouth, but here's a nice late 1870's ladies swimsuit picture.

 

 

I know it's August Bank Holiday week with record temperatures (here in the UK at least) but do we really have to stoop to this "Phew What a Scorcher" level?

Edited August 27, 2019 by Compound2632

[Northroader]

Yeah, but look at the hats they’re wearing.

[Annie]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Just catching up on all this splendid virtual modelling! The baulk road's rigidity was a really bad thing - Ahrons says engines were reckoned to be "two coaches better" on transverse sleepered sections. On the other hand, he makes the point when it came to the gauge conversion - much less work involved in cutting the transoms and pushing the baulks across than in re-drilling every sleeper for a new chair location. I suppose there must have come a point at which the decision was taken that any broad gauge renewals would be carried out with transverse sleepers. The baulks must have been quite expensive pieces of timber and increasingly hard to obtain in sufficient quality, though maybe the total volume of timber in a transverse sleepered road was greater. Anyway, I'm wondering, is it possible to set the rolling resistance of the road in the software, so that engines exert less effort on the non-baulk road?

 

 

I know it's August Bank Holiday week with record temperatures (here in the UK at least) but do we really have to stoop to this "Phew What a Scorcher" level?

No not really Compound.  The only way to have different rolling resistance between the baulk track and the cross sleepered track would be to re-write the engine specs for both locomotives and wagons/coaches and  use them only on the baulk road track and nowhere else.

[Annie]

I did some further work at Truro station and fitted the wagon turntable and goods shed in place along with laying out and aligning their associated trackwork.  The wagon turntable isn't correct since the cruciform turntable I needed to use can't be rotated which I needed it to do to align it with the station track at platform 1.  The turntable in the picture is a three way turntable fudged to have an extra track.  Not ideal, but better than a poke in the eye. 

I had some problems at first with the station site and yards not being level, but I seem to have fixed that now.  I have no idea how anyone could expect to build a proper functional station yard with well aligned trackwork on a site that's full of dips and hollows.

The Brunel viaduct is now properly aligned and set in place.  It only has a short length of track on it at the moment at the Truro end, but that will be attended to soon.

The goods shed isn't ideal.  It's actually a Broad Gauge trans shipment shed with one wide and one narrow entrance which would be fine if I was using mixed gauge trackwork, but I'm not so it will have to manage with the Broad Gauge track being carefully aligned and centred through the narrow gauge entrance.  The other goods shed I have is shorter and with squared off doorways whereas Truro's shed had arched doorways and was quite a large goods shed.  I'll most probably darken down the outside planks to represent it's newer and less weathered condition since it more than likely got fresh coats of creosote reasonably often during the Broad Gauge era.

The signal box is a longer N.S.R. one than I used at Penwithers and I found a water tank/vat that seems to be about the right size.  I have GWR ones, but I deliberately chose a water tank/vat that wasn't identifiably GWR  since the Cornwall Railway did things their own way when it came to its railway infrastructure.

 

 

When the first Broad Gauge engines and rolling stock were first released back in TS2004 days there was a great outpouring of Broad Gauge models.  There are 75 bridges, 14 turntables, 6 tunnels dating from TS2004 along with a couple of goods sheds and a station (Frome).  In addition to all this Steve Flanders has continued to make Broad Gauge models from time to time.  Somehow interest in BG modelling sort of faded out as time went on, but just lately there's been a resurgence with Trainz folk making new Broad Gauge layouts using the tools in the latest versions of the simulator and getting some spectacular results.

[Annie]

Progress!  Essentially the trackwork is now complete at Truro.  Guided mainly by the 1878/1880 OS map I've managed to put together something that's reasonably close to being correct allowing for what models & etc are available.  The turntable can't be finely adjusted into the right position unfortunately since they are set up to sit on the gridlines of the underlying landscape mesh so I had to take the best position out of a bad lot and fudge things around it.  The engine shed is post grouping GWR and is one of Steve Flander's models.  I decided to use it because the situation with double track engine sheds for Trainz is in a word terrible.  Most are old models and not especially well done so until something better turns up the GWR shed will do for now.

 

[Compound2632]

Nice red wagons.

[Annie]

Purists and sticklers for authenticity run away and hide now because Paul of Paulz Trainz has just sent me my new 7ft gauge well tanks.

 

As they arrived from Paul.  I'll be doing all my usual mods and enhancements to them over the next few days.

 

 

And just for you Mr Compound I took a snap of my Broad Gauge coal wagons.  These aren't my work.  They were made by John Whelan a good few years ago now.

[Annie]

Truro in narrow gauge pre-grouping days.

 

 

 

[Annie]

With great care and my mind fortified against the evils of modernism I used Google earth to have a closer look at the shape of the landscape around the railway station and things like 19th century walls and other  period details .  I was particularly interested in Richmond Hill where it joins Station Road and also the small side street Richmond Terrace where there were a goodly number of houses that are shown in the 1878 OS survey.  These houses still exist, - though some have been tastelessly modernised, - and they had been entirely missed out by the original layout builder.  I was able to have a look at St. Georges church and the tin smelting works as well even though the tin smelting works is a bit stuffed and mounted these days, but at least it's still there.

 

This photo taken in 1890 from somewhere roundabout the goods shed area shows the end of Richmond Terrace and the type of houses to be found there.  St. Georges church and St. Georges Road is at a lower level behind the hedgerow with the tin smelting works hidden behind the trees at the left of the photo.  Truro cathedral can be seen in the distance without its spire since it hadn't been built yet.

Usefully some of the houses on St Georges Road can be seen which is just as well because some ugly block of apartments is there now.

 

 

1890 cathedral without a spire.

Edited August 28, 2019 by Annie
added cathedral picture

[Annie]

St Georges Church, the vicarage and the tin smelting works can be seen in this nice old photo dating from the time before the Brunel viaduct was heartlessly torn down replaced by a double track masonry viaduct.  The goods shed can be seen above the tin smelting works and I'm starting to consider replacing the goods shed I'm presently using with something else with a closer appearance.  Not much choice with options though unfortunately (sigh).

 

Edited August 28, 2019 by Annie
minor edit

[Annie]

Some more progress.  Things are looking a little more finished off now.  I remembered that Ray Wiley from the creator group I belong to had done some engine sheds in grey stone so I removed the Churchward era GWR engine shed and put Ray's ones on the layout instead.  I've used Ray's carstone engine sheds before on my GER imaginary lines, but I'd forgotten that he'd done some versions in grey stone as well.

 

 

I'm very pleased with the new well tanks.  They'll be getting all the usual bit and bobs like side chains and different couplings, self contained spring buffers, number plates and a different paint job just like I've done with my SG well tanks.

 

I'm going to ask Paul if he can do a 7 foot gauge Castle class for me next.

[Edwardian]

Looking good Annie.  I note that you have dynamited the cathedral and the stone engine shed is a vast improvement.

[Annie]

Thanks James.  Yes demolishing a CoE cathedral when all my ancestors were batting for the other side during the Reformation was a slightly radical act.  Wars have started over less than that.  But as nice a model as it was it had to go because it was in the wrong place.  And even if it was in the right place there's the question of the truncated spire which is very noticable in all the photos I've seen from the early 1890's period.

 

I'm a lot happier with the engine shed now.  Having only used the carstone versions I'd completely forgotten about the grey stone ones and it looks a whole lot more plausible for my time period.  The Cornwall Railway being an independent line not built by the GWR is an interesting subject to model since they had their own distinctive building style.  The Cornwall Railway captured my interest when I was attempting to model the Looe branch and I'm really enjoying working on a representation of a section of it now.

 

The goods shed remains a problem.  Unlike nearly every other goods shed it's not a 'through shed' since the end wall at the eastern end doesn't have a doorway in it for tracks to pass through.  The Cornwall Railway built shed doesn't exist anymore having been replaced by two GWR built sheds after the grouping so I don't really have a lot to go on except for a couple of old photos where parts of it can be seen in the background.

 

And I was joking about the 7 ft gauge Castle class.   

Most probably next week I'll ask Paul to convert his Hurst 0-4-2WT  for me which will give me another smaller useful well tank engine of a generic 19th century appearance until such time as I can afford to get him to make one of the Broad Gauge 0-6-0 saddle tanks for for me.

 

[Charlie586]

This is fantastic stuff, Annie. I was reading the thread from the start, but skipped to the end when I noticed it was Broad Gauge. I've really enjoyed looking at the pictures.

As for sleepered track, I'm sure the answer as to where and what dates would be in the first McDermott book. I've seen a photo of Penzance with sleepered mixed gauge track which was obviously toward the end of the broad gauge. Can the simulator do mixed gauge track? I tried the MS simulator about 10 years ago with the intention of doing Hayle and the St Ives branch but never really got anything done.

 

[Annie]

Thank you Charlie I'm glad you enjoyed reading about my digital trainset and what I'm doing with it.

 

Regarding mixed gauge track it's not really possible.  Some very clever content creators for Trainz have been trying to find a practical way to make mixed gauge track that will function properly and after trying everything they could think of they couldn't get it to work.  Essentially the Trainz game engine is set up for recognising a single path down the centre of a length of track and trying to place two paths on what the game engine sees as one piece of track, - ie. the mixed gauge track, - causes a whole lot of problems.

So the West Cornwall line on my layout will have to put up with being Broad Gauge and like it without any complaining.  (Should have been Broad Gauge in my opinion anyway).

 

I hope you aren't too horrified by me having some of my digital SG 19th century models modified by their maker to become Broad Gauge models.  I will eventually commision one or two historically correct Broad Gauge engines, but until then the modified engines will allow me to operate my layout.  Another content creator, Steve Flanders, made a sizeable amount of of digital Broad Gauge models, but most are for the early Broad Gauge era and apart from a late condition 'Rover' there's nothing to cover the 1880 and onwards period apart from the very nice coaches Steve also made for the 'Rover' to run about with.

While I do also have a rambling sort of circa 1912 GER layout it's the railways of the mid to late 19th century that have been claiming my attention far more often of late and in particular the Broad Gauge.

Edited August 28, 2019 by Annie
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