Does "D&E" modelling put scale before soul?

[Mike Storey]

As Adrian has said, no-one is "paid" (other than direct expenses) for producing a layout at exhibitions. So it is not the same as the entertainment industry. That is like comparing going to watch Auntie Mary or cousin Eric at their latest AmDram production, with an RSC production of Hamlet?

 

Surely the initial point of the thread was to ascertain opinion about the alleged concentration of D&E modellers on accuracy of dimensions as opposed to a more general representation of the authenticity of a scene? Opinion differs as do preferences. Not sure where the thread goes from here?

 

The only valid point made that I can see is whether exhibition managers understand their prospective, local or national, audiences enough to ensure their exhibition has a future. Personally, these days, I tend to go to those exhibitions which are likely to have the traders I would like to visit, especially the smaller ones who do not have websites, and that tends to coincide with the a majority of the type of layouts I prefer. So some/most exhibition managers clearly know their stuff.

[Titan]

Well I am not so bothered about overall accuracy or scale, I go for overall impression. As my layout is just for me, and friends and family (that can't tell one coach from another - let alone the correct length!), I have managed to populate my layout with cheap old stock, giving the overall impression of a big extensive railway collection. Indeed compared to some modern offerings the oldies stand up rather well. I am also a bit nostalgic. Not only do I model the trains of my youth, I model them in many cases with models contemporary with my youth. The smell of ozone as the old Triang and Dublo trains spark around, as well as the more recent Lima offerings, all of course powered by trusty Duettes... mmmm!

 

So I am quite happy with my Lima Deltics (Bought MIB and unused for £15) Shorty Mk3's (About £4 each IIRC) and so on.

 

Another example,I really wanted a class 101 in refurbished livery. But the latest Bachmann offering, although no doubt superb, is way above a price I can justify. Even Hornby/Lima versions go for quite a bit on ebay, and would need a respray anyway. So instead I am having fun upgrading and respraying an old Triang one that I happen to have already. A little bit of work on it makes a significant difference - of course it will still be too short with overscale bogies, but it will look good enough for me and my visitors and there will be some of my soul in it as well as that provided by Triang!

Edited April 3, 2018 by Titan

[Mike Storey]

Well I am not so bothered about overall accuracy or scale, I go for overall impression. As my layout is just for me, and friends and family (that can't tell one coach from another - let alone the correct length!), I have managed to populate my layout with cheap old stock, giving the overall impression of a big extensive railway collection. Indeed compared to some modern offerings the oldies stand up rather well. I am also a bit nostalgic. Not only do I model the trains of my youth, I model them in many cases with models contemporary with my youth. The smell of ozone as the old Triang and Dublo trains spark around, as well as the more recent Lima offerings, all of course powered by trusty Duettes... mmmm!

 

So I am quite happy with my Lima Deltics (Bought MIB and unused for £15) Shorty Mk3's (About £4 each IIRC) and so on.

 

Another example,I really wanted a class 101 in refurbished livery. But the latest Bachmann offering, although no doubt superb, is way above a price I can justify. Even Hornby/Lima versions go for quite a bit on ebay, and would need a respray anyway. So instead I am having fun upgrading and respraying an old Triang one that I happen to have already. A little bit of work on it makes a significant difference - of course it will still be too short with overscale bogies, but it will look good enough for me and my visitors and there will be some of my soul in it as well as that provided by Triang!

 

Oh yeah. I love the smell of napalm burning rheostats in the morning! (cue Valkyrie ......)

[jjb1970]

When I go to exhibitions my priorities are to:

• Buy stuff from the trade stands
• Start fights with people wearing back packs
• Point out the inadequacies of layouts I can be bothered to look at and generally belittle the operators
• Tut at children who have the nerve to think that exhibitions are places to have fun

In that order. But that's just me.

[Clive Mortimore]

I hope I will be putting scale and soul into this little layout.

[Mike Storey]

When I go to exhibitions my priorities are to:

• Buy stuff from the trade stands
• Start fights with people wearing back packs
• Point out the inadequacies of layouts I can be bothered to look at and generally belittle the operators
• Tut at children who have the nerve to think that exhibitions are places to have fun

In that order. But that's just me.

 

Surely, for priority one, you mean, berate traders, at very great length and ensuring as wide an audience as possible, for not having brought along, or produced at all, the very thing you wanted to buy?

 

And you have missed out kicking Raspberries who dare to believe they should be able to get in front of you at the railings. I know I do.

[jjb1970]

Surely, for priority one, you mean, berate traders, at very great length and ensuring as wide an audience as possible, for not having brought along, or produced at all, the very thing you wanted to buy?

 

And you have missed out kicking Raspberries who dare to believe they should be able to get in front of you at the railings. I know I do.

 

That's after I've bought the stuff I want, I never tick them off when I want something off them and am demanding an extra 25% off or I'll take my trade elsewhere and anyway they should be standing up and addressing me as "sir". Once I've got what I want then there is no further need to treat them badly so I can then berate them for their appalling inadequate stalls and pathetic excuses for why they haven't got any 3.14mm fine scale Rio Tinto kettles and rolling stock followed by slapping them about a bit.

 

On barriers, I carry a 1000V megger tester which does a splendid job of getting idiots out of my way, it's got enough voltage to stun them and drop them to the floor (where they stop my shoes getting dirty from the floor when I stand on them) but not enough current to kill the. Well not very often, you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.

Edited April 3, 2018 by jjb1970

[newbryford]

 

 

On barriers, I carry a 1000V megger tester which does a splendid job of getting idiots out of my way, it's got enough voltage to stun them and drop them to the floor (

 

Doesn't work on wooden barriers............

[4630]

 

On barriers, I carry a 1000V megger tester which does a splendid job of getting idiots out of my way, it's got enough voltage to stun them and drop them to the floor (where they stop my shoes getting dirty from the floor when I stand on them) but not enough current to kill the. Well not very often, you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.

I quite like the idea of carrying a taser with me to exhibitions. Purely for self-defence, of course, to counter any particularly offensive behaviour from other members of the ‘paying public’.

 

I guess there’s no reason though why it couldn’t be directed at any exhibitors who fail to ‘educate and entertain’, or whose layout lacks ‘soul’.

[griffgriff]

Oh my.... why did I start reading this thread? Live and let live for goodness sake... Rmweb really has become ‘the other place’

 

Griff

[jjb1970]

Doesn't work on wooden barriers............

 

I pride myself on asking if people have a pacemaker before zapping them. Not because I won't electrocute somebody with a pacemaker but just so I make sure I have a good alibi if I fry their pacemaker and need a good excuse to explain why I go around model railway exhibitions administering 1000V shocks to people when the Police turn up.

[Mike Storey]

Oh my.... why did I start reading this thread? Live and let live for goodness sake... Rmweb really has become ‘the other place’

 

Griff

 

Thanks for that observation. You are completely right of course. They should be allowed to live. We are not savages, after all.

[Pacific231G]

That's after I've bought the stuff I want, I never tick them off when I want something off them and am demanding an extra 25% off or I'll take my trade elsewhere and anyway they should be standing up and addressing me as "sir". Once I've got what I want then there is no further need to treat them badly so I can then berate them for their appalling inadequate stalls and pathetic excuses for why they haven't got any 3.14mm fine scale Rio Tinto kettles and rolling stock followed by slapping them about a bit.

 

On barriers, I carry a 1000V megger tester which does a splendid job of getting idiots out of my way, it's got enough voltage to stun them and drop them to the floor (where they stop my shoes getting dirty from the floor when I stand on them) but not enough current to kill the. Well not very often, you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.

 

 

[grahame]

On barriers, I carry a 1000V megger tester which does a splendid job of getting idiots out of my way,

I find that when using such equipment you need to be wary of generating sparks. Otherwise you can ignite the noxious gaseous emmissions emminating from the great unwashed and get caught up in the ensuing conflagration.

 

G

[jjb1970]

I find that when using such equipment you need to be wary of generating sparks. Otherwise you can ignite the noxious gaseous emmissions emminating from the great unwashed and get caught up in the ensuing conflagration.

 

G

 

How right you are, that's why I always use an ATEX rated megger approved for use in all flammable atmospheres, and why the petrol driven chainsaw I carry just in case things get nasty has a spark arrestor.

[jjb1970]

 

Stop That this thread is getting very silly.jpg

 

 

Sorry sir, won't happen again

[Chris M]

I put rock before soul.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Others would put static grass before it all....................

[Reorte]

And I consider that Calcutta sidings has an interesting landscape. And it has moving trains.

 

So we can disagree what soul means to different people.

What you might call interesting is boring to others. What you call boring is interesting to others

 

I think the one thing that we can agree on is that you'll never please all of the people all of the time.]

 

Good luck with your layout at the exhibition

And damned if I know what's even boring and soulless or not when it comes to layouts. I can watch a layout for ages of a prototype I've no interest in or actively dislike and find myself spending hardly any time looking at one that in theory ticks all the boxes.

[Pacific231G]

As Adrian has said, no-one is "paid" (other than direct expenses) for producing a layout at exhibitions. So it is not the same as the entertainment industry. That is like comparing going to watch Auntie Mary or cousin Eric at their latest AmDram production, with an RSC production of Hamlet?

 

Surely the initial point of the thread was to ascertain opinion about the alleged concentration of D&E modellers on accuracy of dimensions as opposed to a more general representation of the authenticity of a scene? Opinion differs as do preferences. Not sure where the thread goes from here?

 

The comparison with amateur drama is quite an interesting one. I used to be very heavily involved in a local group that took theatre seriously (several of our members went on to become professional actors) Our choice of plays was based on what we found interesting and challenging in acting and production not what we thought would attract audiences so we avoided the usual amdram fare of Francis Durbridge etc. We did, often with people who'd never acted before, get well beyond the archetypical coarse acting standard of the cast remembering most of their lines and not tripping over the scenery . At least half our audiences were the friends of our members but we did build up a local audience who came to our productions for their own sake. We weren't the RSC, far from it, but we were on a spectrum that includes both Auntie Mary or cousin Eric.at one end*  and the National Theatre at the other. 

 

That spectrum is probably true of most creative arts from photography and painting to music and pottery. Our hobby is odd in that, though there are of course many professional model makers, their work mainly serves other professions such as architecture, industrial design and even museums. Models that are purely an expression of the modelmakers art or craft mostly come from amateurs or sometimes professionals working in amateur mode (rather like airline captains who fly light aircraft for fun) 

 

The point of comparison is that in any creative activity the best work comes from those who are passionate about what they are doing rather than setting out to please someone else. FWIW my impression is that the layouts, large and small,  reflecting that passion end up giving far more pleasure to exhibition goers, even those for who the subject may not be of particular interest, than those designed to tick various "good exhibition layout" boxes.

 

* While working away from home I did  briefly belong to an example of that sort of drama group. If my usual group was finescale EM that one was Setrack with Skaledale buildings and foam ballast but both groups enjoyed what they were doing.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Pacific231G

[Tim Horn]

I have no problem with anyone deliberately setting out to build a boring layout at home - my issue is when people charge me money to view such a layout at an exhibition. Model railway exhibitions should be viewed as being part of the entertainement industry - layouts should entertain the paying public.

 

I think as a layout we do quite well at entertaining the public

 

 

We don't have to let anyone have a go, but kids enjoy it and I encourage our team to let them have a go when we can. I can appreciate the views on here, I'm not going to defend the layout as you can't really argue about opinions. 

 

This is one mans layout at the end of the day, built by Phil Eames, with a little help from others such as myself. I love it.

 

I wish you well with you exhibition next month Paul.

 

Cheers

Tim

[fozzy280472]

That little boys face says it all really ....I wish you could capture and bottle that look of excitement....what a great picture !

[Northmoor]

The point of comparison is that in any creative activity the best work comes from those who are passionate about what they are doing rather than setting out to please someone else. FWIW my impression is that the layouts, large and small,  reflecting that passion end up giving far more pleasure to exhibition goers, even those for who the subject may not be of particular interest, than those designed to tick various "good exhibition layout" boxes.

Totally agree - layouts either do or don't have (apologies) the X Factor.

 

I've mentioned before that layouts build to an artificial deadline - "Please build a layout to display at our exhibition in 6 weeks" - tend to create identikit layouts, because you have to rely on RTR stock and RTP buildings.  These layouts lack soul (to me) and they are to a greater extent than others, built to please someone else. But these are a very small minority of layouts on the exhibition circuit and at your local show, there is an audience keen to know that it needn't take them five years to build a layout they can be proud of.

[Zomboid]

It varies from layout to layout what that X Factor is. Sometimes it's the small details which bring it to life, but that doesn't mean that an ultra detailed layout has any soul. Sometimes it's a sense of fun, but comedy cameos are at least as unsuccessful as they are successful at providing it. I find that coarse scale often has a lot of this X factor, but I've seen plenty of dull as you like "tinplate" and dublo layouts. Sometimes it's the operation...

 

The thing is I guess that it's all about people. The creators give something soul, and I think I'm more likely to find it in something built (or at least designed) by an individual, because group layouts can suffer from a "designed by committee" feeling. Which of course is why I enjoy modular layouts where nothing really fits with what it's next to and the overall thing is very much designed by committee. Though I'm playing on that, not watching.

 

Good job there's a lot of different layouts out there, with different positives and negatives, so we can all find stuff to linger in front of and other stuff to walk right past.

[TEAMYAKIMA]

I wish you well with you exhibition next month Paul.

 

Cheers

Tim

 

Thanks

 

Paul