admiles Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 Meanwhile in the real world! You dont know how duty of care and responsibility actually works do you? Serious question here, how does duty of care and responsibility stand up with leaving passengers overnight (13 hours I believe) on an unheated train stack up? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieB Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 Presumably no different from trains without toilets. Not so long back there was an ATOC requirement (but not a legal requirement) that toilets had to be provided on trains with a journey to me longer than 30 minutes. This is now amended to read that toilets are not required on metro style services but should be considered for longer journeys on such trains. Presumably the change was made to accommodate the halfwits at TfL who have designed the Crossrail trains without toilets despite the fact they will have journey times in excess of 30 minutes, in fact in our specific case the end to end journey time between here and London will be 70 minutes+ although our 12 minute journey duration connecting branch train will have toilets. I suspect that the lack of facilities and open through carriage design is a response to perceived threats from terrorism. There are plenty of journeys in the TfL catchment already - Underground, Overground (Wombling free?) that are in excess of 30 minutes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bimble Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 Would the journey you were making be 'life or death' or do you include yourself in the 'I am important so will ignore the warnings' brigade? As you state, if a train driver, Guard or signalman etc doesnt get to work then 100s/1000s of people wont be able to make their very important journeys would they, if some bloke in an office (railway or otherwise) doesnt make it in then so what, I went to work every day last week (less than a 10 minute car journey all on main roads) and ended up stuck in Penzance on one occasion, if I hadnt have got to work that day (night actually) then 150 people (obviously all making essential life or death journeys) would have been stuck. While there is no excuse for these passengers being stuck for as long as they were (I am sure we will get the usual 'lessons will be learned' bolleaux) the simple fact is if they had listened to the warnings in the first place they wouldnt have been on the train and got stuck, and I have a feeling next time the railway simply wont run passenger trains, they might run ECS trains to try and keep lines clear (and get all the 'why are they running trains but not carrying passengers' headlines) at least they would only have to worry about the driver if a train gets stuck. Would the journeys that the railway staff took to get to work to run a service be deemed "life or death" then...?? Because if no-one is supposed to be travelling, what would be the point of putting a service on? There is no money in running empty trains up and down the track because everyone is supposed to be staying at home. If it is acceptable for you to go into work, why is it not acceptable for me to go into work? I wouldn't consider the majority of railway staff to be a "life or death" service* (unlike let's say, the emergency services), so in theory they should all of stayed at home... at which point there's no train service for people to take, no packed passenger train to break down, no stranded passengers, etc... if a Train Company is going to provide a service, you can't then blame the passengers for making use of that service. Don't want people to travel... don't run the trains. * - and I'm including myself there** ** - though I actually did stay home on the Thur... mostly because I'd finished my work the day before so didn't have anything that needed doing Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 Well whatever the rights and wrongs of it, I for one am grateful to the operational staff who turned up and ran the services which they did, and helped rescue those who needed rescuing - many people I know were traveling over the affected period and (though their journeys were not ones I would have attempted myself) they'd have been rather stuck. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 (edited) What concerns me with incidents such as this - and I may be barking up a wrong tree - is whether it shows a trend towards replacement of experienced operational managers with "management by flowcharts", as has been seen in other industries. There is a lot of good, experience-based comment here. It comes from those who cut their teeth on a railway that had a good complement of staff who had learned from many years of experience - passing on the benefit of that knowledge to those who came after. They learned - for better or for worse - what can be done practically in a crisis. Forgive me for pointing out that many of those are now retired from the railway, in many cases taking that expertise with them. Indeed and the right equipment is no longer in service or available - these days it is just easier to capitulate and choose not to run a service - just as SWR did and leave those of us who have NO CHOICE but to get to work right in the lurch- they couldn't even manage to run the reduced service they had planned ............... THAT IS shite service of the lowest order. I worked for BR and in 82 & 86 & 89 the snow was worst than this latest "dusting" by comparison and we manage to run a service cos we had the right infrastructure and the right trains that could work with each other and not fall over at the slight sign of adverse weather Edited March 7, 2018 by Southernman46 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 (edited) Serious question here, how does duty of care and responsibility stand up with leaving passengers overnight (13 hours I believe) on an unheated train stack up? Give me the available alternatives and I will tell you! In most cases it will be the least worst option, there certainly wont be a good option. Edit- I wont because I am out of this thread, far too many pedantic posts for my blood pressure to take! Edited March 7, 2018 by royaloak 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 (edited) Well whatever the rights and wrongs of it, I for one am grateful to the operational staff who turned up and ran the services which they did, and helped rescue those who needed rescuing - many people I know were traveling over the affected period and (though their journeys were not ones I would have attempted myself) they'd have been rather stuck. With the tone of some of the posters on this thread the next time the advice is to stay at home I will do just that despite living within 2 miles of my sign on point! As for some of the other posters, I give up, I am trying to explain but if people cant/wont see that somebody tasked with trying to get people from A to B has a higher requirement to get to work than somebody in a shop or office etc then I am wasting my time, it looks like next week will be the next test so good luck everyone, I will be at home watching daytime television, yuck! It isnt a question of being acceptable but more a question of necessity, do you need to go to the office, I mean really need, or do you want to go to the office? Edit- For me to get to and from work I have to rely on myself, nobody else,that is a big difference to having to catch a train or bus! Edited March 7, 2018 by royaloak 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 There are some very polarised opinions on this thread. If a train company issues an advisory not to travel, it's just advice... it's not an order enforcable by law. I needed to make a journey from Sheringham to Norwich last Wednesday but I couldn't because trains had been suspended. Fair enough. Had they not been suspended, I would have taken my chances because the journey was important. Only I know that... it's no-one else's business to decide the importance of my jouney on my behalf and I take great exception to the "selfish tw@t" comments. Some posters obviously consider me a selfish tw@t because I needed to be somewhere. Nice... If a train company really needs people not to travel - take a leaf out of Greater Anglia's policy on rural routes - don't run trains. Simple. If trains are running (and suburban London services are a completely different kettle of fish in comparison to non-London rural routes), why moan that people might actually use them? My old mum used to say "engage your brain before speaking". Replace "speaking" with "typing" and it's good advice for this thread. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Not Captain Kernow Posted March 7, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 7, 2018 An interesting take on it by one of the stranded passengers http://buzzsteam.com/2018/03/04/southeastern-commuter-train-stuck-at-lewisham/ There is some contradiction - if the trains were so jam packed how were people also able to move about? Also interesting to note the Driver wanted to evacuate but was overruled by Control. Also clear things were being tried to get things moving again, but they probably spent far too long making these attempts instead of organising the evacuation. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Not Captain Kernow Posted March 7, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 7, 2018 For information, see how this evacuation at Bedford is achieved. In particular, note how may staff are required to line the safe route to ensure nobody strays from safety, and this is in daylight and good weather! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted March 7, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 7, 2018 Nobody on this board knows what reasons people on the train had for travelling. Some people probably were making journey's that could have been avoided with no great loss to anybody or anything, it is also quite possible that the passengers included people in front line emergency service and medical roles whose journey's were important and all sorts of other potential passengers who did need to travel if it was possible. There are plenty of people whose jobs are important or personal circumstances that do mean it is not so easy to just not travel. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 Would the journeys that the railway staff took to get to work to run a service be deemed "life or death" then...?? Because if no-one is supposed to be travelling, what would be the point of putting a service on? There is no money in running empty trains up and down the track because everyone is supposed to be staying at home. If it is acceptable for you to go into work, why is it not acceptable for me to go into work? I wouldn't consider the majority of railway staff to be a "life or death" service* (unlike let's say, the emergency services), so in theory they should all of stayed at home... at which point there's no train service for people to take, no packed passenger train to break down, no stranded passengers, etc... if a Train Company is going to provide a service, you can't then blame the passengers for making use of that service. Don't want people to travel... don't run the trains. * - and I'm including myself there** ** - though I actually did stay home on the Thur... mostly because I'd finished my work the day before so didn't have anything that needed doing Highly logical, but completely misses the point. Is this a "service" or just a "product". If the latter, no argument with you. But many still consider it to be the former. There is no point getting into debate over the worthiness of individual travel needs, but I would point out, from my knowledge of having lived and worked there in the past, that many, many medical, emergency services, transport, utilities and other "essential" support workers and professionals commute from North Kent and the Medway to work in London, because they could not otherwise possibly afford to live there. Close the roads and railways completely, then see what happens. You might get away with it for one day, but that's about it. Many have also claimed that the weather forecasts should guide decisions. Indeed they should, but only when they can get it much more accurate than they have. I was sitting in the garden sunning myself at Hebden Bridge, when the Met had, only a few hours previously, stated I would be sitting in a couple of inches of snow. Imagine the public and political reactions if Northern and Trans-Pennine had taken your advice and suspended all services on the strength of that. It is not just the UK that suffers from this problem. Here in France, tempests, floods, hurricanes and swarms of locusts were predicted down our side of the Pentangle only today. I put my washing out regardless, and it dried, although I have had to shake out a number of large insects.... 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted March 7, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 7, 2018 When I first came to London I worked in an combined heat and power plant that supplied one of the major London hospitals, sheltered housing, and an old peoples home (as well as various financial institutions and government agencies where we made our money), although not emergency workers the guys at the plant were doing an important job and would have made every effort to get to/from work last week. If the plug is pulled on the electrical connections it shouldn't be a big deal assuming the mains connection is OK, the heat is a different matter as some of the heat customers had no alternative heating supply or building heating. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastglosmog Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 There is only one absolutely essential job - the delivery driver who brings the catfood to my local shop. I am glad to say he did not fail us last week. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted March 7, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 7, 2018 I once saw an old lady squat down and squeeze out a curler in the aisle of an Air France A340, at least things haven't got that bad on our trains (yet). I felt sorry for this old dear, it was a flight from Jakarta to Europe and this woman looked to be 80 odd and quite clearly had never been on a plane before and didn't know they come fitted out with bogs. The poor old dear must have been clenching and clenching until she could clench no more and had to let rip. The stewardesses were very good about it all. And I sailed with an AB who got the sack when BA complained to P&O about him hosing down the cabin door when he took offence to that fact that the bogs were all occupied. No, airlines are definitely the ones to avoid for the feint hearted who are of a delicate disposition when it comes to bowel movements in public. Mind you I saw a few things on ships too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted March 7, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 7, 2018 In the good old days one of the first jobs when a ship came out of dry dock was to flush out the tank tops and bilges, dock workers were hardy types who saw no reason to waste time and shirk by going to the bog when there were perfectly good tank tops and bilges to do their business into. Happy days. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fozzy280472 Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 Some posters seem to be under the impression that the majority of people travelling in last week's disruption were doing so for a bit of fun , this assumption couldn't be further than the truth, the fact Is for a whole lot of commuters if you don't get in you can very easily find yourself on the way down the road or facing disciplinary action or at best unpaid . Yes it is that bad . My wife was expected to be in regardless of weather , didn't matter how long it took just get in. I'm not sure a railway company advisory stating "don't travel" is really going to cut it as an absentee excuse. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arun Sharma Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 In the good old days one of the first jobs when a ship came out of dry dock was to flush out the tank tops and bilges, dock workers were hardy types who saw no reason to waste time and shirk by going to the bog when there were perfectly good tank tops and bilges to do their business into. Happy days. Not just in far off bygone days - I sailed on a few ships refitted in CL in Birkenhead and H&W where the fresh water tanks were found to have condoms et al floating in them. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted March 8, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 8, 2018 Some posters seem to be under the impression that the majority of people travelling in last week's disruption were doing so for a bit of fun , this assumption couldn't be further than the truth, the fact Is for a whole lot of commuters if you don't get in you can very easily find yourself on the way down the road or facing disciplinary action or at best unpaid . Yes it is that bad . My wife was expected to be in regardless of weather , didn't matter how long it took just get in. I'm not sure a railway company advisory stating "don't travel" is really going to cut it as an absentee excuse. You've already stated 'just get in, even if late', so the boss is willing to conceede something. Sometimes people can't get in through no fault of their own. If a key road is blocked and you are caught past the last exit, what can you do? That is nowhere near the same as 'sorry, I ran out of fuel'. If there were warnings about NOT travelling around, I would seriously consider the available options, including of course leaving much earlier. No boss owns my life and limb. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken.W Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 Serious question here, how does duty of care and responsibility stand up with leaving passengers overnight (13 hours I believe) on an unheated train stack up? Because, in a raging blizzard in the middle of nowhere - this one was in the country not a major city - it was still the safest (or only) place to be. In the same region, there was hundreds trapped in vehicles on the Motorway, so what chance of getting any alternative transport anywhere near where the train was, or the numbers of staff needed for a safe evacuation? They were evacuated, when a rescue train was able to get through to them Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted March 8, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 8, 2018 (edited) I am still confused how all these people stuck on trains needed to make these important journeys despite being told not too? Every incident is a chain of events and if everyone had taken note of the first link in the train (do not travel) then they wouldnt have been stuck on the train would they, why is everyone ignoring the fact that very few of them would have needed to go to work that day! Because of this perhaps. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-43272396 It's all very well telling folk not to travel but in an age where employment has becomd increasingly transient it's hardly surprising that people feel under pressure to come in to work anyway. If we really want to make a difference there needs to be a way of garunteeing that people will not be left with financial issues nor face harm with respect to their employment prospects. Thanks to strong trade Unions and the nature of the railway industry most, are spared the worst effects of penny pinching bosses (though they do still exsist with respect to things like 'outsourced' train cleaning etc). Those working in the wider world are not so fortunate.... Edited March 8, 2018 by phil-b259 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken.W Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 (edited) An interesting take on it by one of the stranded passengers http://buzzsteam.com/2018/03/04/southeastern-commuter-train-stuck-at-lewisham/ There is some contradiction - if the trains were so jam packed how were people also able to move about? Also interesting to note the Driver wanted to evacuate but was overruled by Control. Also clear things were being tried to get things moving again, but they probably spent far too long making these attempts instead of organising the evacuation. An interesting piece, and more information than we've had on this incident previously. It's notable that the passengers involved, including even those who attempted to leave the train and apparently soon returned on board, quickly realised that conditions were too hazardous for them to attempt leaving unaided, for the very reasons that several on here have been trying to get through to those saying passengers should have self evacuated but have been unwilling or unable to take in. Also notable is the number of additional personnel necessary for the evacuation, Police, NR staff, and the LFB being called in. In the conditions, how long did it take all these to get to site, and what else had they been involved in previously - we now also know there were also other trains in the same situation. The driver apparently wanted to evacuate and was overuled, but we don't know his plan or why it was refused - something we'll probably have to wait for the inquiry for. Regarding the guideline document referenced earlier. Evacuation, it recommends, should commence after an hour. In this case it took longer than that to become apparent attempts to get the train ahead moving (which would have been the quickest and safest way) had failed - so following the guidelines if they had succeeded in getting it moving they'd have found the passengers already being evacuated? And again, how would they have got the required personnel there in that time? In most cases of a simple train failure in good conditions, it usually takes longer than that to establish it is failed and going to be unable to proceed, and get the assisting engine out to it. So the 'Thunderbird' arrives to find passengers already being evacuated? The document then recommends the evacuation is completed by two hours (so done in an hour), yet later on, it estimates the time taken to evacuate a fully loaded train (which this was) as being four hours! This corresponds with the one such incident I've attended (on the Thunderbird) where it took over half an hour to evacuate the approx 30 passengers - between two trains both with Driver, Guard, and Catering Crew, as well as several additional staff attending Edited March 8, 2018 by Ken.W 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trog Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 Just a thought but if the proceeding train has failed after pulling out of the station but before clearing the section, could the driver of the following train not have been advised to pass the protecting signal at danger and proceed the ~100yrds to the station at extreme caution before the power was turned off to allow work on the proceeding train, so avoiding the whole sorry saga. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fozzy280472 Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 You've already stated 'just get in, even if late', so the boss is willing to conceede something. Sometimes people can't get in through no fault of their own. If a key road is blocked and you are caught past the last exit, what can you do? That is nowhere near the same as 'sorry, I ran out of fuel'. If there were warnings about NOT travelling around, I would seriously consider the available options, including of course leaving much earlier. No boss owns my life and limb. Fair point, although my comments were in respect to travelling on the railways and not driving in by road which is an altogether different scenario. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted March 8, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 8, 2018 (edited) Not just in far off bygone days - I sailed on a few ships refitted in CL in Birkenhead and H&W where the fresh water tanks were found to have condoms et al floating in them. Worst I saw was coming out of A&P Wallsend on the Tyne. Although, in Germany it was normal to find beer bottle everywhere, in those days it would appear having a few beers whilst you worked was quite acceptable in German ship yards. We had some major engine work done by MAN in Hamburg once and there were quite a few empties left in the crankcase after they finished. Edited March 8, 2018 by jjb1970 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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