Rails of Sheffield/Dapol/NRM Announce OO gauge Stroudley A1/A1X

[JSpencer]

Well, I received the first of my 3 terriers today: Bodiam as she was in A1 condition on the KESR around 1905.

 

It sadly has a slightly out of line chimney and curved running plate. This is not really noticeable on the layout per-se but I take no pleasure from paying so much for a state of the art model for it to be let down by QC.  The post office now  has at least an hour long queue thanks to social distancing so a lot of hassle to return it. I will see how the other pair turn up.

 

Other pics are a comparison with:

Hornby's ex Dapol tooling Bodiam  -A1/A1X hybrid - which represents the prototype reasonably well in preserved condition when she carried the original KESR scheme

Hornby's new A1 tooling Rolvenden which represents that loco from the same period (cir 1905) when Bodiam and Rolvenden were both running on the KESR.

 

Both models are a vast improvement over the old Dapol model though its buffers are still better than Hornby's  new one (I hope they tool up replacements which we can then buy as spares). But the old Dapol model is noticeably taller than the new ones on the layout.

I feel however that the two new A1s are quite comparable. Both look fine next to each other on the  layout. Granted the bulk of differences between the two models are mostly due to errors/tooling constraints (most - but not all - on the Hornby model) however the one big difference that draws your eye and stands out between the models are the brass condensing pipes on Bodiam which stood out on the prototypes as well. The remaining differences don't really stand out when running on a layout - quite easy to imagine you are back in 1905.

 

Running, the new Hornby A1 is quieter (the rails having a low growl, but hey, it's a Terrier!) but electrical pick up is better on the rails. The firebox glow on the rails is very good, certainly noticeable, brighter than Dapols B4.  I feel the Rails version is better value for money, if only they can sort out that QC.

 

 

 

 

 

[truffy]

26 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

the one big difference that draws your eye and stands out between the models are the brass condensing pipes on Bodiam which stood out on the prototypes as well.

Have to say, that looks gorgeous!

[JSpencer]

Well, I managed to straighten out the running plate a bit (still slightly curved but I can live with it) and also the chimney which pops off easily enough.

Discovered the buffers are turned brass while doing it. A nice touch.

 

 

[NHY 581]

I appreciate the issues at the post office and the associated problems in returns but I fail to see why you accept a defective model which you have to pull apart to rectify the faults. 

 

Customers should not have to endure sub standard products. 

 

Surely in doing this, if the the model suffers a mechanical issue then any warranty claim goes out of the window.............

 

If people keep doing this then the supply of poorly assembled models becomes the norm with an associated drop in quality control at the factory because it no longer matters. 

 

Rob. 

[Ian J.]

25 minutes ago, NHY 581 said:

I appreciate the issues at the post office and the associated problems in returns but I fail to see why you accept a defective model which you have to pull apart to rectify the faults. 

 

Customers should not have to endure sub standard products. 

 

Surely in doing this, if the the model suffers a mechanical issue then any warranty claim goes out of the window.............

 

If people keep doing this then the supply of poorly assembled models becomes the norm with an associated drop in quality control at the factory because it no longer matters. 

 

Rob. 

 

Agreed, and I would like to see producers of models take better care of not only assembly but also R&D so that errors don't get through to tooling, meaning that we as buyers don't have to do anything to correct our purchases.

 

However, I have a limit to my ire, and if it's possible to 'fix' a model then I'm happy to do so once a mechanism is proven otherwise OK, and there are no intrisically unfixable problems in the design.

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, JSpencer said:

Well, I managed to straighten out the running plate a bit (still slightly curved but I can live with it) and also the chimney which pops off easily enough.

Discovered the buffers are turned brass while doing it. A nice touch.

 

 

 

Good work. Might I ask how you managed to straighten the footplate?

[trevor7598]

My 32661 has a few very minor niggles, the worse one is the firebox flicker

which sometimes does and sometimes doesn't, it has a mind of it's own.

It was also very sticky straight from the box, but it has probably now travelled

for an actual mile around my garden circuit, and now runs very sweetly.

It is much quieter now and will crawl without stuttering.

 

Lets hope the QC issues affecting some Terriers are ironed out for the forthcoming D,

and much stricter QC is employed, and any duds are rejected in China, and not 

boxed up and sent over here. After all the D will cost nearly twice that of a Terrier

so perfection should be the goal.

I won't pre-order a D, I'll wait and see.

[RodneyS]

 

3 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Good work. Might I ask how you managed to straighten the footplate?

 

I was just going to ask the same !

 

I had to return my Bodiam because of broken and loose parts and a cab footstep missing.

I am still waiting for a replacement so, just in case it also has a curved running plate, it would be useful to know.

 

I don't mind glueing loose parts back on because I think I can probably get them straighter than they were before.

It is a hassle packing up and returning a model.

Rodney

[JSpencer]

22 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

Good work. Might I ask how you managed to straighten the footplate?

 

13 minutes ago, RodneyS said:

 

 

I was just going to ask the same !

 

I had to return my Bodiam because of broken and loose parts and a cab footstep missing.

I am still waiting for a replacement so, just in case it also has a curved running plate, it would be useful to know.

 

I don't mind glueing loose parts back on because I think I can probably get them straighter than they were before.

It is a hassle packing up and returning a model.

Rodney

 

Difficult to describe but a lot of it was figuring out where it deformed from  (it was more curved on one side than the other).  Generally it was from just below the front of the tanks (or the middle of the boiler). 

You need a hard smooth surface and my work bench has a thick sheet (approx. 1cm thick) of glass covering it.

 

Step 1 - place the bottom edge of the front buffer beam on the edge of the glass being careful not to have the buffers touching it (one buffer fell off doing this but easy to put back on with a spot of glue suitable to hold brass).

Step 2 - hold the rear of the loco, push down really hard (say 5-6kgs of force - until the plastic boiler creaks basically but no more) in the middle of the boiler for a few seconds, check result, repeat until at least one edge straightens.

Step 3 - to straight the other side, focus the force between the of the boiler and the corner of the bottom of the buffer beam (on the same side. Again until the plastic creaks but no more. Check result and repeat.

It will get you close enough.

 

Ideally to fully straighten it, would require removing all the super structure (held in by screws and glued tabs. But that is a lot of work.

[greatcoleswoodhalt]

4 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

But that is a lot of work.

 

Blimey, what you'd already described seemed a lot of work!

 

On 15/05/2020 at 14:12, AY Mod said:

The issue is now under investigation up at Rails.

 

Was there a follow-up to this, do we know?

[AY Mod]

Just now, jafcreasey said:

Was there a follow-up to this, do we know?

 

If any individual owners are affected they should contact Rails.

[melmerby]

Can anybody please explain the logic of paying £100+ for a model and then spend hours rectifying manufacturing faults?

It's bizarre.

If it's faulty it goes back, surely?

[Joseph_Pestell]

7 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Can anybody please explain the logic of paying £100+ for a model and then spend hours rectifying manufacturing faults?

It's bizarre.

If it's faulty it goes back, surely?

 

It would surely be more fun to build a kit if one wants to put in that sort of work.

 

One reason, of course, is living overseas. The complications of sending anything back - not just transport costs but customs bureaucracy - may make it the best solution.

 

When I was in the trade, I would regularly receive consignments from one manufacturer with a significant proportion of damaged stock: buffers off, close-coupling mechanism pulled out of cam, etc. It was easier for me to repair them than send back because the problem was caused by their awful packaging. So a replacement lot would have had just as many problems.

Edited May 30, 2020 by Joseph_Pestell

[GreenGiraffe22]

Honestly, I can seldom be bothered to send anything back, the only times anything has gone back were Hornby's S15 because the side rods bent out of shape and both my Hattons Ps because they both deteriorated in performance so quickly over a few weeks they became unusable (one required a whole new chassis). 

[phil-b259]

8 hours ago, trevor7598 said:

My 32661 has a few very minor niggles, the worse one is the firebox flicker

which sometimes does and sometimes doesn't, it has a mind of it's own.

It was also very sticky straight from the box, but it has probably now travelled

for an actual mile around my garden circuit, and now runs very sweetly.

It is much quieter now and will crawl without stuttering.

 

Lets hope the QC issues affecting some Terriers are ironed out for the forthcoming D,

and much stricter QC is employed, and any duds are rejected in China, and not 

boxed up and sent over here.

That’s not how ‘quality control’ works these days. It is regarded as impractical, not to mention extremely costly to check every item coming off the assembly line. UK modellers are well known for complaining about high prices and more extensive checking means higher labour costs.

 

Even in China ‘quality control’ will consist of taking a small sample of finished models and examining them. This is designed to pick up wholesale flaws in production and rarely picks up errors by individual assemblers unless they are systematic enough to occur in large numbers. Thus individual locos with wonky chimneys or other assembly errors will continue to slip through.

 

As someone once said pick high quality or low price as your yardstick - because only a fool thinks both are achievable.

Edited May 30, 2020 by phil-b259

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

That’s not how ‘quality control’ works these days. It is regarded as impractical, not to mention extremely costly to check every item coming off the assembly line. UK modellers are well known for complaining about high prices and more extensive checking means higher labour costs.

 

Even in China ‘quality control’ will consist of taking a small sample of finished models* and examining them. This is designed to pick up wholesale flaws in production and rarely picks up errors by individual assemblers unless they are systematic enough to occur in large numbers. Thus individual locos with wonky chimneys or other assembly locos will continue to slip through.

 

As someone once said pick high quality or low price as your yardstick - because only a fool thinks both are achievable.

*and at various stages of manufacture

 

Back in the 90s when I worked for BT, Quality Control consisted of a batch sample and had done since the year dot.

(apart from safety critical items where it was 100% manual inspection along with material checks and appropriate mechanical/electrical tests.)

The only thing that changed was that the responsibilty for QC itself moved from BT to the supplier and it was the supplier's Quality System itself that was audited by BT.

All this was to the relevant BS/ISO standards.

In this case "China" is the supplier and "Rails" is the customer (via Dapol) so the QC is up to the Chinese company but the Quality System should have been audited by Rails or Dapol or both.

There will be an allowable fault rate written into the contract.

If it is exceeded there should be some penalty clause e.g. reduced contract price or the manufacturer's responsibilty to correct the faulty items at their own cost.

[Ian J.]

1 hour ago, Richard Croft said:

I had one sent for sound fitting and its great, there are no issues with it and its one of the best running small loco's I've ever had here.

 

 

Richard

 

Nice, however the sound for Stepney (32655) should have a characteristic up-down pop sound due to that locomotive's cylinders (?):

 

 

[Pre Grouping fan]

I think the closest sound I've heard for terriers is the Paul Chetter/ Digitrains. There's a video of the o gauge version on YouTube and it does have that distinctive bark. 

[Ian J.]

Note that Stepney is an exception, most other Terriers do not have the 'pop' sound, so the sound file used for the model in the video above would probably be suitable for a different member of the class. I don't know how many Terriers in their lifetimes had an arrangement that gave that up-down pop sound.

[Adrian Stevenson]

I am an O Gauge guy, but I have just fitted a Locoman chip to my Dapol Terrier. I realise there will be a difference in sound due to speaker size, but if it is helpful have a look at this short video of my loco demonstrating some of the sounds. Not connection, just a satisfied customer.

 

Cheers, Ade.

 

 

[Ian J.]

1 hour ago, Adrian Stevenson said:

I am an O Gauge guy, but I have just fitted a Locoman chip to my Dapol Terrier. I realise there will be a difference in sound due to speaker size, but if it is helpful have a look at this short video of my loco demonstrating some of the sounds. Not connection, just a satisfied customer.

 

Cheers, Ade.

 

 

 

I can't tell for certain, but it looks to me like there are too many beats for the wheel rotation. Is the Locoman decoder set up for 4mm? If so you will need to adjust the timings of the beats as in 7mm they need to be fewer for the distance travelled.

[lofty1966]

3 hours ago, Ian J. said:

 

I can't tell for certain, but it looks to me like there are too many beats for the wheel rotation. Is the Locoman decoder set up for 4mm? If so you will need to adjust the timings of the beats as in 7mm they need to be fewer for the distance travelled.

Er....shouldn't it be the same? It's per revolution which is the same for any scale

[melmerby]

4 minutes ago, Richard Croft said:

I believe its affected by the gearing, so different models/manufacturers/scales etc need to be setup differently to give the same results

 

Richard

They should still give the same number of chuffs per wheel revolution irrespective of gearing, scale or anything else

Edited May 31, 2020 by melmerby

[Adrian Stevenson]

I have not had chance to fiddle around to set the chuffs per revolution yet, all new to me!

 

Cheers, Ade.

[melmerby]

28 minutes ago, Richard Croft said:

I thought the decoder detected the revolution of the wheels trough BEMF though, so it detects how fast the motor is spinning, how can it know how many times the wheels are turning from that?

 

Richard

It needs to be set up manually by the user once installed.

The decoder cannot know the gearing of what it is installed in.

 

Here's a suggestion for the future

Miniature magnet set into the back of driving wheel

Hall device mounted in chassis

Output from Hall device fed to decoder to ensure perfect synchronisation.

Come on you decoder manufacturers, give it a go.