Haddenham (Bucks) GW&GC Jt

[Joseph_Pestell]

I am studying Haddenham as a suitable modelling project. Not perhaps the most interesting station in the world, but quite compact for a mainline station. I have a few questions.

 

It has a rather simpler layout, fewer single slips and no double slips, than most stations on the GW&GC Joint. That makes me wonder about the operation of freight trains. Clearly easy to shunt a down freight train, but, with no crossover at the London end, running round the train to shunt would involve a wrong direction move on the Up Main. There appears to be (from SRS diagram) a shunt signal to allow this move but would it be regularly used? A lot of minor stations were only shunted by trains in the one direction. Clearly, the answer would probably be found in WTTs.

 

Similarly, from the WTT, did the Down pick up goods trains run to Woodford Halse or Banbury? Or both?

 

And where would the Up pick up goods have run to?

 

Finally, a discrepancy between Potts RH Clarke and the SRS about a catch point between the goods yard single slip and the Up Platform loop. Can anyone help with a clear photo?

 

I am looking at c1960 for the most interesting variety of locos and rolling stock.

Edited March 6, 2018 by Joseph_Pestell

[chrisf]

In the mornings, except on Sundays, a passenger train from Marylebone reversed at Hadenham, being allowed around 25 minutes to do so.  By the summer of 1961 dmus were in use.  Back in 1955 the formation was six non-corridor coaches with no first class.

 

Chris 

[vpetg]

Not quite answering any questions but:

in the 1953 WTT I found

Woodford 'F' 7.55 am

Haddenham 9.18 - 9.30

 

Woodford 'K' 6.45 am

Haddenham 9.38-9.54

 

Banbury 8.00 am 'K'

Haddenham 10.05 - 10.30

to OOC

 

Couldnt see any down working though.

 

In 1949 

Banbury 7.15 am only went as far as Brill

 

But 

Neasdon 2.45am

Haddenham 7.32 - 8.08am

Woodford

 

The station closed in 1963

 

Dont know anything about catch points but wouldnt the yard exit single slip protect the main lines there? Its not the platform loop at that point.

 

A bonus for me is that the SRS site allowed the Hadd PDF to download as it is missing on the CD I bought, so thanks for that!

 

Regards

 

Peter

[Joseph_Pestell]

 

Not quite answering any questions but:

in the 1953 WTT I found

Woodford 'F' 7.55 am

Haddenham 9.18 - 9.30

 

Woodford 'K' 6.45 am

Haddenham 9.38-9.54

 

Banbury 8.00 am 'K'

Haddenham 10.05 - 10.30

to OOC

 

Couldnt see any down working though.

 

In 1949 

Banbury 7.15 am only went as far as Brill

 

But 

Neasdon 2.45am

Haddenham 7.32 - 8.08am

Woodford

 

The station closed in 1963

 

Dont know anything about catch points but wouldnt the yard exit single slip protect the main lines there? Its not the platform loop at that point.

 

A bonus for me is that the SRS site allowed the Hadd PDF to download as it is missing on the CD I bought, so thanks for that!

 

Regards

 

Peter

 

 

Hi Peter.

 

On the contrary, you seem to have answered the question, even if in an unexpected way. Three up goods trains but no down. So they, or at least some, must indeed have run round using the Up Main. Except for any that were just conveying some light items. The goods shed was on the passenger platform and I suspect a lot of goods were unloaded there from a train sat on the loop.

 

As you say, it should be possible to interlock the north end of the yard single slip in such a way that a catch point would be superfluous. RH Clarke (not Potts as this is in Vol 1) makes that point himself yet insists that he has sources for there being a catch point.

Edited March 5, 2018 by Joseph_Pestell

[Joseph_Pestell]

In the mornings, except on Sundays, a passenger train from Marylebone reversed at Hadenham, being allowed around 25 minutes to do so.  By the summer of 1961 dmus were in use.  Back in 1955 the formation was six non-corridor coaches with no first class.

 

Chris 

 

That's a surprise! Although it does explain the presence of a shunt signal for which I could not otherwise see any purpose.

 

Certainly adds to the operational interest of the layout.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Another little thought for this project.

 

I have seen lots of photos, over the past twenty years or so, of LT trains being delivered via this route. But presumably this has always been the case. Do any of you know of any photos with tube stock being hauled over the GW&GC Joint in earlier times? It would be interesting to know both what the locomotives used would have been and also what sort of barrier vehicle.

[Ray H]

Another little thought for this project.

 

I have seen lots of photos, over the past twenty years or so, of LT trains being delivered via this route. But presumably this has always been the case. Do any of you know of any photos with tube stock being hauled over the GW&GC Joint in earlier times? It would be interesting to know both what the locomotives used would have been and also what sort of barrier vehicle.

Whilst the current round(s) of LUL stock may be being delivered to Neasden, it wasn't that long ago when all new stock was delivered to West Ruislip depot. This included sub-surface (i.e. not tube) stock which was then often run via North Acton & Ealing Broadway to the intended line of use having being tested on the Central line.

 

I can't recall how the District Line "D" stock was delivered although I suspect that the Central line's new signal control system may not have had provision for non-auto equipped rolling stock to use the line except under possession.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Indeed. But whether Neasden or West Ruislip, the trains would presumably arrive via the GW&GC Jt.

[Metr0Land]

Jubilee stock was routed Banbury, Princes Risborough (rev), Aylesbury (rev) Neasden. I believe A stock came the same way but can't confirm it.

 

25 300, Chalfont & Latimer, 02-03-85 by afc45014, on Flickr

[Joseph_Pestell]

I have in mind some EFE 1960/1962 stock.

Edited March 6, 2018 by Joseph_Pestell

[Ray H]

I have in mind some EFE 1960/1962 stock.

 

That was definitely delivered direct to West Ruislip although I don't know how it was routed on BR.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I am studying Haddenham as a suitable modelling project. Not perhaps the most interesting station in the world, but quite compact for a mainline station. I have a few questions.

 

It has a rather simpler layout, fewer single slips and no double slips, than most stations on the GW&GC Joint. That makes me wonder about the operation of freight trains. Clearly easy to shunt a down freight train, but, with no crossover at the London end, running round the train to shunt would involve a wrong direction move on the Up Main. There appears to be (from SRS diagram) a shunt signal to allow this move but would it be regularly used? A lot of minor stations were only shunted by trains in the one direction. Clearly, the answer would probably be found in WTTs.

 

Similarly, from the WTT, did the Down pick up goods trains run to Woodford Halse or Banbury? Or both?

 

And where would the Up pick up goods have run to?

 

Finally, a discrepancy between Potts RH Clarke and the SRS about a catch point between the goods yard single slip and the Up Platform loop. Can anyone help with a clear photo?

 

I am looking at c1960 for the most interesting variety of locos and rolling stock.

 

Having another look at the SRS diagram, I come to the conclusion that I have misread it (a bit fuzzy for my tired eyesight) and there is not a shunt signal that would allow the loco from an up freight train to run round via the Up Main. The shunt signal protects the Up Platform Line from the siding on the London side of the road bridge.

 

So how would these trains be shunted? Too far away, I think, from the signal box for a green flag from there.

[The Stationmaster]

The Summer 1938 GWR Service Timetable shows the 09.45 Acton - Banbury and the 14.40 Banbury - Old Oak Common to call at Haddenham on an 'as required' basis.  The Down working was allowed 5 minutes and the Up was allowed 6 minutes although in reality any work no doubt took as long as it took.

 

Shunting the Down train would of course have been very straightforward and I suspect that all the Up train did was put-off/pick-up in the siding off the Up Platform line which would give access to the sidings by pinchbarring any wagons.   I can't trace teh serving yard fopr Haddenham in the post-war GWR Instructions I have (which doesn't cover Banbury but does cover Acton and Old Oak Common although those Instructions do include Gerrards Cross but no other minor stations on the Joint Line so I presume at that time it was being served by LNER trains).  I haven't got time to check the 1947 STT at the moment but will have a look when I get a chance.

Edited March 6, 2018 by The Stationmaster

[The Stationmaster]

Having another look at the SRS diagram, I come to the conclusion that I have misread it (a bit fuzzy for my tired eyesight) and there is not a shunt signal that would allow the loco from an up freight train to run round via the Up Main. The shunt signal protects the Up Platform Line from the siding on the London side of the road bridge.

 

So how would these trains be shunted? Too far away, I think, from the signal box for a green flag from there.

I suspect they did what I have written above - I can't see any other simple way of doing the job.  However a big question as far as the 1953 book is concerned is whether or not the trains listed in Post No.3 were booked to work at Haddenham or were simply looped there and in any case there was no doubt nothing to prevent the points being clipped for a shunting move where there was no ground signal.

[Joseph_Pestell]

The Summer 1938 GWR Service Timetable shows the 09.45 Acton - Banbury and the 14.40 Banbury - Old Oak Common to call at Haddenham on an 'as required' basis.  The Down working was allowed 5 minutes and the Up was allowed 6 minutes although in reality any work no doubt took as long as it took.

 

Shunting the Down train would of course have been very straightforward and I suspect that all the Up train did was put-off/pick-up in the siding off the Up Platform line which would give access to the sidings by pinchbarring any wagons.   I can't trace teh serving yard fopr Haddenham in the post-war GWR Instructions I have (which doesn't cover Banbury but does cover Acton and Old Oak Common although those Instructions do include Gerrards Cross but no other minor stations on the Joint Line so I presume at that time it was being served by LNER trains).  I haven't got time to check the 1947 STT at the moment but will have a look when I get a chance.

 

I have been thinking that dropping off in the sidings followed by pinchbarring is the most likely solution.

 

Sadly, rather difficult to replicate on a model. So it may just have to be that there is no call required in the Up direction.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I suspect they did what I have written above - I can't see any other simple way of doing the job.  However a big question as far as the 1953 book is concerned is whether or not the trains listed in Post No.3 were booked to work at Haddenham or were simply looped there and in any case there was no doubt nothing to prevent the points being clipped for a shunting move where there was no ground signal.

 

I was not so concerned about the points but running wrong way past the Up Main Starter.

[The Stationmaster]

I was not so concerned about the points but running wrong way past the Up Main Starter.

 

That's no problem - they'd be making a shunting move in Station Limits and (definitely the case in 1960) there were no restrictions at Haddenham on any of the sort of things normally allowed in Station Limits.

[4069]

Haddenham was unique in that, unlike all the rest of the GW&GC, the station buildings were pure GCR (same design as the stations on the Neasden - Northolt line). In line with the rest of the line, though, the signalling used GWR equipment as built (the GCR and later LNER were responsible for maintenance at that end of the line, so most of the signals were renewed as upper quadrants before nationalisation). The track layout, as you have noted, was simpler than most of the rest of the line, but was much the same as the layouts at the GCR stations at Wootton and Akeman Street, which were built at the same time.

 

I've always assumed that these peculiarities arose from the fact that the line from Princes Risborough to the end of the GW&GC at the site of Ashendon Junction (known during construction as "the point of bifurcation") was only used by the GCR from opening in 1906 until 1910 when the Bicester cut-off opened, and so the GCR managed the building of it. That doesn't quite explain the signalling, though...

[Joseph_Pestell]

Haddenham was unique in that, unlike all the rest of the GW&GC, the station buildings were pure GCR (same design as the stations on the Neasden - Northolt line). In line with the rest of the line, though, the signalling used GWR equipment as built (the GCR and later LNER were responsible for maintenance at that end of the line, so most of the signals were renewed as upper quadrants before nationalisation). The track layout, as you have noted, was simpler than most of the rest of the line, but was much the same as the layouts at the GCR stations at Wootton and Akeman Street, which were built at the same time.

 

I've always assumed that these peculiarities arose from the fact that the line from Princes Risborough to the end of the GW&GC at the site of Ashendon Junction (known during construction as "the point of bifurcation") was only used by the GCR from opening in 1906 until 1910 when the Bicester cut-off opened, and so the GCR managed the building of it. That doesn't quite explain the signalling, though...

 

The 1960 photo in RH Clark's book seems to show a mix as regards signalling. The Up starter from the Platform line is (I think) LQ but the Up starter for the Through line is UQ on an LNER concrete post. But that was resited to improve sighting.

 

Oops! I had not noticed that they are GC rather than GW buildings. They are quite similar to some GW buildings with that arrangement of a canopy that doubles as the roof of the building. I had noticed, though, that the footbridge is a GC type.

[Joseph_Pestell]

In the mornings, except on Sundays, a passenger train from Marylebone reversed at Hadenham, being allowed around 25 minutes to do so.  By the summer of 1961 dmus were in use.  Back in 1955 the formation was six non-corridor coaches with no first class.

 

Chris 

In my 1953 Bradshaw Table 152 (I don't have anything later in date pre-closure), Sunday is the only day that this train did run. So presumably a special for keen hikers.

 

I can only find a couple of evening peak trains that served Haddenham from Paddington.

 

in the Up direction, I have found a weekday train to Marylebone starting from Haddenham at 08.35am. And another at 9.37pm. Many trains during the day seem to terminate at Princes Risborough with London (usually Marylebone) reached by a change of trains there. That seems odd given that the bay at P.R. is only accessible from Aylesbury. Needs more investigation!

[Joseph_Pestell]

Bradshaw is known for inaccuracy and the timetables for Haddenham seem to prove the point.

 

Table 2 (page 718) does show that weekday terminator that Chris Foden mentions - although starting from P.R. There is an earlier train, from Marylebone, that terminates even more improbably at Wotton. I wonder if that was laid on for the local nobility.

 

I then find a train that terminates at Haddenham at 10.29am which has come from Paddington. But is not shown on the Western Region timetable!

 

Numerous trains serving Haddenham starting from Princes Risborough with one down service notably being a connection with the slip coach detached from the 6.52pm ex-Paddington.

 

In 1953, the railways were still recovering from the war. By 1960, the service may have been revised to something more rational. I just  don't know and I have a feeling that public timetables are not going to be of much use in getting a good understanding. All those shuttles starting/originating at Risborough would surely be best as a 14xx + autocoach but don't show as such on the timetable.

[chrisf]

Joseph, I have a winter 1955-56 passenger WTT if that would help.  Most of the passenger trains stopping at Haddenham at that time were autos, or "Rail Motors" as they were rather quaintly called then, but there were some Eastern Region stoppers plus the 4.34 pm from Paddington, whose raison d'etre seemed to be to collect the slip off the 5.10 pm ex Paddington at Bicester North.

 

After typing the above I realised thst you are looking at 1960 for variety in locos and stock.  It just so happens that I also have a passenger WTT for summer 1960.  The autos were still running then, based IIRC at Banbury.   If you want me to look up anything you have only to ask [provided you get my name right!]

 

Chris [edited for typos, again]

Edited March 6, 2018 by chrisf

[The Stationmaster]

The Winter 1960-61 Passenger and Freight WTTs are available to download as PDFs from this page on Michael Clemens' website

 

http://www.michaelclemensrailways.co.uk/?atk=572

[The Stationmaster]

The 1960 photo in RH Clark's book seems to show a mix as regards signalling. The Up starter from the Platform line is (I think) LQ but the Up starter for the Through line is UQ on an LNER concrete post. But that was resited to improve sighting.

 

Oops! I had not noticed that they are GC rather than GW buildings. They are quite similar to some GW buildings with that arrangement of a canopy that doubles as the roof of the building. I had noticed, though, that the footbridge is a GC type.

The mix of signals on the Joint line was quite common and arose from the fact that the GCR/LNER and GWR took it in turns to take responsibility for the route.  Thus if a signal was renewed when the LNER was in charge it would be one of their signals but if it was done while the GWR was in command it would be one of theirs.  This was particularly noticeable at Princes Risborough but also happened elsewhere with an example of LNER signalling design at Saunderton and, of course, at Haddenham.  Once the line went under full WR control its practice became a constant - until the route was transferred to the LMR in 1963.

 

The only thing which didn't change around was staff - they belonged to whichever Company had recruited them which led to some oddities well into nationalisation days because in some respects, but particularly pensions, they continued on their original conditions.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I was not expecting autotrains to be a part of the mix when I started this. Something of a bonus.

 

Looking forward to studying those WTTs. What amazing resources are out there on the internet!

 

Edit:

 

WOW! Just had a quick look at the WTTs. Such a great variety of trains to model. No question of running the full timetable though, the fiddleyards would need to be enormous. Good to see that Haddenham used a lot to recess freight trains for passenger/fast freight to pass. Just the sort of operation wanted for a good exhibition layout.

Edited March 7, 2018 by Joseph_Pestell