Does "D&E" modelling put scale before soul?

[jjb1970]

We all have our own preferences when it comes to layouts and different layouts appeal to different people. I think it’d be a boring world if we all liked the same thing. I tend to like quirky layouts which are well operated modelling subjects I don’t normally think about. I find that to be much more interesting than looking at stuff which is the same as what I model at home, after all what I do at home is probably closer to what I really like in terms of prototypes etc than what anybody else is doing. One of the best layouts I ever saw was a large scale US logging layout which was beautifully done and a scenic masterpiece, the fact that I have no interest in US logging trains (beyond a generic interest in trains) was irrelevant. Large layouts with large trains can be interesting, but I like layouts where there are new details to enjoy everywhere you look and where you keep finding something you hadn’t noticed before, and often smaller layouts are much better for that.

[Clive Mortimore]

Are "modern" building regional though?

 

I can understand a building built in 1890 being built in local materials and to a design by a local architect, but most modern buildings are built from an off the shelf design. You get the same designs all over the country. Just look at McDonalds or ASDA (Walmart). It could be in Burnley, Darlington, Exeter, Cardiff or even Tennessee. They all look the same as they are based on the same design.

 

It's been like that since the 1960s, so yes a depot based on Peterborough could easily have a similar design in the North West. The LNWR was doing that over 100 years ago.

 

 

 

Jason

Hi Jason

 

During the modernisation program the regions were allowed to develop their own ideas around how they were going to maintain and service their new locomotives. The differences between the building styles of the six regions is very distinctive.

 

I would advise anyone who is contemplating building  depot layout to read "Diesel Depots the Early Years" by Hawkins, Reeve and Hopper (Irwell press). And look at a few photos.

[TEAMYAKIMA]

 

And how many P4 layouts are there of that scale on the exhibition circuit able to run full length trains with wonderful track and stock? How about some of the buildings - brewery, warehouses etc etc - it is hardly bereft of scenery!

 

Calcutta Sidings 2 TJH01 DEMU 7th July 2013 Copyright Tim Horn by Tim Horn, on Flickr

 

Or:

 

20s MGR (Phil Eames) on Calcutta Sidings v2 TJH01 ExpoEM North 15th September 2013 Copyright Tim Horn by Tim Horn, on Fl

 

 

Allow me to clarify my thoughts on Calcutta Sidings .........

 

1. Trackwork - excellent

2. Stock - excellent

3. Presentation - excellent

4. Operation - excellent

5  Soul or perhaps we might use the word 'character' - lacking

 

If anything the photos prove my point - to me at least.

Edited March 26, 2018 by TEAMYAKIMA

[Ravenser]

Andy

 

I am not a die-hard steam fan. Whether it was diesel, steam or electric running the point I was trying to make was that outside of the trackbed Calcutta Sidings had nothing of interest . The only thing of interest is/was the stock.

 

Let me put it another (better?) way ..................

 

If there were no trains running through the scene on Calcutta Sidings there was (in my opinion) nothing of interest to make me stop and look at the scene. Now compare that with the American HO layout at Ally Pally - 59th & Rust - which was also incidently running diesels - without any stock on that layout I could have spent 10 minutes just looking at the details and features of the scenery.

 

So, nothing to do with not liking diesels - more to do with the view that excellent stock and realistic operation is only part of the making of a successful attractive (exhibition) layout.

 

And, yes, everyone can judge my efforts at Bristol in 6 weeks time - but because it's not British some die-hard UK modellers will walk past it without a second glance - it's a fact of life.

 

The brewery was modelled to an excellent standard. Unfortunately I was left with the feeling that - scenically - the layout would have been much more effective if compressed to about 2/3rds of the length. Whether the track plan would have permitted that is another matter ....

 

I suspect the location has been modelled to dead-scale, and what the team have possibly demonstrated is that artistic compression is actually necessary . A novel is a "distilled essence" not a verbatim transcript of reality, and possibly something similar applies to layouts. We are so used to compressing locations as a matter of course that perhaps we very rarely encounter the problem of reality having boring bits that need to be edited out

 

I'm not too keen on "cavalcade layouts" as a genre, and if it's any consolation to the team I'd probably spend at least 50% longer looking at Calcutta Sidings than at Stoke Summit... But my strong impression was that the layout is dominated by a very large expanse of very flat very plain, rather black plain track at it's centre, which doesn't grab me, and that the centre third of the backdrop is visually weak

 

Others will have different tastes , but personally Hebble Vale Goods was very much to my personal taste and Calcutta Sidings wasn't. No criticism is meant of the quality of the execution or the standards of operation, but it doesn't punch my buttons

 

P.S. I should perhaps say that for me 59th & Rust went to the opposite extreme - it was just too busy to be fully satisfying

Edited March 26, 2018 by Ravenser

[Chris M]

I don't see anything wrong with stating that a particular layout doesn't appeal to you. For me Calcutta Sidings is of no interest; all that straight track on a flat baseboard equals no soul to me. I respect the builders for the work they have done and what they have achieved.  I wouldn't spend long looking at it even though it has excellent scale trackwork. I expect the builders of Calcutta Sidings wouldn't spend long looking at my layouts as what I do probably wouldn't have any appeal to them. That's fine, it would be very boring if we all liked the same thing.

[Chris M]

We can of course learn and be inspired to do better even from layouts that may not appeal to our interests. From looking at Calcutta sidings I can see that building scale track does make a big difference.

[fozzy280472]

We can of course learn and be inspired to do better even from layouts that may not appeal to our interests. From looking at Calcutta sidings I can see that building scale track does make a big difference.

That's uncanny you made this post as I was just about to say the exact same thing !

As for the layout itself , sometimes the real railway doesn't have "soul" , I have stood at many a straight and level run of four parallel tracks trainspotting years back, whether it translates down to modelling scale is another question.

For what it's worth I like "Calcutta sidings, " I think it captures the railway atmosphere well.

[Allegheny1600]

Allow me to clarify my thoughts on Calcutta Sidings .........

 

1. Trackwork - excellent

2. Stock - excellent

3. Presentation - excellent

4. Operation - excellent

5  Soul or perhaps we might use the word 'character' - lacking

 

If anything the photos prove my point - to me at least.

I agree 100% with these words.

 

Let me clarify this though.

Could I build a layout to this standard? No. I would love to be able to.

Would I build a layout like this even if I could? No.

 

Why? I too, find the whole thing just a little bit soul-less (sorry!). It exemplifies everything about the "modern" railway for me. All block train operation, with identikit wagons. Even the passenger trains appear rather soul-less too.

So, I find it an excellent model, just a rather boring subject - and here, I really do apologise to the builders and operators. I bet you would probably take little interest in my small Prussian layout though, nor my "modern" American layout.

John.

[Clive Mortimore]

For those who are mentioning the straight and flat nature of Calcutta Sidings, have you been to Burton on Trent?

[newbryford]

I know the builder of Calcutta Sidings and most of the operating team quite well, but I wouldn't build a layout like that.

That doesn't mean to say I don't like it.

I enjoy looking at CS because it is a very good example of very good modelling in all aspects - track, stock, scenery and operation.

 

As I said somewhere up thread - a layout needs to convey a sense of time and place and CS does exactly that.

 

If there's one thing that this thread highlights it is the old adage

"you'll never please all of the people all of the time"

 

And that's what is great about our hobby.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Northmoor]

Allow me to clarify my thoughts on Calcutta Sidings .........

 

1. Trackwork - excellent

2. Stock - excellent

3. Presentation - excellent

4. Operation - excellent

5  Soul or perhaps we might use the word 'character' - lacking

 

If anything the photos prove my point - to me at least.

I would probably second all five scores above.  To me, it suffers a bit for not having a backscene.  The (excellently modelled) low relief buildings create only a little sense of location.  It is far from unique amongst exhibition layouts in modelling hardly anything beyond the railway boundary.  The last photo with the (superb) railway warehouse could be backing onto rows of terraced streets, or in the middle of the Fens.  I can't create the "world beyond" in my imagination*.

 

However, to the builders and operators, if you're reading, this is niggling.  It is a superb piece of work and if I could create 1% of what you've done, I'd be very happy.

 

*Hebble Vale Goods does this extremely well.  It is not just the backscene - of which you only see little bits between buildings - it is the clear impression of being built on a hillside with the land sloping up away from you.

[TEAMYAKIMA]

For those who are mentioning the straight and flat nature of Calcutta Sidings, have you been to Burton on Trent?

 

Very sorry to have to say this as I'm sure it could come over as brutal, but as Dave Rowe once said to me 'If you build a very good model of a boring prototype location you will get a boring model'

Edited March 26, 2018 by TEAMYAKIMA

[Zomboid]

Not naming names (partly because I don't remember then), but I have seen some excellent quality models which are decidedly sterile. There doesn't seem to be much of a theme though, I have thoroughly enjoyed steam, diesel, electric, British, American, European, main line, branch lines, various scales... But then I've also been left cold by all of those things too.

One thing I do remember was a well built layout set in the privatisation era with huge operating potential which the operators ignored and just sent the same 3 trains round and round... When I saw the "steam special" for the third time I figured it was time to move on. But that's more a comment on the art of operation than the "soul" of a layout.

[newbryford]

One thing I do remember was a well built layout set in the privatisation era with huge operating potential which the operators ignored and just sent the same 3 trains round and round... When I saw the "steam special" for the third time I figured it was time to move on. But that's more a comment on the art of operation than the "soul" of a layout.

 

Phew! That wasn't our club layout then- it was end to end...............

 

Cheers,

Mick

[wombatofludham]

Frankly if you want sterile and boring there are plenty of GWR BLTs out there. A four track modern layout will at least in theory have plenty of trains running on it as the modern railway is very busy. A bumbling Miss Marpleshire BLT with two trains a day and a Pannier shuffling a wagon from one siding to another in some mysterious Da Vinci Code inspired activity is my idea of a sleeping draught. I can admire the scenic modelling which is my interest, and would find that side of things worth a closer inspection, but operationally they have all the interest of watching grass grow.

 

If I had the room, and money to buy the stock I would love to recreate the Trent Valley running through the open countryside near where I grew up. No shunting (don't understand it), just watching trains stream by at speed interspersed by long freights and Freightliners, with a sound set up recreating the noise of birds twittering and animals in the field, plus the low drone of traffic, the Power Station at Rugeley and the occasional plane droning overhead on finals to Birmingham, and covering the years from 1964 to 2004. Open countryside, open main line and a canal, and the sound effects. I would think a lot of people would find it (a) boring (b) lacking the wow factor and © too electrickery but for me it would be perfect.

[George Woodcock]

Hello

 

      The last three layouts I have built, or have part built, Georgemas Jct, Towcester and Fenchurch St Peter have all been real places or at least based on real places so I have only been ablt to model what was/is there. They are fairly flat, though Towcester has runs on an embankment for some of the time and Fenchurch has a drainage channel. The track is fairly straight but that is how it is/was. Two of them are 'what if' layouts which have used a reasonable amount of modellers licence. I am not very good at back-scenes, perspective is not one of my strong points, (what is), but two of the layouts had rather nice clouds painted by the Cloud Lady who, sadly. I doubt I will ever see again. Like artists modellers often modellers model what they want to see not what was actually there. Though I am a D&E modeller I am now 70 so perhaps I'm in the wrong timescale. As for soul it is what I try to achieve, to get a sense of time and atmosphere though only the viewer can say if I achieve that. I'm sorry that a few people here don't like my good friend Phil Eames layout Calcutta Sidings but I rather like it. I suppose if you don't like Burton on Trent then you won't like the layout but Phil lives nearby and likes it so much that this is the second time he has built the layout, one in EM and then in P4.

 

                                                                                                Cheers

 

                                                                                                         George      

[doctor quinn]

I think it's probably fair to say that Calcutta Sidings is still something of a work in progress, when I spoke to Phil at DEFine he was in the process of modelling the huge stacks of kegs that are a feature of modern breweries.

 

Nick

Edited March 27, 2018 by doctor quinn

[Mike Storey]

I have seen CS but some years ago now, so do not feel qualified to comment on its specifics. But that has never stopped me.....

 

CS is set in the 1980's, IIRC? Many argue that the modern railway scene is boring, and to a certain extent, compared to yesteryears, that can be true, especially of the trains themselves. 

 

But..... the debate is about "soul" versus "accuracy". What many layouts have is a tendency to focus on accuracy towards dimensions, whether it be buildings, traction and rolling stock, or the size and spacing of sleepers. But that is not authenticity when you look at the real thing. Accuracy is what you see when you measure properly. That will include the above, if that is what you are looking for, but it does not necessarily convey atmosphere or reality. Authenticity is what you get when you look properly. That is the difference between a good painting and a great one.

 

CS is highly accurate. Authenticity for CS would have included the inevitable broken troughing lids, litter, graffiti, catch pits, differentiated shoulders for the concrete and wooden sleepered tracks, a suggestion of weeds amongst the sidings (more than just the overgrown end of one shown), buddlea or similar, evidence of human endeavour (the odd discarded wooden sleeper in the cess, a bit of evidence of a walking route for the shunter/numbertaker by virtue of flattened ballast or Meldon dust, discarded tail lamps or lost bardics), and oil stains, lots of them. And so on. It is a technical masterpiece, something I could only ever hope to emulate in my wildest dreams, but it ain't authentic, so it has no soul (IMHO).

 

That is what I worry about for my final (only?) masterpiece. Will it look like what I remember it was really like, or will it look like just about any averagely competent modeller's idea of a model railway? Mine will not be entirely "accurate" but I want it to be as "authentic" as I can manage. It is a hell of a job to get right, and few people manage it. We know who you are.

 

I am not knocking CS and its creators for one moment - they have produced a fantastic model capable of efficiently demonstrating their plethora of locos and stock, in realistic formations of lengths and setting most of us could only froth about. It will be giving them and many, many others a great deal of pleasure, and rightly so. But for some of us, we look for something a little different, and that is why this hobby is so diverse. I only hope to explain that difference a little more.

 

But to emphasise my point, look at this (with due acknowledgement to Owd Bob of this parish - see his thread if you dare), which is what I am up against on my garden layout. There is very little "accurate" about this model, but by any measure it has "soul",  far more than Marvin Gaye IMHO:

 

Edited March 27, 2018 by Mike Storey

[Chris M]

Frankly if you want sterile and boring there are plenty of GWR BLTs out there. A four track modern layout will at least in theory have plenty of trains running on it as the modern railway is very busy. A bumbling Miss Marpleshire BLT with two trains a day and a Pannier shuffling a wagon from one siding to another in some mysterious Da Vinci Code inspired activity is my idea of a sleeping draught. I can admire the scenic modelling which is my interest, and would find that side of things worth a closer inspection, but operationally they have all the interest of watching grass grow.If I had the room, and money to buy the stock I would love to recreate the Trent Valley running through the open countryside near where I grew up. No shunting (don't understand it), just watching trains stream by at speed interspersed by long freights and Freightliners, with a sound set up recreating the noise of birds twittering and animals in the field, plus the low drone of traffic, the Power Station at Rugeley and the occasional plane droning overhead on finals to Birmingham, and covering the years from 1964 to 2004. Open countryside, open main line and a canal, and the sound effects. I would think a lot of people would find it (a) boring (b) lacking the wow factor and © too electrickery but for me it would be perfect.

I quite like the odd GWR BLT but I can see what you are saying.

Your idea sounds great for an exhibition layout - go on and do it! One of my layouts is along similar lines with thunderstorm, sheep, cow and tractor sounds available on tap but only used when youngsters are watching. Some fellow exhibitors don’t like it but I see lots of smiles on the faces of the youngsters. Going right off topic this is what mine looks like.

https://youtu.be/RziX8qmiPiY

Edited March 27, 2018 by Chris M

[Clive Mortimore]

I quite like the odd GWR BLT but I can see what you are saying.

Your idea sounds great for an exhibition layout - go on and do it! One of my layouts is along similar lines with thunderstorm, sheep, cow and tractor sounds available on tap but only used when youngsters are watching. Some fellow exhibitors don’t like it but I see lots of smiles on the faces of the youngsters. Going right off topic this is what mine looks like.

Hi Chris

 

I like your layout, and really enjoyed seeing it at last years Warley.

[LBRJ]

For those who are mentioning the straight and flat nature of Calcutta Sidings, have you been to Burton on Trent?

 

Yes I have changed trains there, far tooo many times!

But CS is a good case in point, its a great layout...but being based on somewhere that has no spirit, or soul, to start with is never going to help much.

 

What  I was trying to get at in my OP is that looking at layouts like Hebble Vale Goods, Diesels in the Duchy. Canada Street, Shenston Road makes me feel like I am actually there. CS and quite a few other really good layouts do not do that for me - they may be spot on for accuracy but they don't have it.

[Ravenser]

I think it's probably fair to say that Calcutta Sidings is still something of a work in progress, when I spoke to Phil at DEFine he was in the process of modelling the huge stacks of kegs that are a feature of modern breweries.

 

Nick

 

 

Point noted that there is more to do - a keg stack was in place at Ally Pally

 

Given this - as constructive criticism - I think the team should look at adding visual interest in the middle of the layout by any possible means (detailing, cameos , anything and everything they can come up with)  . The left and right sides of the layout are fine - the centre is very weak visually.

 

The issue is clearly visible in the second picture in post 47. At the centre of the layout is about 4'-5' of plain white backscene with a few cars in front of it. In front of this is 2' depth of straight plain track , dead flat and basically charcoal grey, fronted by a long flat charcoal grey track. Where the centrepiece of the layout should be , in visual terms - there's almost nothing  

 

The argument may well be "well, that's an accurate reproduction of an actual location, to scale. Therefore it's right . Therefore it must work." . But as a visual composition it doesn't  

 

Modelling a station may seem a hackneyed cliche of a formula, but it does provide a big centrepiece at the heart of a layout. With Calcutta Sidings, at the heart of the layout there's almost nothing to see

Edited March 28, 2018 by Ravenser

[black and decker boy]

Ally’s Pally was my second viewining of Calcutta 2, my thought was that a bit extra scenic width in front would improve the perspective and give a better viewing angle and really let you sit and watch the trains along much of the length. With the barrier only a foot or so from the facia, it was impossible to view sideways with any satisfaction so your focus narrows and the odd gap in the back scene takes on a heightened importance.

 

As said above, it’s excellent modelling and a great achievement to run scale length, scale speed in P4

[bazjones1711]

This is our Crossley scrapyard layout only 4ft long , but does it have soul ? I'll let others decide

 

[bazjones1711]

A few more