WSF/FUD 3D printing - Please Ask don't grumble!

[rue_d_etropal]

Luckily I have a thick skin and don't get upset easily, but it really annoys me when people grumble about sometig I have done, and they could have asked before.

The debate about WSF versus FUD, I don't wnt to duscuss that. But, I am starting to add both FUD and extreme FUD to options.

Small scales such as N gauge are always going to be a challenge, so initially for my standard gauge models I did not offer them.

 

Then someone asked.

 

I said I would try, did the redesign in WSF, and they ordered a model,and were very happy. I only then started to add N gauge for other models.

 

Next someone asks for N gauge/2mm finescale in FUD or extreme FUD, so I have a think. It is not difficult as I could use the bigger scale, just reduce it and it could print in either FUD or extreme FUD. As far as I know this has worked OK. I did the LNER dynometer coach in extreme FUD, and apparently it has come out very nicely. I will add this option to other models eventually, and initially only if asked.

 

A common thread through this . People asked for something I was not offering, so I had a look and if possible, added what they wanted to options.

 

I have been doing 3D print design for nearly 5 years, and it is very common for designs to only be offered in a limited number of scales . Most designers , if asked, will see if their designs can be done in other scales. Some can not, which is a pity, but usually I can.

 

All it takes is to ask, so if there is something people want that is different to what is being offered, please ask, don't grumble.

 

On the whole I have found narrow gauge modellers more likely to ask for different scales. Sadly some who model standard gauge seem to expect everything to be up front and on show. I think that might be partly because there is so much good quality r2r now, and some are forgetting how to actually build models. That is not good for the hobby.

[chris p bacon]

 I did the LNER dynometer coach in extreme FUD, and apparently it has come out very nicely. I will add this option to other models eventually, and initially only if asked.

 

 

Do you not test print ?

[rue_d_etropal]

It was asked for, and person was happy . The type of problems that could arise are production problems not design ones. Shapeways have software to check designs, and they passed it as OK. Also their enginerrs will check designs as well.

Fact is that if I had to get a test print for every design, there would be no 3 D designed models. Some might be able to do that if they only offer a few designs, but being practical and for 3D printing to reach its full potential, then models are offered on a First to Try(that is how Shapeways work), and even  then there can be production problems which Shapeways will sort out.

If we want this hobby to continue for the many, not just the diehard elite  few, then we need to look at new ideas, new technology, and take a few risks. All modelers should be able to model, not just collect and expect someone else to do the hard work.

I was wary about the extreme FUD, as there had been a few comments on this forum. One reason I  would only consider it for N or 2mm./ft, is that the models are small, so less likely to have some of the problems some have had.

As I am now looking at small prototypes, I might only offer models initially in bigger scales, but if someone asks then I will have a look. I am cuurrent working on a design for the SMR Gazelle and coaches, and in Gauge 1 , they are about the same ssize as a standard O gauge loco. Even the buffers are nearer to O scale.

 

Looking it from the other direction, I sometimes get people asking, and when I have done changes, I hear nothing. I don't charge for my time, just the commission on actual sales. So sometimes I think I am having my time wasted. Usually I am not bothered as every design brings in a new challenge, and I am trying out new design ideas so I am learning.

 

Just need a bit of thought from those wanting models. I don't expect feed back, but it is nice to get, and there is a big range of modelling skills and expectations.

 

Finally, I do sometimes get test prints, but usually whn I a trying out a new design idea. I have worked out what works and what does not. Unfortunately it is not possible to predict every possible production problem. Talk toanyone who has been doing it for a while and they will say that even when a model comes out OK , in WSF, on one occasion, next time it isnot quite as good. Most of these 'problems' are within what I believe any modeller should be able to get round, and most do.

 

This is not r2r modelling, 3D printing is an aid to scratchbuilding.

Edited March 8, 2018 by rue_d_etropal

[Revolution Mike]

I never understand why designers don't offer their designs in "better" materials than the model might have been intended for - even if it wouldn't be my choice, I completely understand why some might think FUD/FXD too expensive and offer things in WSF but why not give the customer the choice whether to pay for different materials?  It is not as if it is any loss to the designer, and you may actually get more sales.

 

Variability in the printing is a different matter - some of that is understanding the process and what is possible (designer's responsibility) and some of that is the variability of output from Shapeways (which is a matter for the customer to take up with Shapeways).

Edited March 8, 2018 by red death

[chris p bacon]

It was asked for, and person was happy .  1 The type of problems that could arise are production problems not design ones. Shapeways have software to check designs, and they passed it as OK. Also their enginerrs will check designs as well.

2 Fact is that if I had to get a test print for every design, there would be no 3 D designed models. Some might be able to do that if they only offer a few designs, but being practical and for 3D printing to reach its full potential, then models are offered on a First to Try(that is how Shapeways work), and even  then there can be production problems which Shapeways will sort out.

3  If we want this hobby to continue for the many, not just the diehard elite  few, then we need to look at new ideas, new technology, and take a few risks. All modelers should be able to model, not just collect and expect someone else to do the hard work.

I was wary about the extreme FUD, as there had been a few comments on this forum. One reason I  would only consider it for N or 2mm./ft, is that the models are small, so less likely to have some of the problems some have had.

As I am now looking at small prototypes, I might only offer models initially in bigger scales, but if someone asks then I will have a look. I am cuurrent working on a design for the SMR Gazelle and coaches, and in Gauge 1 , they are about the same ssize as a standard O gauge loco. Even the buffers are nearer to O scale.

 

4 Looking it from the other direction, I sometimes get people asking, and when I have done changes, I hear nothing. I don't charge for my time, just the commission on actual sales. So sometimes I think I am having my time wasted. Usually I am not bothered as every design brings in a new challenge, and I am trying out new design ideas so I am learning.

 

Just need a bit of thought from those wanting models. I don't expect feed back, but it is nice to get, and there is a big range of modelling skills and expectations.

 

5 Finally, I do sometimes get test prints, but usually whn I a trying out a new design idea. I have worked out what works and what does not. Unfortunately it is not possible to predict every possible production problem. Talk toanyone who has been doing it for a while and they will say that even when a model comes out OK , in WSF, on one occasion, next time it isnot quite as good. Most of these 'problems' are within what I believe any modeller should be able to get round, and most do.

 

This is not r2r modelling, 3D printing is an aid to scratchbuilding.

 

Blimey it was only a simple question.

 

Rather than requote everything, I'll answer the bold in order of highlighting.

 

1 - I disagree, some designs print differently depending on the material, I have a locomotive printed in both WSF and FUD and there is a marked difference in the 2.

 

2 - There would be 3D printing (and is) it's just others test print before offering. (your choice not to)

 

3 -  Diehard elite ? wtf.... as for taking risks....who's taking the risk ?

 

4 -  Yep agree with you there, that's just life though.

 

5 - The problems with WSF are the material which isn't really suitable.

 

Hats off to you for the amount you produce,    I often wonder how much you've invested in source material,  as putting projects together  it's getting accurate drawings you can work from rather than stock lists and outlines that takes the time and money. I certainly don't envy you there.

[rue_d_etropal]

Getting drawings is most difficult part. Yes an investment, especially as many of these books are well sought after!

Many of the drawings available are either working diagrams(?), or are probably based on them. Usually obvious errors can be spotted(Jim Russell warns of this in his books). For many models, there are no real examples still existing so you are totally dependent on what is published. Photos(taken from wrong angle)can actually be misleading. Unless someone comes forward with official, fully detailed drawings then I can only do my best. If it looks right, then it probably is, and I would challenge anyone to build a model themselves.

 

One reason I am mainly doing coaches, or railcars is that they all follow a similar design. A long box, with a curved roof, and windows in the sides. Actual shape varies, but that is just a detail. I am getting better at some of the curves, And it might be some of those that distort perception of shape sometimes.

I am also doing more pre-grouping coaches as there is a big gap in the market.

 

There is also now more interest in bigger scales such as O gauge, not forgetting gauge 1. 3d printing actually works out pretty good value for these scales.

[sem34090]

I'm with 'Rue here, and I for one certainly can't afford to get everything test printed.

 

I do, however, make it clear that each of those products has not been test printed.

[chris p bacon]

I'm with 'Rue here, and I for one certainly can't afford to get everything test printed.

 

I do, however, make it clear that each of those products has not been test printed.

 

 

I'm intrigued.....I only produce items in etch or cast that I want, although I'm not averse to passing on to those who've expressed an interest. 

 

If you're not test printing and you don't actually want the items yourself,  then you're a manufacturer  but you want a punter to purchase then take a risk that it will print correctly.  

 

I ask, as being involved in a small way in the production of some locomotives in 3D they do not always print accurately and we've had some examples where they've been printed undersize*.  but how will Joe Bloggs know if you don't have an accurate example that you can refer back to if there are problems.

 

*Shapeways have reprinted

[rue_d_etropal]

I started by designing models I wanted myself, but I now enjoy the designing more, and can't afford to buy that much myself. There is only a small amount of commission on my designs, not like a manufacturer paying pennies for materials and charging pounds for complete product. If I was to cost in my time, then I would have to quadruple prices.

Shapeways do make it clear that designsare'First to Print'., and regularly check that. Even if a model has been printing OK, then gets a cuple of problems in manufacture9They try 3 times), then models can be set back to 'Firs to design'. I think much of the misunderstanding arised from many not knowing how Shapeways operate.

 

Manufacturer, that is an interesting question, and one I am sure someone will bring up with respect to any new technology based business. I just do the design, Shapeways do the manufacturing on request. They send finished products to the customer, not me, and I get a monthly commission payment. It is the way many, if not most business will operate in the future. Compare this to the one man(?) business, casting using resin, taking orders, and then having to send them out. Many have problems(just look at some threads on this forum), and I have come cross some very dodgy comments relating to some businesses in the past.

[chris p bacon]

Manufacturer, that is an interesting question, and one I am sure someone will bring up with respect to any new technology based business. I just do the design, Shapeways do the manufacturing on request. They send finished products to the customer, not me, and I get a monthly commission payment. It is the way many, if not most business will operate in the future.

 

 

Compare this to the one man(?) business, casting using resin, taking orders, and then having to send them out. Many have problems(just look at some threads on this forum), and I have come cross some very dodgy comments relating to some businesses in the past.

 

The first part is an interesting way of looking at it.

Shapeways are the manufacturer but only of a design which is supplied to them by a 3rd party.  What if someone purchases a product expecting a model of a prototype, it's printed as per the design but when delivered is dimensionally inaccurate. Could they return it as it's not as they expected? Shapeways aren't liable for a return as they have printed what they were asked to,  but by subcontracting the manufacture are you absolved of the responsibility of a return even though it is a design fault ?

 

Re the second part,  There's good and bad in every business sphere, Modern technology doesn't mean that old habits of poor design, manufacture and customer service will die out, they'll always be with us. Just in a different form. 

[rue_d_etropal]

I can supply scale drawings of all my designs. This I do for some new models when someone has suggested a new design. Scale is not an issue now. Most of my designs follow same sequence of original size, then resizing to each scale . The only difficulty is with smaller scales, in particular N gauge, which is now why I offer FUD . On the whole I find people are willing to discuss models, but some just assume, and I would prefer to talk first if they have any potential issues.

It is not just new technology, but the way you deal with it. People are still getting used to the idea of ordering stuff to be 'manufactured' online, and the split between design and actual manufacture. Unfortunately there are still some issues with 3D printing, out of my control, although I do try to predict some and design around them.

[MGR Hooper!]

I'll bravely put my hand up here....I am another who doesn't test print everything I design. But there's reasons for that:-
- Shipping costs are ridiculous from Shapeways
- Customs charges are high
- I know what to expect after almost 3 years in this field
- Only once (due to an error from Shapeways) the print came out 1mm smaller dimension wise.
- If there's any error or if the customer is generally unhappy they can get a refund for it fully.
- My customers have faith in me and my designs as I have a few loyal ones. They know my work, they know Shapeways.

[Quarryscapes]

I'll bravely put my hand up here....I am another who doesn't test print everything I design. But there's reasons for that:-

- Shipping costs are ridiculous from Shapeways

- Customs charges are high

- I know what to expect after almost 3 years in this field

- Only once (due to an error from Shapeways) the print came out 1mm smaller dimension wise.

- If there's any error or if the customer is generally unhappy they can get a refund for it fully.

- My customers have faith in me and my designs as I have a few loyal ones. They know my work, they know Shapeways.

 

Same here, If someone wants something resized I'll try and accommodate, but I sure as hell ain't test printing it. I don't make anything like enough money from prints to cover it. There has only ever been one problem, there was an error in the model which wasn't visible but caused an axlebox to not print, Shapeways told me, I fixed and re uploaded and they sent the customer a new one. 

[njee20]

I think people are more expressing surprise at not test printing a model full stop, rather than not test printing when they've had a request to up/down scale a model, which is wholly reasonable.

 

I must admit I'd assumed most people were doing things they personally wanted, and as such would have test printed, but I hadn't particularly considered people doing it purely for the enjoyment of designing - as Rue' has said.

 

I'm personally grateful there are people designing these things, I've bought a fair few 3D printed models (most of which languish on my workbench still!), and have personally never had an issue that couldn't be resolved easily.

 

I got banned from another forum for being quite vocal after someone blasted a minescule inaccuracy on a 3D printed model and said they'd be submitting a PayPal claim to get a refund!

[MGR Hooper!]

I got banned from another forum for being quite vocal after someone blasted a minescule inaccuracy on a 3D printed model and said they'd be submitting a PayPal claim to get a refund!

What a pity, I remember something similar occur on facebook with an HST-P 3D print.

[Oldddudders]

I have never believed anyone got or gets rich from our hobby, and these “models at the margin” are the least likely to make their designer’s fortune. But some will regard you as running a business and expect the full works where imperfections are found. Ridiculous.

[njee20]

What a pity, I remember something similar occur on facebook with an HST-P 3D print.

That's the one :-)

 

It was only a temporary ban to be fair, but still. It's disappointing that someone thought it appropriate to lambast a designer because they'd accidentally missed out a cabside door handle (as the model is now out in the open) on an item they've made available at a marginal cost, essentially as a scratchbuilding aid - to paraphrase two eloquent views above. They even fixed it when it was pointed out to them, and sent the complainer a replacement.

[Gareth Collier]

Luckily I have a thick skin and don't get upset easily, but it really annoys me when people grumble about sometig I have done, and they could have asked before.

 

Luckily I have a thick skin and don't get upset easily, but it really annoys me when someone has an online shop, albeit through Shapeways, but only offers a product in one material which produces poor results and when questioned assumes everyone knows they can ask you for it in another as that 'is the norm'. I believe it is perfectly reasonable when ordering a print to assume that the designer has checked to see if it works rather than leave it up to the purchaser to effectively pay for a test print.

Not trying to start a war as I mentioned in my message to you, your designs are a great addition to the hobby, but I know of other designers that get the hump if you contact them and ask if they could change this or that so don't tell me 'most ask, that is the norm' as it just isn't.

If you re read our conversation over on Shapeways you'll note I wasn't grumbling, just asking a question to which you were very defensive/dismissive and you only gave a constructive answer when I did start grumbling.

Thank you for now making the 'N' stuff available in FUD. I have sorted it out with Shapeways and am now getting them printed in FUD.

[rue_d_etropal]

I find it odd, and actually counter productive when designers say they can't resize a model. One big advantage of 3D printing is that designs can be resized easily, or should be able to be done. Shapeways do offer a resizing option, but I prefer to be able to optimise models for different scales.

I use commercial software which can easily resize designs. Look at Shapeways and you will find that the two most prolithic designers are Tom Bell and myself. Tom actually recommended the software to me. I tend to leave the narrow gauge to him, whilst I stick with mainly standard gauge , but will be doing more French metre gauge in the future.

 

I had previously not offered FUD, as when I started there were still some problems. The extreme version was not even around. There are still a few problems, but believe it is still best suited to smaller models such as N, Z and T . My current design of Gazelle, will only be available in N for FUD and extreme FUD. Even in OO it is nearer to the size of an N gauge model, so FUD will be an option. For bigger scales, not only is it not often available, but problems with warping can occur.

 

My main point in posting this thread was to try to explain that I am open to ideas, and all it takes is to ask. 3D printing has got a lot better over past 5 years, but it has still not reached where some think it has arrived, where all you do is press a button and have a r2r model in any scale. Dream on. It will happen eventually.

 

One point about test prints. Most of my coach  designs evolve from one design, so if I test that original, then I am 99% certain the others will work OK. Even if I test printed a design, the way that 3D printing works, means that the next print is not as good, especially with WSF.

Edited March 9, 2018 by rue_d_etropal

[chris p bacon]

I had previously not offered FUD, as when I started there were still some problems. ..... There are still a few problems, but believe it is still best suited to smaller models such as N, Z and T . My current design of Gazelle, will only be available in N for FUD and extreme FUD. Even in OO it is nearer to the size of an N gauge model, so FUD will be an option. For bigger scales, not only is it not often available, but problems with warping can occur.

 

.

One point about test prints. Most of my coach  designs evolve from one design, so if I test that original, then I am 99% certain the others will work OK. Even if I test printed a design, the way that 3D printing works, means that the next print is not as good, especially with WSF.

 

 

I'm still at a a loss at to understand the idea that WSF is better for OO, it quite simply isn't.

 

I also don't think that some that order what is essentially a scratch build,  understand that there are very few adhesives that can be used with it.  Taking your DMU/Coach bodies what do you suggest someone glues glazing in with ? WSF does not take Cyano and only just accepts epoxy resin ( although that can be pulled apart with reasonable force) the best fix for WSF is mechanical, hence why I've only had it as a chassis bolted to a FUD body.

FUD on the other hand needs little finishing, has good detail representation and will take epoxy and Cyano.

 

Your last sentence sums it up with WSF, the cost of FUD is higher and so WSF is more attractive for sales. But poor quality WSF prints will actually set back the sales of 3D as people are turned off of it by bad experiences. 

[Mad McCann]

Gauge 1?

That’s probably the biggest FUD I’ve yet heard of.

Has anybody actually seen a FUD that large?

Quite an undertaking given the trials reported in smaller scales.

 

D4.

[rue_d_etropal]

FUD will only just do O gauge, certainly not gauge 1. Unless you just want a box of bits to fit together.

 

On the subject of WSF for OO, it is just opinion, not fact and a lot of people are very happy to have models in WSF.

 

For N gauge FUD does not actually cost that much more than WSF these days, but going up to OO and the price difference increases. If anyone actually asked I will switch on the FUD option. It is still a model designed as an aid to scratchbuilding, not a r2r model,so some small detail is not present.

 

There is also the question of painting and how well the FUD plastic will be in a few years time(it is NOT UV proof, so hardens and therefore can crack, no-one can be sure if or when, but it could happen). To paint FUD you might find that some paints are not as good as on other plastics and therefore there is still a certain amount of preperation. It is a case of weighing up benefits, retc against personal preference and ability to or being prepare to actually clean down surface.

Edited March 9, 2018 by rue_d_etropal

[mikeharvey22]

I can sympathise with Simon's original point. I did not expect all of his designs to have been test printed....nobody has that amount of spare cash to spend on a load of prints that they are never going to use. Not many people are modelling a specific train in multiple scales. I am sure that others also get approached to "give away" the .stl drawing to print at home. I have done this only once for a very obscure item. The recipient complained vociferously that his machine could not print it satisfactorily and that I should revisit the drawing!

[Nile]

I think the simple solution is to enable FUD for any model that can be printed in that material and let the customer decide. It's their money after all. It will save the bother of dealing with potentially lots of requests for FUD models.

[simon br blue]

Regarding the resizing of models whilst it is easy to resize using the software this is only part of the job. 

 

If I'm making the model smaller I find generally the model will not print in the same material because the original model will be made with detail and thickness's close to the materials limit.  The option is to either thicken the model and resize/remove some of the fine details or to choose a more detailed material.  If going from an original model printable in WSF 7mm to 4mm or 4mm to 2mm you can often rescale the model and then use FUD, HPSF or HDA for the smaller model.  If a model is 4mm FUD and you want to go to 2mm I've been able to do it by thickening some of the parts and using HDA  (resizing the model this small can cause a problem as the Shapeways software will some times remove details like rivets as they are too small to print).  An example below is of a resized J70 model that was originally drawn for 4mm and was enlarged to 7mm WSF reduced to 2mm HDA.  The 7mm version has some details removed to allow these to be printed separately in a finer material and the 2mm has some detail removed as its too small, no boiler to allow room for a mechanism and a roof added to increase strength.  I would where possible make models available in all practical materials - some potential purchasers will be looking for a cheap price where as others will be looking for quality and surface finish.

 

 

J70 Trams 2mm, 4mm, and 7mm by simon br blue, on Flickr

 

 

When resizing items to a larger scale it is generally easier some changes need to be made to thickness's to avoid a massive price rise.  Another area that is required I the adding of detail as some parts not visible or detailed in 4mm will show up in 7mm or 1/32 scale.  I've recently drawn a  16t mineral wagon chassis in 7mm and then rescaled it to 1/32 and added a body to it.  The chassis only required a some parts making thinner but the body have would need more work if drawn originally in 7mm - I actually drew it in 7mm but with a wall and detail thickness that would be near the limits of WSF when rescaled.  One final part of the resizing is the changes to the model for the scale being used - adjustment of the bearing holes and brake shoes and provision of couplings.  The way I add the sale parts is to save the proven sizes for bearings brake shoes and buffers for each scale and import these into the model to be confident they will work.  The picture below shows the wagon scaled 1/32 with the bearings and brake shoe shown separately below.

 

 

1to32 16t mineral bearing hole by simon br blue, on Flickr

 

 

Something this leads onto is printability.  A model can be resized but it doesn't mean it will it can be printed or that the printed model can be made into a running model.  Some models have tight clearances and this need to be looked at to make sure it will work. Worth checking if parts are printed separately that they will fit together as parts printed in WSF will often be very slightly wider/thicker when taking in account the slightly fluffy edge of the material. The 1/32 class 25 bogie had some tight clearances and a way of checking this was to draw the wheels in blender to check they would fit in the bogie, the picture below shows the bogie with the wheels fitted and the wheels shown in the drawing behind.

 

 

1to32 class 25 bogie by simon br blue, on Flickr

 

The subject of test printing models.  All of the models I made for sale have been test printed before making them for sale but I don't use Shapeways as a business.  I draw models that interest me and that I want to print for myself and only make models available if someone expresses an interest in a model I've made.  If I was going to make items available   I would use the techniques mentioned above to ensure that if someone purchases the model they could be confident that bearing and wheels would fit and work.  Some of my models use extra parts like plastic pipe for tank barrels and I've done test prints of the end caps to know that these will fit and often use and existing tank end or chassis to make the next similar wagon, I've currently got a 7mm molasses tank on order with Shapeways but because components have previously been printed I'm confident that it will work first time.  One of the problems with Shapeways (and the other printing partners) is that parts and models that have previously been printed successfully can suddenly be rejected by pre printing human checks.

 

 

Lastly regarding the accuracy of models, I'm not sure how it would work with if a model you order from a Shapeways shop isn't fit for purpose as I'm sure the print company will say that they have printed the correct size and accurately without defect and the problem lies with the model designer.  For model accuracy I will find or take many photos and where I can it try to fid the most accurate drawings available and still cross reference these with lots of photos.  The class 25 bogie and J70 were draw using works drawings from the national railway museum and the 16t mineral wagon uses excellent drawings included with the Constructing 5″ Gauge Wagons from HMRS - I purchased this book even though I don't have an interest in 5inch gauge because of the quality of the drawings.   Some drawings can have multiple issues and in some cased I've ended up having to find a side on picture that I can manipulate to work along side a poor quality drawing.  A lot of my modern wagons have started of using the BR wagon diagrams from the Barrowmore website, these are useful for basic dimensions but often lack detail or have inaccuracies (as they were only intended to provide dimensions and details for railways staff and not railway modellers 40 year in the future).

 

I hope my way of tacking 3D drawing and printing may be useful for others.