Regency Rails - Georgian, Williamine & Early Victorian Railways

[rockershovel]

Re Runs As Required, above, the same thing happened to the London Docks in not much more than a decade 

[Malcolm 0-6-0]

13 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

0 scale or, what always strikes me as perfect for ancients, Gauge 1? 
 

 

 

Yes, that's my thoughts on the subject as well.  We're up against the perennial modelling problem that the detail of some things is just plain easier to capture in larger scales than smaller.  OO scale is a convenient scale for most modellers and can be used to capture most of what we want relatively well. But it is by its nature suited best to the post 1840s railway world when the prototypes we are modelling are themselves much larger and more powerful than their ancestors. In the ancestral period the size of the motive power and the stock is pretty much geared to easy manipulation by sole humans or animals, and OO doesn't cope well with that from the modelling perspective no matter how developed are our skills. 

 

The idea of those magnetic systems where under the board systems provide the actual motive power and the visible model of whatever the object is simply a dummy is a solution I suppose but to my eye it isn't appealing. It's a bit like mounting motors in the tender, no matter how well done to me at least it just doesn't give the feeling that it is the locomotive that is doing the pulling. To a casual observer it might but to me I always feel just a little disappointed with the result in action. A horse "pulling" a chaldron or two by means of an under board magnetic system would still have depiction problems because horses don't glide, they move their legs and that cannot be easily depicted. 

 

Also the early locomotives with their vertical cylinders and modified beam engines are not only small but also remarkably complex structures to model in small scales. Perhaps so much so that they would be inherently too fragile for prolonged use. And then we come back to the rather dull nature of the actual process depicted - I suspect that one would have to be a completely obsessed by the idea of horses or small locomotives whose only task was moving chaldrons full of coal from one point to another with no complex movements or passenger traffic.

 

It would be a bit like those layouts of small industrial railways with limited movements. They succeed because of the detail in the modelling of the environment in which they are set, which offers many opportunities for the modeller to express their skills. That isn't intended as a criticism of simple layouts - mine is pretty small and simple, but it is intended to be a scene in which I can just watch trains go by as a break from work, and occasionally do a bit of modelling.

 

So if I was going to go for a layout depicting a proto railway theme then it would have to be in a larger scale.              

[Malcolm 0-6-0]

15 hours ago, Hroth said:

To be honest, I imagined as much.  The one I got (thankfully not paying too much for it!) whizzes around most entertainingly but it's in its box and I never thought to get it to push anything about at the time!  The next size up in current RTR is the Hornby Ruston&Hornsby industrial diesel which is tiny in comparison with all but the Wickham but does have the grunt to move quite a few wagons about.  But even so, the size does militate against it, you might be able to motorise a chaldron wagon with it and the wheels would be too wrong!  They are also rather expensive for such experimental bodging...

 

Indeed, the Wickham trolley is for its size a very expensive model and I certainly wouldn't buy one to hack up the little ballast cart that actually provides the motive power. And as I noted it isn't the most powerful of motors. 

[Caley Jim]

Malcolm,  what is the problem with having a motor in the tender driving the loco? It's still the loco which is doing the pulling. 

 

Jim 

[whart57]

OO is not my scale but out of interest I fished out the book of 19th century railway drawings I had and laid one of those small N20 motors on 4mm scale drawings of Locomotion and a Bury 2-2-0 of c1840. Smaller motors are of course available but you also need gearing and that takes up nearly as much space again. You can get motors with integral gearing that reverse the drive shaft and they might, just about work with a Bury 2-2-0 or Stephenson 2-2-2 but I think you'd have to pitch the boiler higher.

 

The problem with using N gauge technology in 4mm scale is the gearing. The gearing is designed for small diameter wheels so unless you want shunting done by Lewis Hamilton you need to make modifications. Which rather defeats the object of using a commercial mechanism.

 

I think it would have to be 7mm scale to do the subject justice

[Hroth]

2 minutes ago, whart57 said:

unless you want shunting done by Lewis Hamilton

 

No need for turntables, just pull a donut.....

 

 

[Regularity]

On 12/10/2019 at 19:11, runs as required said:

By novelty of the new technology do you mean in 1825?  Because rail technology had already existed in Britain for over 300 years! 

Steam-powered, inter-city railways. Take a broader picture...

[Corbs]

On 12/10/2019 at 19:11, runs as required said:

 

Of course the first rail disaster is often cited as the Newbottle explosion on the banks of the Wear in 1815  when the crowd celebrating the victory at Waterloo goaded the driver of Brunton's Steam Horse (my logo) to gallop at around 30mph along the rails by recklessly holding down the safety valve.

I think 15 souls, many of them children lost their lives.

 

This one?

 

http://www.dmm.org.uk/names/n1815-04.htm

 

Bit of a strange one as I think the reporting may have been mixed up with an underground explosion that also happened that year.

 

[Ian Simpson]

On 13/10/2019 at 12:14, whart57 said:

Once upon a time I had a copy (repro) of Whishaws Railways of Great Britain. It disappeared in a house move unfortunately. I seem to recall that aside from some excellent drawings of 1840-ish locomotives and stock, it also had a chapter on the author's system of "Reciprocating Railways". The idea was to save on track construction by using single track lines efficiently. Anyone know more about it?

 

It's available as a free PDF download on Google Books at https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=dxFfAAAAcAAJ&pg=PR1&dq=Francis+Whishaw&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Francis Whishaw&f=false

 

His Railways of Great Britain is an amazing resource for early modellers and researchers!  Francis Whishaw basically just pulled together all the info he could find from all available sources at the time including prospectuses, the early railway press and writing to just about every company secretary in the British Isles.  I'm not sure he ever visited any of the railways himself, but there aren't many obvious errors in such an encyclopedic work. I use it frequently, I love reading it and I'm always sad that he ended up dying in impoverished circumstances.

 

Use the drop down menu next to the cog wheel at top right of the screen to save. There's no need to sign in or to have a Google account, although you will be asked to confirm a capture word before the download starts.

Edited October 14, 2019 by Ian Simpson
Called Whishaw "John" when his first name was really Francis!

[john new]

17 minutes ago, Ian Simpson said:

 

It's available as a free PDF download on Google Books at https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=dxFfAAAAcAAJ&pg=PR1&dq=Francis+Whishaw&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Francis Whishaw&f=false

 

His Railways of Great Britain is an amazing resource for early modellers and researchers!  John Whishaw basically just pulled together all the info he could find from all available sources at the time including prospectuses, the early railway press and writing to just about every company secretary in the British Isles.  I'm not sure he ever visited any of the railways himself, but there aren't many obvious errors in such an encyclopedic work. I use it frequently, I love reading it and I'm always sad that he ended up dying in impoverished circumstances.

 

P.S. Use the drop down menu next to the cog wheel at top right of the screen to save. There's no need to sign in or to have a Google account, although you will be asked to confirm a capture word before the download starts.

Thanks for the link. Now in my Google Play collection.

 

[runs as required]

On 14/10/2019 at 12:10, Corbs said:

 

This one?

http://www.dmm.org.uk/names/n1815-04.htm

Bit of a strange one as I think the reporting may have been mixed up with an underground explosion that also happened that year.

 

Yes more or less

It gets explained more extensively on Sem's RM web thread 'The marvellous, fantastic and truly wonderful Brunton 'Horse to go by steam' here

There is a lot more interesting stuff (about my avatar) the Steam Horse here  built by a resourceful scratch modeller AdrianGER who has exhibited his 1:32 scale working Steam Horse and chaldron waggons at model exhibitions in Saffron Walden Essex.

dh

Best link here to Adrian's Stuff videos  stills above: left in brass, right completed as an animated exhibition diorama

Edited October 15, 2019 by runs as required
better link and pic added

[Northroader]

You can also try Dendy Marshall, though this download is a preview, so not all the full words and music are available:

https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/A_History_of_Railway_Locomotives_Down_to.html?id=cPLbBQAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&redir_esc=y

Edited October 14, 2019 by Northroader

[whart57]

1 hour ago, Ian Simpson said:

 

It's available as a free PDF download on Google Books at https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=dxFfAAAAcAAJ&pg=PR1&dq=Francis+Whishaw&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Francis Whishaw&f=false

 

His Railways of Great Britain is an amazing resource for early modellers and researchers!  Francis Whishaw basically just pulled together all the info he could find from all available sources at the time including prospectuses, the early railway press and writing to just about every company secretary in the British Isles.  I'm not sure he ever visited any of the railways himself, but there aren't many obvious errors in such an encyclopedic work. I use it frequently, I love reading it and I'm always sad that he ended up dying in impoverished circumstances.

 

Use the drop down menu next to the cog wheel at top right of the screen to save. There's no need to sign in or to have a Google account, although you will be asked to confirm a capture word before the download starts.

 

Shame the plates have not rendered well. It looks like whoever did the scanning didn't bother to unfold the sheets

[Ian Simpson]

31 minutes ago, whart57 said:

 

Shame the plates have not rendered well. It looks like whoever did the scanning didn't bother to unfold the sheets

 

A common problem with Google Books, I'm afraid. If you know which drawing / plans you want and you're not in too much a hurry, I can try to copy key pages at the British Library.

[whart57]

18 minutes ago, Ian Simpson said:

 

A common problem with Google Books, I'm afraid. If you know which drawing / plans you want and you're not in too much a hurry, I can try to copy key pages at the British Library.

 

Thanks. However as my wife is a regular at the British Library I will impose on her. I suspect though that Alan Prior has used a number in his "19th Century Railway Drawings in 4mm scale"

[whart57]

Further to my earlier post re N20 motors and early steam engines, here is a mock up of a N20 motor with reversed output on a drawing of a London and Birmingham Bury 2-2-0

 

 

It does seem to feasible. But these engines are small, in 4mm scale they are about the same size as the 3mm scale engines I am used to

[Argos]

The n20 motors are quite chunky. There are plenty of smaller options out there. Some even have combined gear boxes.

 

I'm not sure why anyone would restrict themselves to a N20 motor if modelling a small prototype?

 

 

Edited October 14, 2019 by Argos

[K14]

4 hours ago, whart57 said:

 

Shame the plates have not rendered well. It looks like whoever did the scanning didn't bother to unfold the sheets

 

Try this one of the 1842 edition: https://archive.org/details/railwaysgreatbr00whisgoog/page/n616

 

The scans are decidedly less worse.

 

P.

[whart57]

2 hours ago, Argos said:

I'm not sure why anyone would restrict themselves to a N20 motor if modelling a small prototype?

 

 

 

They're cheap?

 

Actually it has more to do with the fact that some of us in the 3mm Society are experimenting with crown and pinion transmission instead of worm gears. Worm gears are after all "driving with the handbrake on" as the late Stewart Hine would say

[Argos]

Cheap is no good if they don't fit!

 

If you are willing to take a punt on ebay then much is available, how well they work is a different matter but then we're not talking much money only a few quid.

 

If you're looking for quality motors with gearboxes built in then Faulhaber have a selction:-

 

6mm dia by 15mm long:- https://www.faulhaber.com/en/products/series/0615s/

Associated Gearbox with ratios between 4/1 to 4096/1:- https://www.faulhaber.com/en/products/series/061/

These don't come cheap though :- https://www.glockenankermotor.com/index.php/cat/c3_0615---S-Faulhaber.html/XTCsid/92c511c00ae7856709f0dca477c9f786

 

Some alternate ready made solutions in various scales here:-

https://www.sb-modellbau.com/index.php?page=gruppe&path=/00000220

 

Again not cheap, but  a more reasonably priced option is:-

 

4mm motor with gearbox options 80/1 to 2016/1: - https://shop.kkpmo.com/index.php?cat=c339_4mm-Geared-DC-Motors-4mm-Geared-DC-Motors-339.html&XTCsid=0jk0oju6ndo6rjom2jn7drfdh5

 

6mm range with 5/1 to 700/1 options:- https://shop.kkpmo.com/index.php?cat=c337_6mm-Geared-DC-Motors-6mm-Geared-DC-Motors-337.html&XTCsid=0jk0oju6ndo6rjom2jn7drfdh5

 

I am sure there are more if you are willing to look.

Once you take away the requirement for the gearbox then the options open up even more.

 

 

Edited October 14, 2019 by Argos

[RLWP]

I would avoid those really tiny motors. I have an 009 Wren with one in the firebox:

 

 

 

It really isn't very powerful. 

 

There are Faulhaber motors around 8mm diameter which are much more suitable

 

Richard

[Nearholmer]

Wren: amazing!

 

Contrate gears or crown and pinion gears: jolly good things! They were used in a lot of relatively early 0 gauge models, and in some "tinplate revival" locos, and they are far better than worms. Why they fell out of fashion, I'm not sure, but they are definitely worth reviving, because they are far more efficient.

[Malcolm 0-6-0]

18 hours ago, Caley Jim said:

Malcolm,  what is the problem with having a motor in the tender driving the loco? It's still the loco which is doing the pulling. 

 

Jim 

 

Well on all the ones I have the motive power is actually the tender, it pulls what's behind it and pushes the locomotive along on its freely revolving wheels, even if they cease to freely revolve like a certain long gone Lima Crab.

[Malcolm 0-6-0]

On 13/10/2019 at 05:11, runs as required said:

 

Of course the first rail disaster is often cited as the Newbottle explosion on the banks of the Wear in 1815  

 

Newbottle explosion? Sounds a bit like when my mother decided to take up making ginger beer. As it matured in a darkened cupboard there was often the sound of a new bottle explosion. Mind you the ones that survived were delicious.  

[Argos]

Hi RLWP, 

 

I was showing the smaller motors to highlight the range available. On most of the pages linked there are options for 8, 10 and 12mm motors that will offer more power.

 

That said I would expect any model train load for the period to be light anyway.