Identifying miscellaneous tank engines

[RedGemAlchemist]

I have a question to ask the board, seeing as I apparently do not have as much knowledge of vintage 00 as I thought. I was scouring the vastness of eBay a few days ago while looking for parts for my usual RTRbashing adventures and came across this chunky burgundy tank engine shell amongst a job lot of 00 gauge body shells.

I am relatively knowledgeable in old Triang, Wrenn and Hornby but am not familiar with this tank engine. I did not purchase said lot (choosing instead to buy four Triang blood-and-custards to modify into workable coaches), but the question nagged at me for a bit so I posed the conundrum of its origins to the regulars on my workbench thread. Sandhole suggested it was maybe a bash of several shells but I am not totally convinced, to me it looks too clean. So I ask you for a second opinion, and maybe even a positive identification if you can. I will, however, certainly be buying it next time should I see this thing again.

Edited March 10, 2018 by RedGemAlchemist

[PatB]

That looks suspiciously like Nellie's cab and side tanks, with bits of a second cab inserted in order to make it look really awkward. The boiler and smokebox look too big in diameter for Nellie so may have been donated by something else (Triang 3F?). I'm pretty sure it's a bash based on Triang parts anyway.

[RedGemAlchemist]

That looks suspiciously like Nellie's cab and side tanks, with bits of a second cab inserted in order to make it look really awkward. The boiler and smokebox look too big in diameter for Nellie so may have been donated by something else (Triang 3F?). I'm pretty sure it's a bash based on Triang parts anyway.

Hmm. Suppose he might have been correct after all. If you're reading this Sandhole, sorry mate for doubting you. Still was good to get a second opinion. Either way it's an interesting looking beast. Would make for an interesting goods tank if I can get my hands on it; maybe find an 0-6-0 chassis or maybe a 0-8-0 or even a small 0-10-0 as described on my workbench to slap under it. Assuming it's still on eBay. Oh, the perfect vision of hindsight!

Edited March 4, 2018 by RedGemAlchemist

[kevinlms]

That looks suspiciously like Nellie's cab and side tanks, with bits of a second cab inserted in order to make it look really awkward. The boiler and smokebox look too big in diameter for Nellie so may have been donated by something else (Triang 3F?). I'm pretty sure it's a bash based on Triang parts anyway.

Well, there is a Lima Crab tender top there, so perhaps that loco body is NOT limited to body sections from the Tri-ang range? Could it contain bits of the Lima H0 Crab, especially the front?

[Nearholmer]

HD starter set loco, with the cab extended using bits of ‘Nellie’? Or a play raft starter set loco ditto? Mostly ‘nellie’, with an extended cab and lowering?

Edited March 4, 2018 by Nearholmer

[RedGemAlchemist]

Well, there is a Lima Crab tender top there, so perhaps that loco body is NOT limited to body sections from the Tri-ang range? Could it contain bits of the Lima H0 Crab, especially the front?

 

HD starter set loco, with the cab extended using bits of ‘Nellie’? Or a play raft starter set loco ditto? Mostly ‘nellie’, with an extended cab and lowering?

Hmm. All interesting suppositions. Sadly, as already noted, I do not actually have the model in question to analyse more closely.

 

 

AT LEAST NOT YET.

I have made it a bit of a mission to track down this locomotive again, purchase it and find out what it is. Also maybe use it for my own ends.

Edited March 4, 2018 by RedGemAlchemist

[PatB]

HD starter set loco, with the cab extended using bits of ‘Nellie’? Or a play raft starter set loco ditto? Mostly ‘nellie’, with an extended cab and lowering?

 

That's a thought. I keep forgetting that HD did an 0-4-0 starter loco. 

 

I think we have a winner. Note the moulded on pipe just ahead of the cab, amongst other similarities.

[LNWR18901910]

I have a question to ask the board, seeing as I apparently do not have as much knowledge of vintage 00 as I thought. I was scouring the vastness of eBay a few days ago while looking for parts for my usual RTRbashing adventures and came across this chunky burgundy tank engine shell amongst a job lot of 00 gauge body shells.

Unknown red tank engine.png

I am relatively knowledgeable in old Triang, Wrenn and Hornby but am not familiar with this tank engine. I did not purchase said lot (choosing instead to buy four Triang blood-and-custards to modify into workable coaches), but the question nagged at me for a bit so I posed the conundrum of its origins to the regulars on my workbench thread. Sandhole suggested it was maybe a bash of several shells but I am not totally convinced, to me it looks too clean. So I ask you for a second opinion, and maybe even a positive identification if you can. I will, however, certainly be buying it next time should I see this thing again.

Interesting. I'd say it was a freelance design based on Great Eastern or North Staffordshire design. Or, perhaps, it could be a Hudswell-Clarke or Manning Wardle type.

[Nearholmer]

It was the fat boiler that was the first clue; both HD and Playcraft starter locos had fat boilers, possibly to accommodate clockwork in some versions, as did some Triang locos (or saddle tank, for the same reason).

 

But now I’ve checked, the Playcraft one was more US/Continental.

Edited March 4, 2018 by Nearholmer

[RedGemAlchemist]

It was the fat boiler that was the first clue; both HD and Playcraft starter locos had fat boilers, possibly to accommodate clockwork in some versions, as did some Triang locos (or saddle tank, for the same reason).

 

But now I’ve checked, the Playcraft one was more US/Continental.

Wow. Yeah, kind of a beast of mixed heritage then it seems if your hypothesis is correct. Either way it's interesting. And now I want it for the KLR. 

Edited March 4, 2018 by RedGemAlchemist

[RedGemAlchemist]

That's a thought. I keep forgetting that HD did an 0-4-0 starter loco. 

 

I think we have a winner. Note the moulded on pipe just ahead of the cab, amongst other similarities.

By Jove, I think he's got it! A real vintage locomotive then. Makes it even more interesting, and now I know what I'm looking for! 

[hayfield]

Wow. Yeah, kind of a beast of mixed heritage then it seems if your hypothesis is correct. Either way it's interesting. And now I want it for the KLR. 

 

 

Would be far easier to make your own, to me the cab looks far too big for a small loco. would have been better giving it a bigger bunker and reducing the length of the cab

[PatB]

Somebody went to the trouble of adding an air brake pump to the side of the smokebox, so presumably, whatever it was meant to represent was from an air braked railway.

[RedGemAlchemist]

Would be far easier to make your own, to me the cab looks far too big for a small loco. would have been better giving it a bigger bunker and reducing the length of the cab

Well (UPDATE) I've just gone back and bought it now (found I had a bit of cash to spare), so I will see what I can do. Besides, I want it to be big.

 

Somebody went to the trouble of adding an air brake pump to the side of the smokebox, so presumably, whatever it was meant to represent was from an air braked railway.

 Hmm, yes. Bit odd that. Then again my own Wild Rover also has a Westinghouse pump so there

Edited March 4, 2018 by RedGemAlchemist

[sem34090]

I know what it is sir!

 

It could be either one of two, essentially identical locos:

 

1.) The aforementioned Hornby Dublo starter set 0-4-0T, I believe clockwork-powered and with a plastic bodyshell, though I think I need to be corrected on that last point.

 

2.) A push-along Dinky Toys (So, same as HD essentially) version of the same loco, fitted with two almost Bulleid-Pattern driving wheels (no rods) at a spacing to allow it on 00 track, but with wheel treads to make a traction engine blush! My Dad has/had one, which he repainted from its blue livery as a child into his rough approximation of BR black, lined in red, and with the numbers from an Airfix Black Five plastered on the sides!

 

To my eye it looks to be based on an ex-GER Loco (Edit: Dinky clearly thought so too, having found an image!), possibly an N7, which would tie in nicely with the Westinghouse equipment (the GER being an Air-Braked railway) on the side of the smokebox. It appears to have had outside steam pipes added by HD/Dinky due to the outside cylinders of the 0-4-0 chassis. Obviously it is heavily shortened, but I hope the attached images show my point:

http://images.vectis.co.uk/44/5644_l.jpg

Currently for sale on Ebay! If you want one then £6.00 is the buy it now price.

https://www.ebay.ie/itm/VINTAGE-DINKY-TOYS-0-4-0-TANK-ENGINE-FOR-MINOR-RESTORATION-/232664477486?hash=item362be22f2e

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/Stratford_Locomotive_Depot_LNER_Gresley_N3-3_0-6-2T_geograph-2886808-by-Ben-Brooksbank.jpg

[sem34090]

It seems that Dinky thought it was this: http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/locomotivesandrollingstock/CollectionItem?objid=1975-7003&pageNo=9

It seems to have a similar cab arrangement to the HD/Dinky model, so perhaps it is a composite of a few GER designs shortened to fit the chassis?

[Steamport Southport]

Obviously it's meant to be Bulleid's long lost design for a small shunting tank.

 

 

To be honest it looks like a hybrid between an R1 and a C14 (which is what Nellie, Polly, etc. was based on). Both of which were in the Hornby Dublo range.

 

I'm jealous as I only had this one but without the cars and level crossing. Very nice, but even as a child I knew it was "foreign". 

 

http://tri-angman.co.uk/shop/?wpsc-product=Hornby-r533-clockwork-super-set-excellent-boxed-condition

 

 

Jason

[Il Grifone]

Obviously the Dublo tank, but she has suffered some tampering with her rear end. Originally a 2 rail electric 0-4-0T with a cheap and nasty motor* and a plastic body. Rather overdetailed for a cheap starter loco IMHO. Later, as stated, she reappeared as a Dinky Toy (less motor and connecting rods) in zinc alloy together with die cast versions of Dublo and Acho (IIRC) wagons.

She appears inspired by the 0 gauge Hornby locomotives or possibly this pre-war Dinky:-

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VINTAGE-DINKY-TOYS-MODEL-No-21a-0-6-0T-TANK-LOCOMOTIVE-RARE-/401459802354

 

There's a remotored one here (modern Hornby chassis).

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/77295-die-cast-play-loco/

 

And one for sale

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DINKY-TOYS-784-GER-GOODS-TRAIN-SET-/232686539236

 

The Playcraft locomotive is supposed to be something French (she's marked SNCF IIRC), as one would expect from a Jouef product. This came in both clockwork and electric versions.

 

* Designed for a 200 hour lifetime and not repairable.

Edited March 6, 2018 by Il Grifone

[Wickham Green]

Obviously it's meant to be Bulleid's long lost design for a small shunting tank.

 

 

To be honest it looks like a hybrid between an R1 and a C14 (which is what Nellie, Polly, etc. was based on). Both of which were in the Hornby Dublo range.

 

I'm jealous as I only had this one but without the cars and level crossing. Very nice, but even as a child I knew it was "foreign". 

 

http://tri-angman.co.uk/shop/?wpsc-product=Hornby-r533-clockwork-super-set-excellent-boxed-condition

 

 

Jason

Nellie, Polly and their sisters were Kentish Maids, of course, rather than Liver Birds !

Edited March 6, 2018 by Wickham Green

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

With the outside cylinders it rather suggests Stratford's magnum opus in the 0-4-0T format, the improbable brick of a locomotive that was classed Y4 by the LNER, (pronounced with a rising tone to emphasise the humour...).

 

https://www.lner.info/locos/Y/y4.php

[RedGemAlchemist]

With the outside cylinders it rather suggests Stratford's magnum opus in the 0-4-0T format, the improbable brick of a locomotive that was classed Y4 by the LNER, (pronounced with a rising tone to emphasise the humour...).

 

https://www.lner.info/locos/Y/y4.php

Forgot how ungainly the Y4 was.

Right. Another question. Does anyone know how big its interior dimensions are? And if so, what is the chassis that would fit with the largest wheel arrangement? Want to make it into a chunky goods tank for my KLR freelance line.

[sem34090]

I'd never seen a Y4 until that point...

 

Ugly beast isn't it?

[Wickham Green]

Forgot how ungainly the Y4 was.

Right. Another question. Does anyone know how big its interior dimensions are? And if so, what is the chassis that would fit with the largest wheel arrangement? Want to make it into a chunky goods tank for my KLR freelance line.

I'd ( almost ) put money on the body having been stretched to fit one of the 'standard' 0-6-0 chassis - either Triang &/or Hornby or Wrenn..

[RedGemAlchemist]

I'd never seen a Y4 until that point...

 

Ugly beast isn't it?

That it certainly is.

 

I'd ( almost ) put money on the body having been stretched to fit one of the 'standard' 0-6-0 chassis - either Triang &/or Hornby or Wrenn..

Hmm. I was thinking of seeing if there's a small enough 0-8-0 chassis to fit. Make it seem like all the power from that massive boiler is going somewhere. 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

... what is the chassis that would fit with the largest wheel arrangement? Want to make it into a chunky goods tank for my KLR freelance line.

 Not a clue to the dimensions, but by eyeball I reckon a 45xx mechanism pruned of its pony trucks would go for an outside cylinder 0-6-0T. Fairly short wheelbase is required to accomodate the outside cylinders. Usefully that's also a fairly small boilered loco, so the mechanism is likely to be an easy fit for height. (We'll politely ignore axle positions that might not be ideally placed for the ashpan and other improbabilities.) The Porter 'USA tank' mechanism another possibility, but very unlikely to be as readily found at a low price s/h as the 45xx which is a long termer in OO RTR form.

 

... I was thinking of seeing if there's a small enough 0-8-0 chassis to fit. Make it seem like all the power from that massive boiler is going somewhere. 

 I would guess that an HO mechanism would be required to enable that. There are compact wheelbase North American consolidation model mechanisms that might do. Some years ago a friend found one such and I loaded it into a much modified Lima J50 bodyshell that he had grafted a Patriot parallel boiler into, for an end result that looked not entirely unlike* Thompson's Q1 0-8-0T.

 

*Correct number of wheels. looked like a Frankenloco.