Hill Top Quarries

[Fat Controller]

The testing I've carried out so far suggests thread will be fine, but I think I'll test using nylon thread as the those used so far begin to fray after repeated use. My preference remains with using fishing line so I'm waiting on taking delivery of a few samples of 0.4 to 0.5mm braided fishing line, once they arrive I'll be able to check the suitability of using the turned brass motor shaft connectors as a drum, and I do suspect that I'll need to to source a larger drum, in which case the connectors will still be useful for swapping out drums. It may also transpire that using a larger drum will require a slower gear box, the current motor uses a '200RPM' gearbox but the speed response is pretty decent. I can always try a 60RPM equivalent if the 200 doesn't do the job.

It might be worth having a look at something called (for no obvious reason) Parachute Cord, which is used by people who make necklaces and such like. The spool of it that I've got in front of me is black, and marked '30lbs. .006', the former being the breaking point and the latter presumably being the fraction of an inch. This would be alright for securing wagon sheets, but perhaps a light light for a haulage rope. The suppliers (www.thesilvercorporation.co.uk ) may list heavier gauges.

[Zunnan]

I've been looking at synthetic cords such as parachute cord, one which stood out in particular is waxed polyester; the kind of stuff used for leather stitching and repairs such as for car seats. More materials added to the must test list!

[Zunnan]

Over the Bank Holiday weekend I've had a bit more time to tinker with bits and pieces. First up was figuring a simple way to mount all of the required guide wheels. Going to need quite a few of those, so batch building with a simple jig seemed like a good idea...

 

 

 

I made enough parts to produce 5 guides for now, which is the number needed for each side of the incline; though 3 is sufficient to actually test. They're simply 1/16th brass angle with a 1.6mm brass tube soldered on below to act as a basic axle locator, the reversed N gauge wheelset then slides in between two brackets and the whole assembly is tacked down with a track pin in each corner. With the top 3 in place its ready to take a train or two...

 

 

 

So I mounted the deflection wheels, and three guides with a view to testing the incline top on the layout itself. Once the motor is fitted...

 

 

 

A simple mounting bracket was codged together from some aluminium angle tapped to take a 12BA bolt which fixes the gearbox to the angle. The hardest part was actually threading around the deflection wheel!

 

 

 

Testing this time included using Kadees, the transition at the incline top is far too severe for tension locks to even be considered. Basic operation is fairly simple - the runner propels a raft up with the couplers 'delayed', this allows the locomotive to draw the wagons off hands free. Going back down, the loco propels the wagons back to the runner in 'delayed' mode, and the weight of the runner draws the wagons off the locomotive down the incline. Simples!

Edited August 4, 2022 by Zunnan

[5050]

I like it!  Seems to be coming together well.

 

Loco needs a repaint though.  Having it in that livery just takes the biscuit!

[Zunnan]

Crumbs...

 

Actually, my plan is to keep the lined blue livery but rid the company name. Two of the ABs I have coming are blue as well, the CR one will get the same treatment as the Peckett while my plans for the Fina is to end up an unlined faded older version of the CR loco...hopefully. I've become kind of attached to the Peckett in this livery though, its just too adorable to deface!

[Zunnan]

The first of the test subjects has arrived, this one being a non steel braided fishing line sold as 'Firesilk', its the 0.4mm 62lb flavour. Passes the stretch test with flying colours, a 2m length doesn't budge and it spools on to the 8mm drum well. More importantly, it operates so much more responsively than the thread does. We shall see how well it lasts being stored on the drum...

 

 

 

Quite a pleasing metallic brown hue to it, but its on the light side and could perhaps do with darkening. I'm not sure how well it'll behave if it is saturated with ink to darken it up, I don't have anything to hand at present, but the size of it is pretty much on the money.

[Zunnan]

Busy work schedule has meant progress has slowed somewhat, but there has been one or two areas where work is progressing; mostly the incline fiddle yard. This is going to be a simple affair to keep things compact, tight radii to get back to four rail in minimal space and allow for 3-4 wagon workings. Because its on a continuation of the 1:9 and the runner wagon will be at the bottom end of the hill, there will be no pointwork or cassette system. 3 or 4 wagons on Kadees can quite easily and quickly be lifted out by hand, and that greatly simplifies requirements on the track. Its basically going to wind up as one big re-railing ramp.

 

 

The 3 to 4 rail diverging piece was cobbled up very quickly indeed. Drawn up in about 10 minutes at 24" radius and 1" separation, the code 75 bullhead copperclad assembly took perhaps a further 90 minutes. And it only took that long because I wanted to belt and braces it by doing the check rails in code 100 to make sure that anything coming down that grade is guided the intended way!

 

The fiddle yard extension is coming along as well, a missed club meet this week has meant I have no alignment dowels to hand...so tracklaying will have to wait.

[7APT7]

Hi

 

Great Thread, great mechanism for the trucks, shared rails looks interesting...

 

Regards

Jamie

[Hesperus]

How have I missed this?  I live in the cottages that could form the backscene to this layout.

 

Excellent work so far, you've really captured the winding house.

 

As always I found this while looking for a different thread to leave this item from the village newsletter.

 

[Zunnan]

What a fantastic little story. It makes me want to look into providing ambient sounds and to use a dull thud for the signalling bells.

 

I do feel quite guilty that building this has fallen into a bit of a (well, a complete) hiatus, modelling much in general over the past 18 months has taken quite a back seat, mostly just down to work fatigue. The layout strikes as a most forlorn object where it has resided in the dining room for so long, I really must pull my finger out and crack on with it! On the plus side I've been able to source and squirrel away a pair of the appropriate LNWR brake vans which will sacrifice their bodies, as well as another matching mechanism (and several spares) for the other half of the incline so that I can operate both sides. The firesilk thread has also done very well being wound on its tiny drum for so long, so I think the question of what material to use as rope is comprehensively answered.

 

I also think I've figured out what to use as a scenic break on the other end of the layout, though it does move away from reality somewhat...There is some really fantastically ugly monolithic concrete remains at varying parts of the site, so I am siding with using such structures to hide as much as possible, along with utilising a rusted bridge to nowhere visible in the D J Norton photo of the winding house. A truncated abandoned narrow gauge line of some description, but I really would like to avoid the usual 00-9 or Z gauge approach. I'm sure somewhere back in the mists of time I found a supplier of 2' gauge temporary panelled track, but I can't remember if that was 4mm scale or not, or who said supplier was! I know of the Auhagen bits and pieces which are exactly what I'm thinking of but being H0 scale its going to be a bit undersized. The Auhagen kits may well be the route I'll take in the end, but I'm sure I found another supplier and their kit was metal rather than plastic. Given the stalled modelling on this layout, time isn't exactly pressing to rediscover it, but I would like to have a bit of a dig around and get this layout back on the boil.

[Gordon A]

Any further developments?

 

Gordon A

[Zunnan]

Not that much which really worth posting an update over, more borne out of frustration than a lack of progress, but that frustration has resulted in a lack of progress.

 

I was originally going to build the engine shed at the top of the incline opposite the winding house, with a loading plant arrangement on the high level behind, but the more I planned and laid out temporary structures the more cluttered it became. The real location is desolate and sparse, so I felt it better to remove the engine shed to the high level and to leave the incline top as its own entity. The upper level track has been laid to reflect the changes, which is where the frustration builds in. Peco bullhead points worked fine with none of the shorting issues people noted until precicely the moment I fixed them in place. More accurately several months after they were fixed in place and I then powered up the layout to test it again. Just about everything shorts on both points laid in the prone to problem locations people are reporting. I'll admit my issues are worstened by a gradient change thought the pointwork, so it is more self inflicted. But I literally chucked a dust sheet at it and have left it sitting again rather than what I should have done in converting those points to a more conventional electrofrog arrangement.

[Alex TM]

On 01/10/2019 at 18:47, Zunnan said:

somewhere back in the mists of time I found a supplier of 2' gauge temporary panelled track

Hi,

 

Sorry, but I have only just noticed this thread for the first time.  If we are thinking of the same product, I am sure I saw this for sale via 'Freestone Model Accessories' a few years ago at a show.  If I remember correctly it was composed of white-metal castings.

 

Hope that's of help (if more than a little late).

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[Asterix2012]

2 hours ago, Alex TM said:

Hi,

 

Sorry, but I have only just noticed this thread for the first time.  If we are thinking of the same product, I am sure I saw this for sale via 'Freestone Model Accessories' a few years ago at a show.  If I remember correctly it was composed of white-metal castings.

 

Hope that's of help (if more than a little late).

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

They still have a website not had a chance to dig about it yet

http://www.freestonemodel.co.uk/index.htm

[Zunnan]

I haven't forgotten about this one, I keep promising myself to get back at it...honest!

 

One thing which I'm hoping to reignite the fire is this little project, which has quite a nice relevance to the layout being as the prototype worked Clee Hill. Who'd have thought that an RTR model would ever appear for somewhere like this?!

 

 

 

Lovely little model, made all the better knowing its more at home than the W4 Pecketts and Hattons AB tanks I was going to be using. I still can't believe I missed this one when they were available, it took a while to cotton on and by then it was too late! Its taken a while to track one down, but hey ho! Better late than never!

 

First off though...swimming in grease and oil! Easily fixed. Next up is that against my usual preference for DC for small layouts, Hill Top is going DCC primarily for the slight improvement in reliability the higher track voltage gives for pickup on small locomotives. The Sentinel is perfect for this, being 8 pin equipped. Or so I thought! I have to admit to not being too keen on the bright green PCB arrangement in this model, and the blanking plug is bad enough, but every 8 pin decoder I put in just made the situation worse for a layout where slow movements (at least in my mind) will give you even longer to stare at that monstrosity inside. I was going to sound fit this one, but every video I watched put me right off that idea with the highly visible innards on show. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love this dinky little model...but it needs some modernisation!

 

 

 

First up, while cleaning out all of the excess oil and grease, I may have 'accidentally' de-soldered the PCB...

 

 

 

I know a lot of people knock Lais decoders, but the Lais 860031 next18 conversion board opens up SO many possibilities for little locomotives like this. Best £4.50 I ever spent at an exhibition, to be honest.

 

 

 

Out with the old, in with the new. The size difference between the old PCB and 8 pin blanking plug vs the Lais next 18 board fitted with a Gaugemaster OMNI decoder for testing. It works a treat, and being as this model has the N Gauge 'supercreep' motor inside, an effectively N Gauge installation is rather more in keeping. The entire DCC fit is now around a third of the size that the old DC kit took up. It works brilliantly with the OMNI, and those who've seen inside these models will notice the machined groove in the chassis weight and will know whats coming next! Lets see how it fares with a Loksound V5!

 

 

 

To facilitate a less obtrusive DCC sound fit, I milled out a 10mm wide 3mm deep groove in the chassis block to fit a 26x14x7 bass enhanced speaker into the cab front. I also rounded the top edge off for a tight fit into the roof space. Yes, it will foul the cab front windows, but a pile of coal on the outside will also do the same job as per one of the photos of 47181 at Clee Hill with coal piled high. While I wait for the V5 to arrive, I've mocked it all up to make sure the speaker remains as unobtrusive as possible.

 

 

 

 

 

Speaker wiring to be tidied once I know where it needs routing to, but on the whole its turned out to be quite a tidy little installation which doesn't intrude as much as the original PCB. I'm now wondering about fitting a stay alive and finding somewhere to hide the extra gubbins for that. Having converted to next 18 there is certainly more room to play with!

Edited August 4, 2022 by Zunnan
reinstating images

[Zunnan]

On 25/06/2020 at 14:48, Alex TM said:

If we are thinking of the same product, I am sure I saw this for sale via 'Freestone Model Accessories' a few years ago at a show.  If I remember correctly it was composed of white-metal castings.

 

I wish I could remember which it was, the online images I found back then were very good indeed. I remember adding the site to my favourites at the time, but that PC is long since expired unfortunately.

 

I was at one point entertaining the idea of the Busch feldbahn system, which would certainly give the impression of a larger site away from the confines of this little layout. I do want to portray it in its terminal decline though, so adding in the complexity of a second operation within the layout I think would overwhelm things a bit. Its going to be the rot and ruin approach for this one, and to be honest I think the Auhagen trackage sticking out of he weeds will probably do the trick...that is afterall my final memories of how the Minworth system looked in the early '90s in its partially lifted state before it was all carted off.

[Ruston]

Which sound project will you be using in the Sentinel? I've listened to a couple on Youtube videos and one sounded far better than the other. I just can't remember which was which now.

[Zunnan]

1 hour ago, Ruston said:

Which sound project will you be using in the Sentinel? I've listened to a couple on Youtube videos and one sounded far better than the other. I just can't remember which was which now.

 

I've plumbed for the Wheeltappers project for now, Richard Croft of Roads and Rails uses it quite nicely in this video. Most of the other sound projects that I've looked at seem to use a more generic 2 cylinder sound with the chuff rate greatly increased.

 

I am also giving some US sound files some consideration. Shays and Heislers in particular for their much stronger bark and natural willingness to rev highly, not too dissimilarly to a Sentinel. So if the Wheeltappers doesn't suit that is most likely the direction I'll direct my gaze as I'm not over keen on the sped up 2cyl alternatives.

[Ruston]

Thanks. It does sound pretty good and I think that is the one  was thinking of. Shame he doesn't do the sound for Zimo decoders. I have only ever bought one of those Loksound ones and I didn't like the long ribbon and plug, which takes up a lot of space. I like Zimo because they use proper individual wires that can be cut, shortened and soldered direct as necessary.

[Zunnan]

1 hour ago, Ruston said:

Thanks. It does sound pretty good and I think that is the one  was thinking of. Shame he doesn't do the sound for Zimo decoders. I have only ever bought one of those Loksound ones and I didn't like the long ribbon and plug, which takes up a lot of space. I like Zimo because they use proper individual wires that can be cut, shortened and soldered direct as necessary.

 

This is pretty much where my reasoning behind replacing the PCB with a Lais 860031 board comes in; I saw the mass of wiring in other sound fitted Sentinels which retain their 8 pin plug and wiring harness and didn't really want that here.

 

The ability to lean on next18 gives so much more flexibility and choice with decoders, its fast becoming the N gauge standard and plugs direct due to the obvious space constraints of N. The only wiring to deal with now being that to the speaker and stay alive. Having said that, the contacts on the 860031 should do the trick there too. Its turns the rest into a simple decoder swap if I want to quickly try something like a Shay or Heisler file, Zimo, ESU or any other next18 decoder. And if those don't fit the bill its a quick 30 second job to revert back to the wheeltappers file on V5. 

[Zunnan]

Its been a LONG time since I weathered anything, and even then it was for someone else. I swap and change my mind over modelling subjects frighteningly quickly, usually once I get the layout operational and then have a 'great idea' which results in a change of era (sometimes entirely different continent!). I tend to keep my models pristine because of that as it makes it easier to fund the next big thing...so with some trepidation I may or may not have slipped a little.

 

 

 

 

 

Mostly there, dirty but in a looked after way. Masking still to remove, but while the coal dries I'll leave the Sentinel undisturbed for a few hours.

Edited August 4, 2022 by Zunnan
reinstating images

[Peckett 560]

A very nice and interesting topic to model! I like your work. I am just reading this article for the first time now.

 

Do I get it right that the runner wagon was used as some kind of counter weight?

 

I am thinking of building an incline on a future layout. Have you build the sleepers for the three rail section by yourself or are they from a kit or similar?

[Gordon A]

The haulage cable was attached to the runner wagon, which was the bottom wagon of any train of wagons going up or down the Clee Hill incline.

[Middlepeak]

Apologies for being very late to join this thread. I tackled the construction of a working incline over 30 years ago when the first stage of my P4 CHP layout "Middlepeak" was built. This had the bottom half of an incline with two parallel roads and the fiddle yard at the top. After having my arm twisted (it didn't take much!) I went on to model the top as well and the layout was exhibited with the complete incline from 1995 to 2003. Robin Whittle was one of my regular collaborators at that time and we shared many a conversation on inclines as we built our respective layouts.

 

There were some differences in principle between the High Peak inclines and that at Clee Hill. Mine was operated by a continuous wire rope (fishing line) which always ran in the same direction, giving separate up and down lines. The pulleys were N Gauge wagon wheels, turned inwards to face each other as you have done. The motive power was a large 12v motor at the top, fitted with a home made gearbox, and at the bottom was a separate pulley under the tracks, running on a sliding frame that allowed the rope tension to be adjusted. The other items of interest were turn-on scotches at the top of the incline, which prevented wagons from rolling away. These were operated by mechanical attachments under the board.

 

A couple of lessons learned, which you might find of interest. Firstly, there were a number of subtle gradients at the top and bottom of the inclines on the prototype. These were designed to make moving the wagons easier, as locos were not allowed too close. Getting these right proved vital to the efficient and reliable operation of the incline. In particular, there was the 'kip' at the top of the up road, which allowed the wagons to run in the right direction to a safe point for disconnection, once they had gone over the summit.

 

Secondly, I had planned to use Jackson couplings to avoid the big hand coming out of the sky as the wagons were attached to the rope. However, the change of gradient on the up road at the foot of the incline, which was necessary to get the wagons started, proved very efficient in uncoupling the two wagons in the 'run', so it was back to three links! In the end, this proved worthwhile, as hooking up the couplings drew attention to the whole process of shunting and 'hanging on' at the top and bottom of the incline.

 

All of this is described in my MRJ article in issue 110.

 

As I said above, not all these issues will apply to Clee Hill because it's a different type of incline, but I hope the above is useful. You seem to be making an excellent job of things and I look forward to seeing how things progress.

 

Regards,

 

Geraint

[Zunnan]

On 07/11/2021 at 18:42, Peckett 560 said:

A very nice and interesting topic to model! I like your work. I am just reading this article for the first time now.

 

Do I get it right that the runner wagon was used as some kind of counter weight?

 

I am thinking of building an incline on a future layout. Have you build the sleepers for the three rail section by yourself or are they from a kit or similar?

 

The runners at Clee Hill were basically there to ensure that the cable wasn't reliant upon the coupling hook at the back of the raft of wagons ascending or descending the incline. They had significant bracing underneath and a strengthened anchor point for the cable. On the model they also will need to effectively deploy enough potential energy to pull a train over the crest and also overcome the drag of the cable being fed out with the winch motor acting as a brake. They need to be extremely free rolling and also pack some weight, on testing a typical Bachmann wagon being used as a runner needs both carbon powder lubricant (pencil lead works nicely) on the axles and weighing up an additional 30g in order to start 4 wagons, it also helps for the wagons in the train to have dry lubricant in the axle points as well to aid free running. When I finally build the pair of LNWR D16 brake vans I have for this project, I'll have to be careful to make sure they're equally free running.

 

The sleepers for the 3 rail track and the section beyond the cable pits over the troughing passing below the track are built from Evergreen plastic rod, 3.2mm by 2mm with C&L chairs which scales out fairly close to the size of a real sleeper. For good measure I drew a file along the length of the plastic to cut some wood graining in. Its not the strongest plastic, so for extra strength both sections were built on a sheet of plasticard.

 

On 07/11/2021 at 23:02, Middlepeak said:

Apologies for being very late to join this thread. I tackled the construction of a working incline over 30 years ago when the first stage of my P4 CHP layout "Middlepeak" was built. This had the bottom half of an incline with two parallel roads and the fiddle yard at the top. After having my arm twisted (it didn't take much!) I went on to model the top as well and the layout was exhibited with the complete incline from 1995 to 2003. Robin Whittle was one of my regular collaborators at that time and we shared many a conversation on inclines as we built our respective layouts.

 

There were some differences in principle between the High Peak inclines and that at Clee Hill. Mine was operated by a continuous wire rope (fishing line) which always ran in the same direction, giving separate up and down lines. The pulleys were N Gauge wagon wheels, turned inwards to face each other as you have done. The motive power was a large 12v motor at the top, fitted with a home made gearbox, and at the bottom was a separate pulley under the tracks, running on a sliding frame that allowed the rope tension to be adjusted. The other items of interest were turn-on scotches at the top of the incline, which prevented wagons from rolling away. These were operated by mechanical attachments under the board.

 

A couple of lessons learned, which you might find of interest. Firstly, there were a number of subtle gradients at the top and bottom of the inclines on the prototype. These were designed to make moving the wagons easier, as locos were not allowed too close. Getting these right proved vital to the efficient and reliable operation of the incline. In particular, there was the 'kip' at the top of the up road, which allowed the wagons to run in the right direction to a safe point for disconnection, once they had gone over the summit.

 

Secondly, I had planned to use Jackson couplings to avoid the big hand coming out of the sky as the wagons were attached to the rope. However, the change of gradient on the up road at the foot of the incline, which was necessary to get the wagons started, proved very efficient in uncoupling the two wagons in the 'run', so it was back to three links! In the end, this proved worthwhile, as hooking up the couplings drew attention to the whole process of shunting and 'hanging on' at the top and bottom of the incline.

 

All of this is described in my MRJ article in issue 110.

 

As I said above, not all these issues will apply to Clee Hill because it's a different type of incline, but I hope the above is useful. You seem to be making an excellent job of things and I look forward to seeing how things progress.

 

Regards,

 

Geraint

 

I have to admit being a big fan. It was actually the CHPR layouts I remember from back then which helped with gestating the idea for Hill Top in the first place. Knowing that working inclines had been tackled and how unusual they are in the model world really egged on the idea of a Clee Hill style as it was something quite different to the CHPR. I think the last time I had a chat over Sheep Pasture was at Leamington back in 2019(?), which sparked a bit of interest back into tinkering with Hill Top a few months before the shorting points problem reared its ugly head and halted proceedings...again. The lack of gradient changes on Clee Hill actually proved helpful in making it relatively easy to model the incline in a very compressed space and. Photos of it in its decline show it ended up as a one rope bi-directional operation, which again simplified the requirements on operation. I still need to build and install scotches by the way!

 

At the moment I'm operating using Kadee couplers, which handle the gradient change 'over the top' very admirably and allow a fully hands free operation. They aren't the prettiest mind you! I've yet to give 3 links a try, but taking up the slack with the runner would certainly get things moving a lot easier. Luckily the compressed curvature at the top doesn't quite lead to buffer lock in the vertical plane when I've tested hauling up without couplings, so switching to 3 links is a viable option at some point.

 

I suppose a brief layout update is called for while I'm at it.

 

I've busied myself with the conversion of the layout to DCC. More track feeds and a bus, the old Cobalt ohm point motors I fitted rewiring for the new regime, 8 pin plugs and decoders on both winches, and the biggest shock of all is that for the first time since the track was glued down...the damned thing works! The shorting issue has been remedied, I think. Admittedly it was self inflicted by having to lay pointwork on a change in gradient, which made it all the more frustrating! It worked fine before the track was glued down, and didn't afterwards!!! I've tweaked the switch rails at the frog isolation gap with a hammer by about 0.1mm, problem solved! Sometimes I guess you really do have to go one step beyond threatening things with the hammer. I need to fit the fiddle yards now, and the fun and games that go into lining up the 3 rail adaptor, but at the moment, with 47181 on the track I'm finding it hard to get beyond playing with it! I might have to put the Sentinel away so I'm not constantly getting distracted.

 

Its alive!