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Serco to end Caledonian Sleeper contract early?


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It is not just the Central Belt services but also the trains from Carlisle to Edinburgh .... which are often leaving Carlisle over crowded and unable to pick up passengers ...

 

Now, we all know what the correct answer to that is, don't we....? 

 

Bring back 2S52 and 1S64  :sungum:

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Mindful of Andy’s caution above, I would say to all readers to read any article from the ‘Scottish’ media very closely as closer scrutiny generally undermines the headline which is generally created to a covert agenda.

As always, read, think, question, make a considered judgement.

Paul Weller has it sussed when he penned ‘News of the World’.

And now back to Railways.

 

Sorry, Andy! :-)

 

D4

Edited by Mad McCann
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the trains from Carlisle to Edinburgh and Glasgow which are often leaving Carlisle over crowded and unable to pick up passengers waiting at say Lockerbie. How not to run a railway?

These are TPE or possibly VT services, so nothing to do with either Abellio or Serco.  The TPE ones gain an extra coach when the new EMUs arrive. 

Edited by Edwin_m
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A harder winter than we've had for a few years?

 

John

I was looking for prices well beyond the winter and have decided that at present any such trips are out of my price range. Fortunately, I did manage to do the sleeper to FW when fares were quote reasonable.

 

Stu

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What a typical Scottish Meeja report - Yes it mentions Serco losses, mentions the Transport Minister speaking to Abelio (nothing to do with Serco contract), mentions the Unions and Labour shouting about the "Baw being burst" but nowhere does anyone suggest that Serco will end the Caledonian Sleeper.except for the title (with no supporting detail in the body of the text) Yes the contract is up for review in 2022 - but that was always the plan surely.

 

The Sunday Post should stick to what they do best.  Oor Willie and the Broons, Hon says get your shaving foam cheaper at Aldi, and adverts for 150 garden roses for £20...

 

Without trying to stray into politics and accusations of media bias, I would say that this confirms things that I have heard - Serco are not happy, seems they bid too high, and either revenue is not as high as expected or costs are higher than anticipated (hence my comment about this franchise having to compensate ScotRail when its sleeper causes delays - not something that happened before Serco took over). To be fair, that is what Serco do all the time - a couple of years ago they had to hand back our waste contract, because they found out they had bid too low for it. 

 

As regards the ScotRail issue, yes, again, there are real concerns at a high level about the viability of the franchise. Abellio arnt there to subsdise the Scottish taxpayer, they're in it to make a profit (regardless of your views on nationalisation/privatisation). They made a £3.6m loss last year, and had to get a loan of £10m from the NS. I have no doubt whatsoever that they are taking a close look at the numbers and seeing whether it is viable for them to continue, ie if they expect to recoup that loss and make profits. If they conclude they wont, they'll hand back the keys. 

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Perhaps mentioned elsewehere but Scot Rail removing coaches from the busiest trains in the Central belt is not clever. Rumours that trains are at the end of their lease and that new ones have not arrived is a poor excuse

Ray.

Not a week excuse, but what you can expect from the fragmented system.

The stock's owned by the ROSCOs, so if it is at the end of their lease, it's no longer Scotrail's to use, and is probably already contracted to go elsewhere

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Looking on the sleeper website recently I noticed how prices were on the up presumably to cover the cost of new stock ,watching it when it arrives at Crewe there dont seem to be many joiners ,maybe its numbers causing Serco to have second thaughts.

 

I don't think you should judge it by how many passengers get on at Crewe.

 

The great majority of passengers will have got on at London (or Watford, if they are still picking up there).

 

(And probably even fewer will get off going the other way because it does get in horribly early. I did it. Once).

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All

 

Is this down to traction policy they must have taken a hit on the class 73s 2 years to introduce 6 locos which were then found to have a major problem also the 92s have been misbehaving as well!

 

If Serco do give it up hopefully be the end of 73s

 

Dave

Edited by scottishlocos
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Services between Carlisle and Edinburgh, and Carlisle and Glasgow via Lockerbie, are not operated by Scotrail, but by Transpennine Express (TPE) and Virgin Trains. The TPE services are mostly formed by Class 350 4 car EMUs (occasionally in multiple), the Virgin trains are minimum 5 car Voyagers but more usually 9 or 11 car Pendolinos. There is one train per hour between Carlisle and Edinburgh and two per hour between Carlisle and Glasgow. Certainly exceptional loadings can occur when the railway is disrupted, but in my experience travelling by either Operator I have never seen a train so overcrowded it could not uplift passengers at Lockerbie.

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Is this down to traction policy they must have taken a hit on the class 73s 2 years to introduce 6 locos which were then found to have a major problem also the 92s have been misbehaving as well!

 

If Serco do give it up hopefully be the end of 73s

 

Dave

There do seem to have been loads of problems with traction, but I would have thought that would have cost GBRf rather than Serco (except in reputation)
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I shall miss them thundering up and flying down Boars Head bank, Wigan in the wee small hours. (That's the hours when I get up for a small wee !!!).

 

Brit15

 

Okay, we should maybe get one thing clear, Serco have not said they are ending the Caledonian Sleeper contract - despite what that headline implies (in the "Fragrant" - a plain lie sense) based on one small part of Serco's recent report to the Stock Exchange. He's selectively misinterpreting what the parent company actually said about it's "Onerous Contract Provision's" which was;

 

There continue to be a number of assumptions underpinning the provision that have a range of potential outcomes, including the train manufacturer delivering the new trains to the latest timetable and volume and pricing increases driven by the improved passenger service from the new trains. The position under the contract is expected to improve over time, as the terms of the Franchise Agreement provide a mechanism that requires Transport Scotland to bear 50% of contract losses from 1 April 2020. In addition, from 1 April 2022, we have the right to seek adjustments to the financial terms of the Franchise Agreement that would result either in a small positive profit margin for Serco from that date, or allow us to exit the contract.

 

​Both parties, Transport Scotland and Serco signed up to the terms of the contract including (over four years away) the right to make adjustments to the terms of the contract to make it more in their favour profit wise or allow them to leave. Note that he can't be bothered even mentioning the optimistic part "The position under the contract is expected to improve over time" rather conveniently as it wouldn't suit his agenda, and focusses on finding anyone from a political party or union who are against the whole concept of Franchising in the first place.  Throw in every other rail franchise problem even if they have nothing to do with the Caledonian Sleeper and BINGO - SERCO ARE ENDING THE CALEDONIAN SLEEPER

 

Today's words are TOSH (UTTER)

Edited by Bob Reid
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From what I recall Scotrail used a lot of cross resource from the domestic side to crew the sleeper services which kept costs as low as you could expect.

Since Serco have taken over a lot of that cross resource has been removed which brings in risk, if say a Stirling Guard went sick at late notice they could simply pull another guard in that's largely been removed now.

 

The choice of Class 92 and 73 was lets say poor, the Class 90s were and are widely suitable for the service generally reliable and known by crews.

Taking long stored Class 92s then running them through works was always going to be risky, the Class 73s on the Highland portions in multiples was even more a bizarre choice - I think the choice of GB as traction supplier was also poor as I demanded a complete traction change.

 

Maybe DB didn't offer or even bid for the work in the first place, the Class 67s had their problems and restrictions granted but again were a known beast to crews.

 

The new MK5 stock is going to really kick the operation into the 21st centenary and I'm looking forward to using the vehicles next year.

However, the choice of using Dellner couplers and again fitting traction with another point of failure isn't a good idea, especially in the weather the sleeper encounters.

 

Countries who have heavy snow most of the year use screw couplings, why does CS/GB/CAF think they wont experience issues?

 

I think taking the Sleeper from the main Scotrail operation was flawed, this 'news' is a warm up for Scottish Government that unless Serco can increase their profit once the new vehicles arrive they'll want to terminate their contract or at least get more money at the first break point.

 

I can see Serco walking away, as they contractually can in 2022 with Scottish Government going begging to Scotrail to take the operation back on with a nice big golden thank you of course.

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OK, so one can fly from London to Edinburgh for £30 each way.

Fly up the evening before and stay in a hotel, next morning take a train to wherever your choice of destination.

My questions are, what is the point of the sleeper trains, and why should I or any other taxpayer pay for someone else to use them?

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The new MK5 stock is going to really kick the operation into the 21st centenary and I'm looking forward to using the vehicles next year.

However, the choice of using Dellner couplers and again fitting traction with another point of failure isn't a good idea, especially in the weather the sleeper encounters.

 

So far as I know the sleeper currently requires shunters(?) to get down on the track and do the coupling/uncoupling at Edinburgh and Carstairs, travelling between the two by van. If the Dellner couplers mean this is no longer necessary, it ought to be quite a cost saving.

 

(On the other hand, there's the way I saw it done in Poland a couple of years ago, on a journey where the engine changed end twice, both times with the driver doing everything - standing up in the cab to see what he was doing while buffering up (nearly wrote a different word there), then leaping out of the cab and jumping onto the track to do up the coupling.)

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OK, so one can fly from London to Edinburgh for £30 each way.

Fly up the evening before and stay in a hotel, next morning take a train to wherever your choice of destination.

My questions are, what is the point of the sleeper trains, and why should I or any other taxpayer pay for someone else to use them?

 

Fair point, not everyone wants to fly, factor in airport parking charges, check in time, location of the airport, romance of the sleeper (?) the service becomes attractive.

The Cornish Sleeper there isn't an air service as far as i'm aware, that service also uses cross resource from the main GWR operation to keep costs down,

 

 

So far as I know the sleeper currently requires shunters(?) to get down on the track and do the coupling/uncoupling at Edinburgh and Carstairs, travelling between the two by van. If the Dellner couplers mean this is no longer necessary, it ought to be quite a cost saving.

 

(On the other hand, there's the way I saw it done in Poland a couple of years ago, on a journey where the engine changed end twice, both times with the driver doing everything - standing up in the cab to see what he was doing while buffering up (nearly wrote a different word there), then leaping out of the cab and jumping onto the track to do up the coupling.)

 

Would the ETS/ETH jumpers still need plug connecting from loco to stock ?

As far as im aware (I stand corrected) the Dellner connections only transfer brake and electronic control information ?

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OK, so one can fly from London to Edinburgh for £30 each way.

Fly up the evening before and stay in a hotel, next morning take a train to wherever your choice of destination.

My questions are, what is the point of the sleeper trains, and why should I or any other taxpayer pay for someone else to use them?

 

That's a good question, and is presumably why sleeper trains in Europe are something of a dying breed.

 

While I think the majority of seats on a London to Edinburgh flight will be sold for quite a lot more than £30t, the sleeper doesn't seem that cost effective these days compared with a flight and a hotel.

 

The days of £19 bargain berths seem to be long gone. The cost of a sleeper supplement may be similar to a hotel now (not sure), but that's on top of a fairly expensive walk-up ticket price.

 

The sleeper does let you have the evening free the day before - long enough to put the kids to bed before going out, perhaps. Though if there is a flight late enough you could probably manage the same.

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Would the ETS/ETH jumpers still need plug connecting from loco to stock ?

As far as im aware (I stand corrected) the Dellner connections only transfer brake and electronic control information ?

 

Perhaps that can be done by the train crew?

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I wanted to use the sleeper to go to Aberdeen. Doing so I'd be able to spend the evening at home with the family, put the kids to bed then take a train down to Euston, board the sleeper and wake up in Aberdeen. Effectively it'd knock a night off the number of nights spent away to a large degree and avoid an early-o-clock start if I achieved the same thing by taking the early morning flight from LHR. However, when my travel counsellor gave me the quotes it was very hard to either justify not just going up the previous evening and staying overnight or taking the early flight. Which was a shame as I'd have liked to use the sleeper.

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OK, so one can fly from London to Edinburgh for £30 each way.

Fly up the evening before and stay in a hotel, next morning take a train to wherever your choice of destination.

My questions are, what is the point of the sleeper trains, and why should I or any other taxpayer pay for someone else to use them?

You've obviously never paid for a hotel in Edinburgh - your £30 might open the mini-bar for the evening.....

Edited by Bob Reid
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OK, so one can fly from London to Edinburgh for £30 each way.

Fly up the evening before and stay in a hotel, next morning take a train to wherever your choice of destination.

My questions are, what is the point of the sleeper trains, and why should I or any other taxpayer pay for someone else to use them?

 

Read the other thread.

I asked a similar question and received an enlightening response.

Bernard

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