Regency Rails - Georgian, Williamine & Early Victorian Railways

[Northroader]

I fancy you’re right, but it does make a pretty model. When you look at your picture of the old bridge, you wonder how it would stand up to any coal wagons, never mind locos.

[Annie]

9 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Sticking with the Stockton & Darlington, I recently found out where this bridge had been hiding ......

 

 

Built at West Auckland by Stephenson in 1823, and situated between two inclined planes, it was not designed for locomotives, and, as the line closed in 1856, I doubt it was ever crossed by one. 

 

 

 

That is a very nice bridge.  Classic  early 19th century excellence in cast iron.

[Nearholmer]

If it is all cast, some of the members in it are being asked to do what cast iron can’t: take significant load in tension. I hope that the bowstrings are wrought iron. 

[Edwardian]

Stephenson pioneered wrought iron rails on the S&D.  I had assumed that his bridge was an essay in the same technology.

[Compound2632]

The limitations of cast iron were not well-understood at the time, or for a while after - witness the catastrophic failure of Robert Stephenson's cast iron bridge over the Dee at Chester in 1847.

[Annie]

I wasn't sure.  Going by the pictures it looked like cast iron, but I suppose it could be wrought iron.  Nothing like making a wild guess when one is not sure.......

[sir douglas]

IIRC cast is good under compression but doesnt like any pulling or shear movement, and wrought is good for pulling forces and has a bit of flexibility for bending and shear forces but isnt good under compression, something like that anyway this is what i know going back to part of a Fred Dibnah program about the iron gorge bridge which has both cast and wrought in it

[Nearholmer]

I thought it looked cast too, which is why I expressed hope, rather than certainty.

 

But, it can be hard to tell the two apart in photos, and even face-to-face, especially if WI had had lots and lots of paint put onto it. Unpainted, old WI, especially heavily weathered, has quite a distinctive appearance, sinewy almost.

 

If it is cast, it's an exceptionally weird structure, even by the standards of the time that Compound refers too.

[Northroader]

Thought I’d just check this bridge on Wiki, and it turns out to be a mixture of wrought and cast iron. Usually wiki don’t get things 100 per cent right, here it mentions wrought iron tubes, when they must be rods. It gives it as a lenticular truss design, and this being the first of that ilk, so credit to the Stephensons, although the design not much used. The two Brunel bridges at Chepstow and Saltash are the same idea, though much larger. I’m interested on where the side girder spans join at that massive boss above each pier, the bits joining the piers side to side are cast, the girder rods are wrought, the interface would have been fun. It does say there’s a piccy of a loco on it, maybe just for the fun of it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaunless_Bridge

Edited May 24, 2019 by Northroader

[Compound2632]

4 hours ago, Northroader said:

The two Brunel bridges at Chepstow* and Saltash are the same idea, though much larger.

 

*Was. Replaced in 1962. There's an interesting feature on the building of the Chepstow bridge and the subsequent history of pre-fabricated bridge building in Chepstow at the Chepstow Museum, just opposite the entrance to the castle.

[Edwardian]

Well, on Saturday I was wafted up to Heaven on a North-Eastern Early Railway shaped balloon.

 

For those, including me until yesterday, unfamiliar with Beamish, one corner of the plot is devoted to an 1820s landscape with the Pockerley Waggonway. 

 

It's been a fun exercise this morning trying to match the infrastructure to prototype examples.

 

"The Great Shed", opened in 2001, is a wonderful structure, and is said to be based upon Timothy Hackworth's Shildon erecting shop. 

 

 

I entertain doubts upon the subject - even allowing for modifications over time, it is not easy to see how the Erecting Shop at Soho Works could have resembled the Beamish structure, save in the most gerneral sense.

 

copyright - The Durham Record 

 

 

I suspect that we are in the realms of Magnificent Invention, but magnificent it is, and the structure is crying out to be modelled as part of a freelance 1830s-1840s layout.  

 

In fact, I would not be surprised if the two central elliptical arches, and the twin smoke vents, were not inspired by the Stockton & Darlington's engine shed on the bleak moors at Waskerley ....

 

 

Along the line from Waskerley at Parkhead was a stone water column, which is surely the model for that at Beamish.

 

 

 

The Great Shed contains many treasures, including the Forcet Coach (an 1860s Darlington Cttee market day coach, IIRC, latterly used for workmen on the Forcet goods branch, which ran south from the Darlington-Barnard Castle Railway at Gainford; all very familiar territory for Yours Truly) and a fire engine from Streatlam Castle, a lost great house local to me (blown up by the army in 1959).  

 

 

At the passenger platform is a rather steampunky domed iron kiosk.  I'd love to know where that came from.

 

 

 

Further along the line is a signal cabin that could have come straight out of the Forest of Boland LR.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2019 by Edwardian

[webbcompound]

The domed kiosk is the end of a Lancashire boiler, sawn off and created by Beamish. The kiosk, the signal cabin, and the engine shed are the result of an extended flight of fantasy (that included making passenger carriages out of chaldron wagons as well).  One faction argued that this should be a mineral waggonway with authentic infrastructure, but were in a minority and over-ruled by the other faction who said this should be a visitor ride opportunity. The ride faction were also then incapable of grasping the concept of the passenger trains being accurate but early, and the mineral trains being hauled by the even earlier locos. Basically there were no railway historians with enough clout in position when the decisions were made. So the area is entertaining, and the locos are excellent, but they missed the chance to make a much better experience. The same factionalism led to the abandonment of passenger services in NER stock out of Rowley station. Jim, who did the research and drove the project to produce the steam elephant, went on to the NRM where he was responsible for pushing forward the excellent decision to re-streamline the LMS Corontation class.

Edited May 26, 2019 by webbcompound

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, webbcompound said:

The domed kiosk is the end of a Lancashire boiler, sawn off and created by Beamish. The kiosk, the signal cabin, and the engine shed are the result of an extended flight of fantasy (that included making passenger carriages out of chaldron wagons as well).  One faction argued that this should be a mineral waggonway with authentic infrastructure, but were in a minority and over-ruled by the other faction who said this should be a visitor ride opportunity. The ride faction were also then incapable of grasping the concept of the passenger trains being accurate but early, and the mineral trains being hauled by the even earlier locos. Basically there were no railway historians with enough clout in position when the decisions were made. So the area is entertaining, and the locos are excellent, but they missed the chance to make a much better experience. The same factionalism led to the abandonment of passenger services in NER stock out of Rowley station. Jim, who did the research and drove the project to produce the steam elephant, went on to the NRM where he was responsible for pushing forward the excellent decision to re-streamline the LMS Corontation class.

 

I enjoyed the "ride" last summer but I do have to say that the railway side of Beamish does to a railway enthusiast visitor appear to be rather neglected compared to many other aspects. I was rather shocked by the condition of the goods wagons left standing in the open.

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, webbcompound said:

The domed kiosk is the end of a Lancashire boiler, sawn off and created by Beamish. The kiosk, the signal cabin, and the engine shed are the result of an extended flight of fantasy (that included making passenger carriages out of chaldron wagons as well).  One faction argued that this should be a mineral waggonway with authentic infrastructure, but were in a minority and over-ruled by the other faction who said this should be a visitor ride opportunity. The ride faction were also then incapable of grasping the concept of the passenger trains being accurate but early, and the mineral trains being hauled by the even earlier locos. Basically there were no railway historians with enough clout in position when the decisions were made. So the area is entertaining, and the locos are excellent, but they missed the chance to make a much better experience. The same factionalism led to the abandonment of passenger services in NER stock out of Rowley station. Jim, who did the research and drove the project to produce the steam elephant, went on to the NRM where he was responsible for pushing forward the excellent decision to re-streamline the LMS Corontation class.

 

There do seem to have been some odd choices and there is plenty that one could be critical about.  I can quite see from the results how a debate might have been won and lost between the stated aim of the museum to illustrate the region's history, and the wish to create a Disney version with rides.  

 

One can start with the choice of name - waggonway. Whatever it is, the exhibit appears to be a railway, not a plateway, and certainly not a waggonway. 

 

I found the "Great Shed" a magnificent building.  It is a gift to a modeller building a freelance layout set in "the Earlies".  It is, as I say, a Magnificent Invention.  I can only assume that a replica of Hackworth's Soho erecting shop was out of the question for some reason or other. I do not know the date of the erecting shop. It could be as early as the building of Royal George in 1827, but for all I know it might have been a product of the 1830s or '40s.  Some research required, I feel. 

 

 

There is a tension between the idea of an 1825 mineral railway and passengers.  The locomotives are replicas of colliery railway locomotives.  I include Locomotion in that, as it was of this ilk as one of four 0-4-0 colliery types that first saw service on the S&D. The S&D soon went over to six-coupled mineral engines of the Hackworth type. 

 

As such, the motive power would be perfect for chuffering about with early chaldron wagons, but the colliery lines did not have passenger services.  The models are part of a display at North Road, Darlington.

 

 

The Stockton & Darlington did have at least one loco-hauled coach in the early days.  I believe Beamish has a replica, though it was not in evidence when I visited.

 

 

Generally, however, for the 1820s the contemporary passenger service was a horse-drawn stage coach mounted on railway wheels. 

 

 

When the S&D passenger service went steam throughout, which I seem to recollect was not until 1833, a rather different locomotive would have been used, and we have looked at the early S&D coaching engines before.  

 

 

That brings us the coaches.  These I rather liked, though the First/Second Composite was rather lurid.  

 

 

These are surely attempts to represent the Stockton & Darlington's coaches of 1835, as depicted in line drawings on display at North Road.  They are out of the stated period of the "waggonway" by a decade, but that underscores the difficulty of providing a passenger ride based on an era not known for steam-hauled passenger trains!

 

It can be seen, the Beamish coaches do not exactly conform to the line drawings.  I think the cream coach was originally an open vehicle, and was probably not intended to be a copy of the second Class Merchant coach. 

 

Engaging though the waggonway was, I daresay it could have been a little more coherent and a little more honest within the confines of what the Museum was trying to achieve.  Still very much recommended, and I do love the Great Shed, even if it is a pastiche; it's a brilliant one. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2019 by Edwardian
spelling!

[webbcompound]

hmm. I havn't been around there for a while. Last time I was it was "riding" chaldrons (bad) and a reconstruction of the early S&D coach (good). I'm glad I never saw the coaches you rode in. Far too many diversions from the originals they clearly are originally based on. They look like the sort of thing a Hollywood film of the 30s might have produced for a British based costume drama. With the right colours even these pastiches would have looked a bit better. Blue/green for the second, red and black for the first? Of course it is easy to play the "when I was running things" card, and I think the current  team is probably a vast improvement on some of the people in charge when I was there. That aside, running the tramway, the railway, and the site interpretation team was good fun when I was allowed to get on with it 

[webbcompound]

just been checking up on colours.  The first S&D coaches in 1825 were dark blue or green. By 1841 there were yellow coaches but in early 1842  all coaches were painted into lake. This seems to be similar to many railways, with a transition from blue/green to yellow by the early 40s and then into clarets/lakes/chocolates, with or without lighter upper panels during that decade

Edited May 26, 2019 by webbcompound

[Ruston]

9 hours ago, webbcompound said:

The domed kiosk is the end of a Lancashire boiler, sawn off and created by Beamish.

That's not made from a Lancashire boiler. It looks more like the sort of boiler which would have been fired externally and is sometimes called an egg-ended boiler. A Lancashire boiler is a completely different thing with fire grates and two large fire tubes inside that go through from one end to the other and so can't have a domed end.

 

[Edwardian]

16 minutes ago, Ruston said:

That's not made from a Lancashire boiler. It looks more like the sort of boiler which would have been fired externally and is sometimes called an egg-ended boiler. A Lancashire boiler is a completely different thing with fire grates and two large fire tubes inside that go through from one end to the other and so can't have a domed end.

 

 

Indeed. Compare and contrast.

 

Only one picture features an old boiler (the other features the Memsahib). 

 

[Corbs]

The railway exhibits did suffer for quite a long time from neglect. The current team have been making huge strides to rebuild a lot of exhibits.

Beamish transport online is a really good blog site.

[Compound2632]

21 minutes ago, Corbs said:

The railway exhibits did suffer for quite a long time from neglect. The current team have been making huge strides to rebuild a lot of exhibits.

Beamish transport online is a really good blog site.

 

Just had a look there - not even a stocklist under the wagons tab. My comments based on a visit last August.

[Corbs]

True, that side of the site will never be complete I suspect as it’s been like that for about 5 years

From what I can tell they are trying to turn around as many restorations as possible as well as conserving the ones they have (recently a shed has been constructed to keep the chauldrons out of the weather when they are not in use).

It all takes time, the neglect was so extensive and a lot of things had had the last bit of life squeezed out of them (e.g the coffee pot and the Lewin) and needed substantial reconstruction.

They are a dedicated bunch though and it does look like they want to get through everything eventually.

[sir douglas]

beamish has/had all sorts going on like; rebuild of Penrhyn quarry "Glyder", the Rowlsey line round the back of the town has been relaid and cleaned up some new small NE style buildings around the station, new narrow gauge tracks have been laid around the colliery, the building of the 2ft Lewin replica, replica Brampton coach for the pockerly line, building a new shed next to the tram shed for the road fleet (buses, vans, cars, bikes), the near constant repair and rebuild of the of the buses, vans, trucks, cars, vans, locos, carriages, wagons, trams, buildings, fences, track. i think that the pockerly hasnt been neglected as they are doing regular maintenance on the locos and theyve got new carriages but they might get around to it eventually. they are also planning on doing  a postwar town (50's.60's) in the blank area in the middle of the museum next to the victorian town

[Annie]

An interesting album of photos of Sans Pareil at the Chasewater Railway  https://chasewaterrailwaymuseum.blog/category/photograph-collection/old-chasewater-railway-photographs/

 

Album is about two thirds down the webpage.

[Ravenser]

 

A blatant plug, I'm afraid, and some may have already seen the posting - but I've been building a genuine Georgian locomotive kit  (the locomotive is Georgian , not the kit, which dates from the age of Harold Wilson...)

 

Airfix Trevithick locomotive kit

 

As an aside I had a look at the Beamish transport blog - very interesting- , and it would appear they have some kind of coloured drawing as reference for the S&D coach livery

[Caley Jim]

I recall building one of these back in my teens, but I never attempted motorising it.  With both this and Kitmaster loco kits I never found plastic-plastic moving parts very great for free running.

 

Jim