Plastic Locomotive Kits - A discussion and views to the future

[Nick C]

You've obviously never had to change a headlight bulb on a Citroen C5...

Was that the one they had on Fifth Gear, where the presenter did a full service on a Golf in the time it took the AA man to change the bulb on the Citroen?

 

Given that it's illegal to drive with a failed bulb, it's always baffled me why they were ever allowed to sell cars on which you can't change the bulbs by yourself, at the side of the road, using only the tools provided with the car.

 

But then you can now get cars that don't even have a spare wheel...

Edited March 13, 2018 by Nick C

[cctransuk]

Was that the one they had on Fifth Gear, where the presenter did a full service on a Golf in the time it took the AA man to change the bulb on the Citroen?

 

Given that it's illegal to drive with a failed bulb, it's always baffled me why they were ever allowed to sell cars on which you can't change the bulbs by yourself, at the side of the road, using only the tools provided with the car.

 

But then you can now get cars that don't even have a spare wheel...

 

.... and why?

 

I have an Insignia that came without a spare wheel - but was zero-rated for road tax on account of its fuel efficiency rating.

 

It was suggested to me, by a person who should know, that the car would not have been within the zero-rated category if it had to carry a spare wheel.

 

Nonetheless, I paid for and was supplied separately with a spare wheel, which the car has carried since new!

 

Nonesense, isn't it?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[The Johnster]

As long as you have access to someone who will come out and change your wheel for you, there is no need to carry a spare wheel, and I would certainly prefer to use the space used by the silly spacesaver spare for my own purposes and rely on roadside rescue.  

 

But would I really be happy to put my entire trust in roadside rescue?  Probably not, as I tend to go off the beaten track a bit, and out of phone range...

[cctransuk]

As long as you have access to someone who will come out and change your wheel for you, there is no need to carry a spare wheel ....

 

So - you get a puncture; call out the roadside rescue; he (or she) tells you your tyre is irrepairable. Presumably your car is loaded onto the trailer and you and the car are transported to the nearest tyre centre to have a new tyre fitted - assuming that they have the necessary tyre in stock and it's not Sunday.

 

Or - I think that I'd rather have a spare wheel in the boot, even if it is for emergency use only at a reduced speed.

 

Each to their own.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

[Craigw]

As long as you have access to someone who will come out and change your wheel for you, there is no need to carry a spare wheel, and I would certainly prefer to use the space used by the silly spacesaver spare for my own purposes and rely on roadside rescue.  

 

But would I really be happy to put my entire trust in roadside rescue?  Probably not, as I tend to go off the beaten track a bit, and out of phone range...

 

 

Someone coming out to help when you are 600 Km from anything in any direction?

 

Good luck.

[kevinlms]

Someone coming out to help when you are 600 Km from anything in any direction?

 

Good luck.

Yes, but will they bring a plastic loco kit with them, to while away the time? Since we seem to be along way off topic!

[The Johnster]

So - you get a puncture; call out the roadside rescue; he (or she) tells you your tyre is irrepairable. Presumably your car is loaded onto the trailer and you and the car are transported to the nearest tyre centre to have a new tyre fitted - assuming that they have the necessary tyre in stock and it's not Sunday.

 

Or - I think that I'd rather have a spare wheel in the boot, even if it is for emergency use only at a reduced speed.

 

Each to their own.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

 

Or he would go back to base/call out a mate and provide a spare wheel; I was envisioning a complete wheel change, not an attempt to change or repair a tyre at the roadside.  The cost of this is theoretically included in your membership fee of whatever roadside rescue organisation you subscribe to, in the same way as any other roadside repair.

 

The type of rescue where your car is loaded onto the rescue vehicle normally includes onward transport to your home or destination, where you can engage a local dealer to replace the tyre in your own time at your own expense.  

 

I agree that you have pointed out serious faults with the system, but the idea of replacing wheels with a spare by the roadside is not entirely practicable either.  It presupposes that the spare is available, not buried in luggage, that it is correctly inflated, not worn, and that the person changing the wheel is competent to do so in poor visibility and inclement weather conditions.  Many drivers are not competent to do this, and some are not physically strong enough to loosen wheel nuts especially ones that have been factory tightened, or competent to replace them the correct way around, which is a vital safety requirement.  

 

The UK driving test does not include the ability to safely use a jack, and the ones provided with most vehicles are only really usable in perfect circumstances on a level surface rarely available in the real situation.  Whenever I acquire a vehicle, I remove the hub caps and ensure that I am able to loosen the wheel nuts; this is often quite a struggle but I'd rather not do it on the side of an unlit road in the pouring rain.  I regard a bottle jack as essential equipment to be carried at all times.

 

Your spare wheel in the boot will be of no use if you cannot get the wheelnuts off or cannot deploy the silly little jack because the ground is not level and it's probably rusted solid anyway; you will need to call out the rescue service.  Back to square one.  Self repairing/inflating tyres exist and are the (expensive) answer, unless you've really ripped them to bits!

 

Bit academic for me now.  I've been diagnosed with sleep apnoea, which I have to declare on my license; this has put insurance rates beyond my pocket, which I feel is a bit unfair as I've never been asleep while in control of a motor vehicle, but I now no longer have the confidence to feel at ease driving anyway.  I am 66 and live in Wales, so I get free buses!

 

And prescriptions. yay National Assembly and English funding!!!

 

Coat?

[cctransuk]

Or he would go back to base/call out a mate and provide a spare wheel; I was envisioning a complete wheel change, not an attempt to change or repair a tyre at the roadside.  The cost of this is theoretically included in your membership fee of whatever roadside rescue organisation you subscribe to, in the same way as any other roadside repair.

 

The type of rescue where your car is loaded onto the rescue vehicle normally includes onward transport to your home or destination, where you can engage a local dealer to replace the tyre in your own time at your own expense.  

 

I agree that you have pointed out serious faults with the system, but the idea of replacing wheels with a spare by the roadside is not entirely practicable either.  It presupposes that the spare is available, not buried in luggage, that it is correctly inflated, not worn, and that the person changing the wheel is competent to do so in poor visibility and inclement weather conditions.  Many drivers are not competent to do this, and some are not physically strong enough to loosen wheel nuts especially ones that have been factory tightened, or competent to replace them the correct way around, which is a vital safety requirement.  

 

The UK driving test does not include the ability to safely use a jack, and the ones provided with most vehicles are only really usable in perfect circumstances on a level surface rarely available in the real situation.  Whenever I acquire a vehicle, I remove the hub caps and ensure that I am able to loosen the wheel nuts; this is often quite a struggle but I'd rather not do it on the side of an unlit road in the pouring rain.  I regard a bottle jack as essential equipment to be carried at all times.

 

Your spare wheel in the boot will be of no use if you cannot get the wheelnuts off or cannot deploy the silly little jack because the ground is not level and it's probably rusted solid anyway; you will need to call out the rescue service.  Back to square one.  Self repairing/inflating tyres exist and are the (expensive) answer, unless you've really ripped them to bits!

 

Bit academic for me now.  I've been diagnosed with sleep apnoea, which I have to declare on my license; this has put insurance rates beyond my pocket, which I feel is a bit unfair as I've never been asleep while in control of a motor vehicle, but I now no longer have the confidence to feel at ease driving anyway.  I am 66 and live in Wales, so I get free buses!

 

And prescriptions. yay National Assembly and English funding!!!

 

Coat?

 

I've changed wheels using the on-board spare wheel and jack quite a few times since I started driving in the 1960s - a practical mind will always find a way of achieving this. (An offcut of steel tube to fit over the wheelnut wrench / jack handle, carried with the jack, is one useful tip).

 

I am now coming up to my 69th birthday and - God willing - I will continue to 'go equipped' to get back on my way in tens of minutes, rather than fractions of a day!

 

Each to their own!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited March 18, 2018 by cctransuk

[grahame]

 I am 66 and live in Wales, so I get free buses!

 

And prescriptions. yay National Assembly and English funding!!!

 

Coat?

Old git bus passes are free in England, and if you live in London you get a free Freedom Pass that allows free tube, train, tram and bus travel.

 

And prescriptions are free in England for over 60s and those with certain chronic illnesses.

 

G.

[BernardTPM]

The prescriptions are free for the under 60s too in Wales.

[grahame]

The prescriptions are free for the under 60s too in Wales.

 

I had free prescriptions in England when I was under 60 - they issue exemption cards like confetti.

 

G.

[BernardTPM]

Maybe, but no certificate's needed. Mind, the bus passes are only valid in Wlaes (though to the ends of routes that start or terminate in Wales), so swings and roundabouts as ever!

Anyway, plastic loco kits - good fun and great conversion fodder, but an ideal way for a manufacturer to throw away money.

[Graham456]

Anyway, plastic loco kits - good fun and great conversion fodder, but an ideal way for a manufacturer to throw away money.

Fully agree injection moulding equipment is so expensive, you need to squeeze out a few thousand to get your money back.

Cheaper is to go down the route of dean sidings and golden arrow with a resin body on a RTR chassis, very similar to make up sticking bits on to a body and just as enjoyable to build I have found. But do you see thousands of these resin kit builds on layouts at shows...NO!

So would the sales be enough?

Edited March 19, 2018 by Graham456

[Legend]

Meanwhile back on topic.

 

If you want to encourage a new generation of modellers to build kits there needs to be reasonable certainty they will work. To me this means a plastic body kit on metal ready to assemble chassis . People are prepared to have a go with plastic as a medium but not white metal , brass etches or anything that involves soldering . That’s another step up in perceived complexity.

 

From my point of view the kit should hopefully be less expensive than RTR, but not necessarily so , if the kit represents the only means I have of getting the model I want.

 

Good discussion. I hadn’t realised the other thread had run its course

Edited March 19, 2018 by Legend

[sem34090]

The other thread hasn't run its course just yet, I've just tried to redirect it back on topic!

[Steamport Southport]

Meanwhile back on topic.

 

If you want to encourage a new generation of modellers to build kits there needs to be reasonable certainty they will work. To me this means a plastic body kit on metal ready to assemble chassis . People are prepared to have a go with plastic as a medium but not white metal , brass etches or anything that involves soldering . That’s another step up in perceived complexity.

 

From my point of view the kit should hopefully be less expensive than RTR, but not necessarily so , if the kit represents the only means I have of getting the model I want.

 

Good discussion. I hadn’t realised the other thread had run its course

 

That is where the idea falls down.

 

Remember when DC Kits made DMUs and EMUs? After you have got all the parts together then you are paying much more than for an equivalent RTR model. It works out over £150 for a 2 car unit for all the parts/paint/transfers/etc. Then you have to build it.

 

Add up all the bits here to see what I mean.

 

http://www.dckits-devideos.co.uk/shop/kits_modelling/plastic_dmu_emu_coaching_stock_kits_from_dc_kits_incudes_locomotives_/diesel_multiple_units/original_1954_derby_lightweight_diesel_multiple_unit_2_car_unit_.php

 

 

Now how much is a Bachmann DMU? Not long ago some shops were selling them for about the price of a Black Beetle. You can still get some for about £90.

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I really like the DC Kits units, I have several. Price wasn't even a factor as at the time it was virtually the only way to get a decent DMU/EMU. But unfortunately I doubt that anything similar would be viable today.

 

 

 

Jason

[sem34090]

You can't even get DC kits now, and I only discovered them after the myriad problems they suffered - a fire, if I remember rightly?

 

I appreciate why Charlie can no longer offer them for sale, but I am still slightly annoyed when looking at a show programme and seeing 'DC Kits' on there and not being able to get hold of the EMU kit I would rather like. For the basic kit, £30 or thereabouts (as listed on their website) is pretty reasonable.

 

Mind you, I suppose they prove the point that it is much better to be in the RTR game than the plastic kit one, much as I wish that wasn't the case. I still think it would have to be, for example, Airfix producing something for the NRM. Now Hornby appear to be doing NRM stuff again this is, perhaps a possibility.

[Steamport Southport]

£30 is reasonable until you pay for the rest of it. Even without the motor you are talking over £80.

 

Wheels, interior, cab detailing pack, paint, transfers, etc. all add up.

 

 

 

Jason

[Jeff Smith]

Even building a plastic kit bodied loco will not be cheap.  The Branchlines complete kit of City of Truro costs around 100 pounds, the Dapol body, which needs an incredible amount of work, is around 10 pounds.....you can see it in post#25 of this thread plus some other fine examples, http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/61345-question-re-airfix-loco-kits/page-1. However although a lot of scraping was required to get rid of the molded handrails, thick boiler bands etc., the actual finish was quite smooth compared to 3D prints.  

 

This is unfortunately typical in that I had just about finished it when the RTR one was anounced.  The same happened with the Metropolitan/LT BoBo.  I scratch built the body from styrene, the cheap part, and mounted it on Bull-Ant bogies, the expensive part, then Heljan announced the RTR version - who would have thought such a relatively obscure prototype with only 20 produced would be selected!!!

[Butler Henderson]

ARCs approach was IMO correct - offering resin bodies to fit RTR chassis, its a pity no one took the range on and further developed it. The costs of producing a plastic kit are significant and its difficult to judge that any would return enough sales to cover the costs given the models that would sell in any quantity are available RTR anyway.

Edited March 20, 2018 by Butler Henderson

[doilum]

In a world full of entrepreneurs looking for their next project, and dedicated enthusiasts often willing to subsidize a model to meet their needs, the fact that noone has launched a new plastic loco kit in decades explains itself. Now we are back on track, can I repeat my original question, which prototype would you like,, or think might sell in numbers.

[polybear]

My record on a Peugeot 306 was I think, about 90 seconds.  That's from opening the car to release the bonnet to locking the car after checking it worked.

 

The Ford Focus N/S I have got down to about 20 minutes (no, you DON'T have to take the battery out).  I think a Mondeo headlight once took me an hour and a half....

 

MG6?  Bumper off job, apparently.

As for some Volvo's....

 

 

Bit academic for me now.  I've been diagnosed with sleep apnoea, which I have to declare on my license; this has put insurance rates beyond my pocket, which I feel is a bit unfair as I've never been asleep while in control of a motor vehicle, but I now no longer have the confidence to feel at ease driving anyway.  

 

It seems to be the case now that many insurance companies are happy with the response that "you have a DVLA notifiable condition - you've told DVLA accordingly and they're happy.  No in-depth medical questions etc. and no loading of premium.  If your company loads your premium - go elsewhere.

[sem34090]

F***** Scotsman? Kitmaster never got round to it, but I would imagine it to be saleable through the NRM. That and/or an A4. I am thinking along the lines of something similar to the old kitmaster kits. They must still sell to some extent, otherwise they would be out of production, but perhaps because (due to their age) their market has decreased because people know how hard it will be to get one to even have the ability to be pushed, compared with the same kits when they were brand new.

[Steamport Southport]

In a world full of entrepreneurs looking for their next project, and dedicated enthusiasts often willing to subsidize a model to meet their needs, the fact that noone has launched a new plastic loco kit in decades explains itself. Now we are back on track, can I repeat my original question, which prototype would you like,, or think might sell in numbers.

 

That's the problem. Sell in numbers. If it's going to sell then it surely would already be available RTR so it's pointless making as a kit that is made to be a cheap way into model railways.

 

 

If you are looking to sell plastic models as a recreational hobby then I would totally avoid OO gauge and go for one of the big scales. Plastic kit builders generally aren't interested in small models, they want as much detail as possible and a challenge. Look at the military models made by Tamiya or the large scale 1/48 and 1/24 scale aircraft. Much more interesting than a shake the box Spitfire that you can build in an hour. But it wouldn't be cheap.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Jeff Smith]

I am not a ship modeller but Trumpeter sells a 1/200 scale plastic kit of the Bismark for a list price of $400 plus $45 for metal gun barrels and screws and another $300 for stick-on deck veneers and etched details. Discounted this can be had for $470.....one piece hull 50" long.

 

I wonder how many they sell?