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Rain, Steam and Speed - William's Workbench


Lacathedrale
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For the jig itself, in the package I recieved I have the jig, a pair of corresponding plates for the wheels I'm using, and eight steel pins with pinpoints on both ends. The pins do not fit into the holes in jig at all, and attempting to close the jig with the pins causes them to jam in place. I can certainly look to replace with brass rod. I'm at work at the moment, so will have to report back tonight.

 

Hi William,

The pins supplied with the jig are actually wagon axles. (...being the most convenient way of supplying ready-made short lengths of 1mm dia. steel.)

You are supposed to file the points blunt, and cut them to length - easier done with them in the jig.

Once the pins are in the jig, they should protrude just enough for the 4 layers of the etched plates to stack up on them.

The pins should be permanently fixed in the jig - they are probably a tight push fit to begin with, and then the holes in the etched plates can be opened out with a broach so they are a sliding fit over the pins.

 

As others have said, it is a good idea to solder each set of 4 plates together.

 

You have been watching my series of Jubilee videos - have another look at Part 17 and you'll see what the tool should look like with the pins in place.

 

Nick.

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One thing to be aware of - there has been some recent redesign of the quartering jig. My understanding is that the etched plates have been replaced with CNC-milled plates which don't require soldering-up.

 

I don't know which version you have William?

 

HTH

 

Andy

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Hi Nick, as Andy has said, as of December the plates that come with the jig are milled rather than etched, i am happy to ream out those holes to make sure they are a snug fit on the pins/axles.

 

Unfortunately I literally cannot fit the axles into the holes in the jig - or at least, the couple I tried wouldn't go in and when I tried to close the jaws to insert them I just succeeded in jamming it all up. That said, I will  follow your example in video 17 and get them inserted/trimmed/fettled by hell or high water. 

 

Would bolts work? I've ordered some 14BA just incase.

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A useful tool to make the slight adjustments to quartering is a small watchmakers screwdriver. Hold the wheel on one side, insert the screwdriver between the spokes of the other wheel near the centre and gently twist the screwdriver. You can make much finer adjustments this way than by trying to turn the wheels between your fingers. Also, one you have set the driven axle, DO NOT touch it again, but use it as the datum against which to set the other axle(s).

 

Jim

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Well, I had to remove the motor, the motor shaft adapter, the worm gear, the stub axles and helical/spur gear. I also had to remove and re-insert the driven axle to dress the inside face of the gearbox - but with no coupling rods the thing rolls very smoothly. I am happy with that, because I feel like I went past the point of no return on the chassis a number of times during the disassembly, including inadvertently bashing one frame out by 5mm or so trying to remove that axle.

 

Coupling rods applied, it runs less smoothly. I had to re-drill the holes and I've come to realise the cheap chinese bits I've got just won't cut it - I'm sure I enlarged them more than I was hoping. There is about a 10 degree slack if I hold one wheel and attempt to turn the other. That feels like it's too much? I was much more careful with the other rod and I think it's fine, but with both rods on it doesn't freewheel at all. I can flick the wheels around and there's definitely no binding (and I have checked and re-checked the quartering) - so i can only assume that either the chassis has gone out of square on the horizontal plane (since there's no rocking and all wheels make contact with the track) , or that the extra slack is causing issues. Any ideas?

 

Either way today felt really good, because I'm sure that I would have absolutely thrown all my toys out of the pram on this one when I mangled the frame this morning - and at least now I've got some blood on the sword, so to speak.

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Whether or not the chassis freewheels is not a big issue in my view, it's how smoothly it runs under power.  Fit the motor and apply power direct to it and see how it all turns.  Maybe try it first without the rods on to check that the gear meshing is OK.  As the saying goes, you can't test a system at rest.  A bit of play is not a disaster.  I have an 0-4-4T which is around 40 years old, has two loose crank pins and a fair bit of wear in the 20thou p/b frames (no bearing in those days!) and you can turn the non-driven set of wheels about 1/8th of a turn, but it still runs sweetly.

 

To try it on the track, however, you will need to add some weight, something like a couple of chunks of lead stuck on top fore and aft somewhere with Blu-tack, ideally so that the weight is evenly distributed.  A chassis on its own is far too light for effectively collecting current.

 

Jim

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kTNz9KH.jpg

 

Thanks Jim, spent another 10 minutes swapping the rods around and I think I identified a particularly tight fit on one pin which I used a broach to ease, and now it DOES freewheel on an incline. Unfortunately after a bit of testing I've seen that the 9.5mm wheels I'm using will require me to mill out the underside of the splashers :(

 

I'd rather not repeat the rather frustrating process this morning, so would like to clarify that my next step is to refit the idler axle/gear and validate continued smooth running?

 

I was unable to properly fix the motor shaft adapter to the motor shaft, is there a secret or is it meant to be a push-fit? I'd rather not complicate things further with clutches as I've got no idea, unless they're very simple?

Edited by Lacathedrale
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Yes, refit the intermediate gear, but it's unlikely that it will then freewheel, but it should push along smoothly.

 

What is the problem with the adapter?  If it's just a bit loose, a spot of loctite or cyano will secure it.

 

A simple clutch can be made by cutting a slot in the end of one shaft and filing the end of the other shaft to a 'screwdriver' shape which will engage in the slot.  It doesn't need to go in terribly far, ½mm is enough.

 

Jim

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Jim, I really appreciate all your help on this one - thank you.  I will fit the idler gear and take it from there.

 

The following is a semi-ramble so feel free to ignore but it helps me get my thoughts in order:

  • My initial hope was that I could keep the Farish body mostly intact other than some small aesthetic tweaks on the outside - but it looks like I will have to mill away the underside of the splashers to fit my 9.5mm wheels at least.
  • The hanazono motor only fits if it's right back in the belpaire firebox, which puts it right at the limit of connectivity to the shaft adapter. This may be moot with some CA as it's a very tight fit.
  • For a groove/bar clutch, I could use 1.5mm rod in the worm with a slot, and grind the motor shaft down to a flat. Maybe this is the best solution?
  • I could also mill either the top of the boiler to bring the hanazono forward, or more drastically I could mill the inside faces of the tanks to fit the association can motor in there (or the hanazono horizontally).
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Jim, I really appreciate all your help on this one - thank you.  I will fit the idler gear and take it from there.

 

The following is a semi-ramble so feel free to ignore but it helps me get my thoughts in order:

  • My initial hope was that I could keep the Farish body mostly intact other than some small aesthetic tweaks on the outside - but it looks like I will have to mill away the underside of the splashers to fit my 9.5mm wheels at least.
  • The hanazono motor only fits if it's right back in the belpaire firebox, which puts it right at the limit of connectivity to the shaft adapter. This may be moot with some CA as it's a very tight fit.
  • For a groove/bar clutch, I could use 1.5mm rod in the worm with a slot, and grind the motor shaft down to a flat. Maybe this is the best solution?
  • I could also mill either the top of the boiler to bring the hanazono forward, or more drastically I could mill the inside faces of the tanks to fit the association can motor in there (or the hanazono horizontally).

 

 

William,

 

You could try one of these motors;

 

https://tramfabriek.nl/motors.html

 

which should avoid the need to remove chunks of the tanks/cab.

 

There are also some 3d printed motor mounts for circular motors in Shop 3 (although this is now shut until late February).

 

Andy

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thanks Andy, I'm definitely going to try that going forward - for now the dog clutch adds enough length that no cutting of the main body is required, although I will still have to do something about the underside of the splashers/tanks because my wheels just don't fit.

 

Today's hour or so saw me re-fitting the idler gear. There was a tiny bit of binding and I have found (thanks to Justin1985 pointing it out as a possible source of trouble) that the centre axle muff had migrated towards one side, which meant the gears were right up against each other with no clearance at all. A bit of shoving and the quartering was maintained and the muff moved to a more central position. I really need to find a safe way to separate things in 2mm though,  a mini gear puller and some expanding pliers?

 

I used a file to notch the 1.5mm axle steel and then a piercing saw to create a slot, and used a big file on the motor shaft to create the corresponding flat. Here it is with the motor temporarily fitted so I can see how it runs:

 

m4IEl1z.jpg

 

EDIT: I think we can all agree that painting it was a mistake :)

Edited by Lacathedrale
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I think you will need to get the two shafts aligned more accurately for final fixing.

On my Terriers, I used some Milliput to form the motor mounts. This worked quite well, although on my first attempt, the motor sunk a little under its own weight before the Milliput hardened, so I had to remove it and do it again with some tissue paper to keep the gears gapped while it hardened. On my second one, I had to remove the motor again later, for some reason, and just superglued it back to the Milliput mount.

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Oh I don't disagree at all, literally just placed in there - you can see the little plasticard wedge underneath has risen up, which has caused the shafts to be misaligned on the other side. Good idea about tissue paper I will absolutely do that. Milliput is probably a safer option than araldite!

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I thought I’d pitch in and show you my poor 08 chassis which is at a similar stage. I’ve had the wheels off and on so many times, bent the frames and basically bodged it up so much. I’ve been trying to get the quartering sorted, but the axles fit so loosely now in the muffs that they rotate independently. I’m just debating whether to order new muffs or risk a dab of glue. In fact I’m debating whether to by a whole be etch and start again!

 

Keep up, we’ll both get there eventually!

 

Cheers

John

post-18885-0-22106300-1547229129_thumb.jpeg

post-18885-0-32882300-1547229145_thumb.jpeg

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Hi John, as you may have gathered from the thread I'm absolutely no expert but watching the association's 4F chassis clinic on youtube it seems that opening out the muffs and having smooth rotation to easy quartering, finalised with a dab of superglue in the airhole is absolutely a valid method of setting the wheels up? Much like tramfabriek motors and the other alternates that have surfaced as part of this discussion, I will try them all at some point :) Can you speak a bit more about your '08 test stand' ?

 

I tried to settle the motor into milliput but (unsurprisingly) it didn't hold.  I re-did it with a sled made in-situ - 0.5mm plasticard ontop of the chassis spacer tabs, with a 1mm backstop and two wedged shaped cutouts to hold the motor into alignment:

 

27VOHf8.jpg

 

The motor isn't fixed in place, and I'm trying to think of a way to do that which doesn't involve aralditing in. If I hold it gently I can rotate the shaft with pin vise and all works as one would expect. Unfortunately, i think this is where progress must halt for a little while as I don't have a plain 12v controller now, as I have sold my 'trainset' stuff. 9v battery/potentiometer/enclosure is en-route but will be a few days.

 

EDIT: holy moley, what's happening with the shaft bearing on the right hand side?!

Edited by Lacathedrale
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William,

You might like to try using a Sellotape "Sticky Fixer", or similar. These are double-sided self-adhesive foam pads about 1.5mm thick. They are sufficiently tenacious to retain the motor, electrically insulating, easily cut to size, conform to irregular shapes, slightly compressible and removable if required.

(See article #67 in my Ashburton and Totnes thread.)

Best wishes,

John

Edited by JohnBS
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Any size of battery, 1.5v upwards, should be enough to do a basic motor test/does it move/turn-the-wheels etc. I now seat motors into plasticard mounts as you have, either using d/s tape to secure them, or just a flood of glue. Often I make up a box around the motor afterwards as belt & braces.

 

Izzy

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Thanks John, Izzy -  I went back after the above post and the motor was very well aligned so I just added a couple of dabs of superglue - the theory being that I can 'snap' it off if I need to. I fixed the bearing and suddenly my clutch started to slip, so a dot of glue on there too and it's all running smoothly again.

 

One thing I wasn't looking forward to, was trying to solder the crankpin washers, but (despite losing MANY) it all went relatively smoothly. I initially used rizla paper soaked in oil between the washer and the wheel boss, but I found that it basically just evaporates at the drop of a hat and my first joint make it all soldered together. Judicious use of flux, copper mesh tape and gentle easing released it all and so for the remaining wheels I used some laminated paper from a flyer - it worked perfectly and only one washer ended up slightly further out than I would have hoped. I know that it's possible to use (i.e. Nick Mitchell's jubilee build) but I'm not get confident enough to be able to do the soldering in one brief touch,

 

The second piece of work I wasn't looking forward to was milling out the inside of the front splashers. Clearly if I'd done more research I would have known that the 9mm wheels are recommended for the GF Jinty but I wanted something bigger, so went with 9.5mm and thus have had to mill out the splashers. It was getting dangerously thin so had to pack the chassis out using plasticard shims by 1mm. Really not ideal, but I'll know for next time. I used a dremel with a milling attachment to get as much done as possible. Similarly for next time, I will try NOT to lose both the sanding boxes and brake shoes, both of which have been eaten by the carpet monster (if anyone has spares, I would gladly take them off your hands for a few pounds!).

 

The previous owner of this loco painted the tank sides black and added some decals. The middle came off easily but the rest of it is a right pig's ear.  Anyway, I thought it would be nice to pose the loco as it stands now, it will only ever be a sophomore effort I think, there have been way too many mistakes, but it's starting to look nice:

 

IlCBYwu.jpg

 

There is clearly alot of visual stuff to do - finish stripping the tank sides, fitting handrails at minimum - but also a new chimney/dome/buffers (if the mechanicals work nicely - not going to put more money into it if not!) and figuring out what to do about the missing sandbox/brake shoes.

Edited by Lacathedrale
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The original Farish Jinty has a decent chimney and pointy dome, whilst the newer version has a decent dome and a poor chimney. I’d leave the chimney.

 

One thing to consider when setting up a chassis is to have slightly loose muffs that allow you to check that everything is going to run OK and then to use the definitive muffs that are a tight fit for final assembly.

 

Tim

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Hi John, as you may have gathered from the thread I'm absolutely no expert but watching the association's 4F chassis clinic on youtube it seems that opening out the muffs and having smooth rotation to easy quartering, finalised with a dab of superglue in the airhole is absolutely a valid method of setting the wheels up? Much like tramfabriek motors and the other alternates that have surfaced as part of this discussion, I will try them all at some point :) Can you speak a bit more about your '08 test stand' ?

 

I tried to settle the motor into milliput but (unsurprisingly) it didn't hold. I re-did it with a sled made in-situ...!

Hi William, no me neither, but I think it’s good that we lesser mortals share our trials and errors on here to show that not everyone on here is a genius! Yes I’m plucking up the courage to try a dab of glue in the muffs, maybe 5 minute epoxy would be better to give me time to tune the quartering. The glue would need to go in on the stub axles, I don’t think I can get enough superglue into the air vent.

 

My test stand is a grandly named wooden lash up to let me run the assembly on a 9v battery with the wheels off the floor, a spike from a cocktail stick goes through one of the screw holes to locate the chassis, the 2 at the side hold it laterally and the other end just rests on the diving board like scrub at the other end.

 

I have my motor on a pice of pcb that screws into the chassis,but I think a miliput saddle AND glue may be a good direction for the final positioning. It is, as you say, a matter of trying until something works....

 

You seem to be progressing well though, keep it up,

 

Cheers

 

John

Edited by John57sharp
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Hi William, no me neither, but I think it’s good that we lesser mortals share our trials and errors on here to show that not everyone on here is a genius! Yes I’m plucking up the courage to try a dab of glue in the muffs, maybe 5 minute epoxy would be better to give me time to tune the quartering. The glue would need to go in on the stub axles, I don’t think I can get enough superglue into the air vent.

 

My test stand is a grandly named wooden lash up to let me run the assembly on a 9v battery with the wheels off the floor, a spike from a cocktail stick goes through one of the screw holes to locate the chassis, the 2 at the side hold it laterally and the other end just rests on the diving board like scrub at the other end.

 

I have my motor on a pice of pcb that screws into the chassis,but I think a miliput saddle AND glue may be a good direction for the final positioning. It is, as you say, a matter of trying until something works....

 

You seem to be progressing well though, keep it up,

 

Cheers

 

John

I'm not a fan of the 'axle tight in the muff' approach because of the difficulty in releasing the wheels after fitting, if so desired. I prefer to ream the muffs until the axles are a snug to firm fit so that the wheels are held in place when you quarter them. I also find it useful to file two flats along the length of the muffs, opposite each other. This then makes it easier to drill two 1mm holes about 2mm either side of centre, right through the muffs. These holes should be big enough to drop some superglue in once the wheels are quartered. With flats on the muffs its also easier to grip the muffs with pliers and twist the wheels out of them if needed. 

 

Hopefully you will be able to see this in this pic, the middle two axles especially.

 

post-12813-0-96958400-1547379674_thumb.jpg

 

I usually epoxy motors in place. The slow setting types give you plenty of time to make small adjustments to the motor position. I don't think I've ever had a motor come loose, with this method. Life is easier if you are fixing the motor to a separate saddle as presumably the mesh can be adjusted once the glue is set. 

 

Nig H

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Thank you all for the advice - I think I will definitely try muffs loosened out enough to hold the wheels for quartering but not hard enough to stop them being removed.

 

I managed to find a 9v battery so hooked the chassis up and holy moley, it only bloody works doesn't it?

 

 

After speak to Jerry at Stevenage today, I think it makes sense to do what I can with this without going too nuts, and then strip out the components and rebuild with a 'fresh' chassis at a later date with all the lessons learned.

 

Who needs zen gardens when you have 2mm loco building?

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On one chassis where I was having some problems with old style ebonite muffs gripping the axles, I drilled through the muff and axle together in-situ and inserted a piece of wire covered in glue. They're not going anywhere after that!

 

Mark

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