Which switch(es)?

[sjp23480]

Calling all you electronics experts

 

I am starting to think about building a control panel, but I am trying to figure out which switches I want to use to control the point motors. No so complicated you think?

 

I am using two types of point motor:

 

1. Peco solenoids that require a momentary/passing contact (for Peco points)

 

2. Conrad stall motors, that need a constant supply to lock the point blades in place (for Rocoline points, similar to Tillig)

 

I would like to use switches in the panel that look/feel the same, am thinking centre off rocker switches. The orientation of the switch indicates the route setting of the point. But......I my technical know how is limited and am having some difficulty identifying appropriate components on Rapid, Amazon, Maplin, etc....

 

Am I correct in thinking I need "(on) off (on)" for the passing contact switches and "on off on" to give a constant supply to the stall motors?

 

Grateful for any assistance,

Steve

Edited March 11, 2018 by sjp23480

[Pete the Elaner]

I believe they are the correct switch designations.

You don''t need a centre off for the stall motors since the points will only ever be switched one way or the other.

I recommend using a capacitor discharge unit for the Peco point motors. This will help to throw them more reliably & also reduce the back EMF spark produced when opening the contact again, which would burn the switch contacts away.

[young37215]

I am also building a control panel for my layout. This has circa 40 Peco solenoid motors that will be powered by an old Guagemaster T4 transformer and CDU where I need switches for the panel. There are a wide range of Off/On/Off (SPDT) switches available with a similarly wide range of prices!.

 

I would prefer to buy British but given the volume I need, I am tempted by Ebay who have a large number of Chinese made switches at 5 for £1 including postage. This compares favourably with British made ones selling in excess of £1 for each switch. Provided I buy switches with sufficient capacity to cope with the output from the CDU, I think I should be OK. Does anyone have a view on this approach?

[66C]

Hi Steve

 

One small point about the Conrad motors - they are not stall motors as the current is switched off by their internal switch at the end of their travel.

 

Regards.

[cpman46]

Calling all you electronics experts

 

I am starting to think about building a control panel, but I am trying to figure out which switches I want to use to control the point motors. No so complicated you think?

 

I am using two types of point motor:

 

1. Peco solenoids that require a momentary/passing contact (for Peco points)

 

2. Conrad stall motors, that need a constant supply to lock the point blades in place (for Rocoline points, similar to Tillig)

 

I would like to use switches in the panel that look/feel the same, am thinking centre off rocker switches. The orientation of the switch indicates the route setting of the point. But......I my technical know how is limited and am having some difficulty identifying appropriate components on Rapid, Amazon, Maplin, etc....

 

Am I correct in thinking I need "(on) off (on)" for the passing contact switches and "on off on" to give a constant supply to the stall motors?

 

Grateful for any assistance,

Steve

Hi Steve

The momentary (on) -off- (on) switches for the solenoid motors will always return to the centre off position so will not indicate the route setting of the point. You would need an alternative way of showing the way the point is set e.g. using LEDs set in the mimic panel trackwork.

 

Whilst I appreciate young37215's comment about cheap switches from China all my current panel projects use switches from Rapid Online as below:

 

http://www.rapidonline.com/salecom-t8014a-sebq-h-spdt-on-off-on-sprung-min-toggle-switch-75-0086 for the sprung toggle and http://www.rapidonline.com/salecom-t8011-sebq-h-dpdt-on-on-min-toggle-switch-75-0087  for the on/off toggles for the Conrad motors.

 

Regards

Mike

[young37215]

 

 

Whilst I appreciate young37215's comment about cheap switches from China all my current panel projects use switches from Rapid Online as below:

 

 

 

Can I ask why you use the more expensive switch, presumably there is some quality/safety rationale behind your decision?.

 

I am not wedded to cheap switches, far from it if I am compromising my control panel or personal safety. I just want to understand the differences before I make my buying decision.  

[cpman46]

Can I ask why you use the more expensive switch, presumably there is some quality/safety rationale behind your decision?.

 

I am not wedded to cheap switches, far from it if I am compromising my control panel or personal safety. I just want to understand the differences before I make my buying decision.  

I have built control panels for customers for a long time in some cases replacing existing panels where cheap switches after a period of continuous use had failed or had started to fail. My panels are built to my standard using components that I expect to last the life of the panel taking into consideration likely operating frequency, storage conditions, fixed or portable layouts etc.

 

 

Whilst cheap switches from China or elsewhere may be perfectly adequate for some uses I prefer to use components with fully documented traceability and quality but this is a purely personal decision.

 

When quoting for a panel I always inform my customers as to why the costs are as they are since there are some who question why I don't use XYZ's cheaper option.

 

Essentially you make the decision. If you are happy with the cheaper options then you are perfectly at liberty to use them. As far as switches go there will be no safety implications since we are dealing with voltages no greater than 24 to 30V dc.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Regards

Mike

[DCB]

Interesting article in Model Railroad Hobbiest (http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/31686) about using super neo magnets to lock points without over centre springs.

 

However basically your two sets of points / point motors are incompatible.  

To recover the situation I would find some nice cheap slider on/on switches, eBay, local market B&Q and some push buttons.  

Fit a slider and a push button to every point on a mimic diagram.    Move the switch and press the push button to energise.  The clever bit is not to wire up the push button on the stall motor. That way ergonomically both sets of points operate the same way but electrically they operate entirely differently.

I like rotary switches and push buttons or electric pencil but you can't use stall motors with electric pencil without a lot of ridiculous complication.

See pic for a panel in use for past 30+ years.  It pivots out up to 90 degrees if required but usually remains vertical to save width.

Edited March 12, 2018 by DavidCBroad

[sjp23480]

Everyone,

 

Many thanks for all your comments and insights, very useful.

 

Pete: I will definitely be using a CDU to improve the throw.

 

Bill: I didn't realise the Conrad motors had an internal switch.

 

David: I did realise the compatibility challenges, but picked up the Conrad motors before recent price increases, the cost of doing this with Peco motors, with locking point motor mount and polarity switch was prohibitive at the time. I will also take a look at the article you recommended.

 

Mike: Didn't realise the (on) off (on) switches would return to centre off, not sure about the LED to provide route indication? Have to say your control panel looks brilliant. Thanks also for the links to the Rapid site.

 

Generally I favour using reliable components, I don't fancy having to replace switches at all, if I can help it!

 

Thanks again everyone,

Steve

[kevinlms]

I have built control panels for customers for a long time in some cases replacing existing panels where cheap switches after a period of continuous use had failed or had started to fail. My panels are built to my standard using components that I expect to last the life of the panel taking into consideration likely operating frequency, storage conditions, fixed or portable layouts etc.

 

IMG_0008 (1024x768).jpg

 

Whilst cheap switches from China or elsewhere may be perfectly adequate for some uses I prefer to use components with fully documented traceability and quality but this is a purely personal decision.

 

When quoting for a panel I always inform my customers as to why the costs are as they are since there are some who question why I don't use XYZ's cheaper option.

 

Essentially you make the decision. If you are happy with the cheaper options then you are perfectly at liberty to use them. As far as switches go there will be no safety implications since we are dealing with voltages no greater than 24 to 30V dc.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Regards

Mike

Regarding using reasonable quality switches. Anyone operating a business (or business like, in the sense of charging something for building it for a hobby), needs to make sure that there are no warranty issues. Nothing kills a reputation more than rework & revisits, for saving a small amount on materials. Customers sometimes tell me, that I should of given them a list of materials and they would have purchased them cheaper elsewhere.

 

The obvious problem is, if these parts are substandard, who is going to pay for any rework that may be required? People are welcome to use cheap stuff, if responsible for any issues, but a business cannot do so.

[Dagworth]

There are ways to use a normal single pole change-over switch to control a PECO solenoid motor, each point ends up with its own CDU but the switches will indicate which way the points are set. 

 

 

Andi

[Ron Solly]

and as an variation to Dagworth's/ Andi's  drawing , have a read of this   http://brian-lambert.co.uk/Electrical.html#One

[Junctionmad]

I was going to say , use some simple electronics to remove the different switch configurations needed and therefore use a standard spdt switch for all point motor types. But the previous posts outline that solution

 

As for Chinese switches , the implicit assumption being their of inferior quality , that’s not my experience and most likely the “ traceable “ ones are made in China anyway

[John ks]

About a year ago I decided if I could come up with a way to control twin coil point motors using a DPDT switch

 

Here is my reinvention of the wheel

For the capacitor I used a 4700 micro Farad, 25V (35V rated cap might be a safer bet) & the Led resistor is 2K2

 

 

The Leds show the charge state of the capacitor  & if they are placed on a mimic pane as shown they also show the direction the point is thrown(the Leds don't show the actual position of the point but show where it should be, Eg if the point is changed by hand then the indication will be out of sync with the point)

 

When first switched on C1 is charged through S1A & led1 lights up

When S1 is thrown C1 discharges into Sol A& the point changes & Led1 goes off; C2 is charged through S1B & Led2 lights up

 

John

 

PS If this circuit has been previously been shown then credit should go to that person.

[sjp23480]

Andi and John,

 

This all looks pretty straightforward, even an electronics numpty like me should be able to work this out. I particularly like the benefit of having the LED provide route indication as the panels will control concealed storage roads.

 

Junctionmad, I think I will likely pay over the odds for the switches, but that will give me some peace of mind.

 

Thanks all for your comments,

Steve

[Ron Solly]

    A similar method using SCR's with capacitors was published in 1994 in Model Railroad Electronics  by Peter J Thorne

and then there is this   http://modelrailmusings.weebly.com/point-motors-and-toggle-switches.html

 

[BWsTrains]

Calling all you electronics experts

 

I am starting to think about building a control panel, but I am trying to figure out which switches I want to use to control the point motors. No so complicated you think?

 

I am using two types of point motor:

 

1. Peco solenoids that require a momentary/passing contact (for Peco points)

 

2. Conrad stall motors, that need a constant supply to lock the point blades in place (for Rocoline points, similar to Tillig)

 

I would like to use switches in the panel that look/feel the same, am thinking centre off rocker switches. The orientation of the switch indicates the route setting of the point. But......I my technical know how is limited and am having some difficulty identifying appropriate components on Rapid, Amazon, Maplin, etc....

 

Am I correct in thinking I need "(on) off (on)" for the passing contact switches and "on off on" to give a constant supply to the stall motors?

 

Grateful for any assistance,

Steve

Hi,

 

I have 15 points, mix of Peco / Hornby, all Peco point motors and built this device from readily available micro switches, very inexpensive yet perfectly reliable in over 2 years operation. In contrast, my first try with button switches hit snags almost immediately with switches burning out their contacts.

 

 

The micro switches were by Matsushita, rated 3 Amps at 250VAC and about  AUD 1.00 each. I went for robust / inexpensive solution as 6 grandchildren use the whole layout with me. Amazingly they've learned not to "lean" on the switches but the CDU design doesn't recharge until the switch is released anyway

 

I'm using a single "TalkingElectronics" CDU, powered by 15V AC which with 4400uF on board throws paired crossover points seamlessly.

 

Colin