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16 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

A tale of three Terriers...

 

June 13th Terrier 2a: Sniffing around

 

Disappointed, jaded, I decided to go downtown, and found my self in the arms of another dog. Sniffing the lonely alleyways of the bargains pages, I found an ad.. a deal too good to be true. Another pretty pooch, shiny, tweaked and cheap.. it said 20% off the 20% off.. £63 new, innocent and yellow..

 

18C9EC9A-6EF8-4D46-A5AB-8B3928D03288.jpeg.164159926310c542c657f0f417179d4d.jpeg


she does exactly what the ad says... she arrived on Monday 15th, 2 days, one of those was a Sunday, she goes like a  Terrier, smells like a Terrier, looks like a Terrier... she must be a Terrier.

I had spent my budget for the month when you posted this. Now I’ve gone over budget and ordered one. Did you ever think of marketing for Hornby or a retailer?

 

When I found out that the NRM Locomotion version was not being produced in gloss, I cancelled my order. Leadenhall looks very nice, though. One thing is noticeable; the chimney cap on the Hornby is painted whereas that on the Dapol is turned metal. It seems to add to the allure of the Dapol version.

 

It’s a very good price, £63, but much more than 20% plus 20% off RRP.

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If this thread is an accurate reflection of the quality of the model out of the box.....and in no way am I suggesting that it isn’t....then I must be exceptionally fortunate in that I did in fact receive one in 100% condition.It looks wonderful and performs well. Only Rails are in a position to reveal the accurate state of affairs with the return of those Terriers in unsatisfactory condition. Obviously they aren’t going to do that. Just suffice it to reflect that the second batch is now long overdue which may be an indication they will only be for sale when any such difficulties have been rectified. We hope that is the case. 
  
Above we read of two contrasting experiences with returns.One mystifyingly vexing and the other exemplary.Puzzling that.

 

In a few weeks,Hornby will release their improved version by which time,hopefully,Rails second batch will be all singing and all dancing.I think then we’ll perhaps get a true insight into the qualities of each version of,for instance,Brighton.
 

Patience is a virtue 

 

 

 

 

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The replacement for my much-analysed wonky chimney 32655 arrived on Wednesday. Much happier with this one. No obvious issues and runs very well.

 

Good service from Rails, especially on the communication front. Quick reply with the return label to my initial email. 11 days after posting and not hearing anything, I sent another email to check it had been received, this was confirmed very rapidly and I was assured that the replacement had been posted that morning. It arrived day 15 after I had posted the original. I assume the delay was more in the hands of Royal Mail. I am pleased the shop is now open for collection, in time for the next batch!

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On 18/06/2020 at 17:03, WisTramwayMan said:

Update on my friend's Terrier saga:

 

The replacement for the original 643 (which had missing detail) got returned as well due to broken smokebox dart, the third one ( ! ) I'm told appears A1 in all respects and runs well.

 

On Bodiam, however, which has the cab steps missing, he agreed with Rails that a set of replacement steps he could affix himself were sent ASAP. Over two weeks, and several e-mails and phone calls with various staff later, these still haven't materialised. Whether Rails or Royal Mail, don't 100% know, but given the initial issues with both models he is far from impressed.

 

I understand they've now promised to despatched them first class, within 24 hours; it'll be interesting to see if this happens or whether the "issues" with this locomotive continues. Update to follow.

 

He is also giving serious thought to cancelling his remaining 2 (both due in the second batch) due to the list of issues he's had so far.

Update - the steps eventually turned up late on Monday afternoon, and were affixed, so he now, at last, has a second complete Dapol/Rails Terrier to go with the predominantly Hornby litter....

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Managed to have a little look at the BR variet of the model. Nice model, thankfully none of the issues mentioned above. I just had to put together one of my real sound edit videos to bring it to life.
Sounds are provided by a number of similar class members from my sound collection, captured at various Gala and Preserved Railways over the past few years.
Here we see No. 32655 finished in smart BR late lined black livery in action, shunting a selection of wagon around the Quayside Warehouses on Compton Quay, my 00 Gauge Dockside Micro Layout.
Hope you enjoy!

 

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3 hours ago, SDJR7F88 said:

Managed to have a little look at the BR varient of the model. Nice model, thankfully none of the issues mentioned above.

 

Great video Callum.

 

Makes me even more excited for the sound version!

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On 20/06/2020 at 15:01, No Decorum said:

I had spent my budget for the month when you posted this. Now I’ve gone over budget and ordered one. Did you ever think of marketing for Hornby or a retailer?

 

When I found out that the NRM Locomotion version was not being produced in gloss, I cancelled my order. Leadenhall looks very nice, though. One thing is noticeable; the chimney cap on the Hornby is painted whereas that on the Dapol is turned metal. It seems to add to the allure of the Dapol version.

 

It’s a very good price, £63, but much more than 20% plus 20% off RRP.


Indeed it is. I followed the money too.Smart money as it transpired.Andrew Sawyer’s service is superb.Gnashing my teeth and not in any way wishing to be disloyal......it’s really good and frankly performs better than my 643.Slice of humble pie for dessert perhaps ? The only time I’ve bought a model out of pure curiosity....£65 delivered.


Now.Can Team Sheffield restore the faith ?

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Late version arrived here - all good and no issues. I am particularly pleased with the slow running (DC).  I think that constant flickering could get a bit annoying though.

I also have the Hornby late version - one of the first to come out. As time has gone on the running has become increasingly erratic. I finally got round to tackling the pickups, and big improvement, though I think they may turn out to be the 'Achilles Heel' for the Hornby one. If I get a third terrier it will probably be the Rails version - but lets see how that goes....

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Terrier pt 4: Dead Dog

 

Last week I was told the 3rd replacement Terrier was on its way. Following last saturdays post I was informed on Monday 22nd it was getting sorted. Here is friday and no loco, today I have a refund.

 

3B880829-0E91-4379-AA1E-FCBBE57D9885.jpeg.6b0d5eb0c5d0b621541c8b98e8cd75b7.jpeg

The lesson learned here is in my case, customer care did not feel to be a priority. There does seem to be responsive good intentions, but are unable to execute on it. (How hard is it to get a box off the shelf and put a label on it ?).

 

from my experience...

 

If you return it, just ask for a refund, they are progressed rapidly, in less than 1 business hour this morning it was done (I am told). if I had done this on 20th May, my problems would have been sorted, 37 days ago.

 

it really pains me to have to do this, Ive been a fan of Rails for years,  its a nice model and I did want it, but my principles on customer service are higher than my 39 days patience shown on what should be a straight like for like swap of an in stock item, which I could buy and have in 2 days if I went to the website right now..., I especially hope overseas buyers experiences are better than mine.

 

I have two others on order, I will keep faith they may turn out well, previous history with Rails has been good, I remain confident the future will be better and that i conclude maybe the LBSC was just a bad’un.

 

All though to brief, I will end on a positive.. I love the finish, I love the detail, I love the firebox light and finally the chimney being brass (or copper ?) is much better than a painted one. If you can get a good one it is a great one.

Oliver, Simon, thanks for trying, no hard feelings.

Time to draw a line and move on.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Terrier pt 4: Dead Dog

 

Last week I was told the 3rd replacement Terrier was on its way. Following last saturdays post I was informed on Monday 22nd it was getting sorted. Here is friday and no loco, today I have a refund.

 

3B880829-0E91-4379-AA1E-FCBBE57D9885.jpeg.6b0d5eb0c5d0b621541c8b98e8cd75b7.jpeg

The lesson learned here is in my case, customer care did not feel to be a priority. There does seem to be responsive good intentions, but are unable to execute on it. (How hard is it to get a box off the shelf and put a label on it ?).

 

from my experience...

 

If you return it, just ask for a refund, they are progressed rapidly, in less than 1 business hour this morning it was done (I am told). if I had done this on 20th May, my problems would have been sorted, 37 days ago.

 

it really pains me to have to do this, Ive been a fan of Rails for years,  its a nice model and I did want it, but my principles on customer service are higher than my 39 days patience shown on what should be a straight like for like swap of an in stock item, which I could buy and have in 2 days if I went to the website right now..., I especially hope overseas buyers experiences are better than mine.

 

I have two others on order, I will keep faith they may turn out well, previous history with Rails has been good, I remain confident the future will be better and that i conclude maybe the LBSC was just a bad’un.

 

All though to brief, I will end on a positive.. I love the finish, I love the detail, I love the firebox light and finally the chimney being brass (or copper ?) is much better than a painted one. If you can get a good one it is a great one.

Oliver, Simon, thanks for trying, no hard feelings.

Time to draw a line and move on.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi John,

 

I tried to call you. I have send you a PM


Regards

oliver 

 

 

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7 hours ago, adb968008 said:

All though to brief, I will end on a positive.. I love the finish, I love the detail, I love the firebox light and finally the chimney being brass (or copper ?) is much better than a painted one. If you can get a good one it is a great one.

I will keep the faith! I have the LBSC dcc fitted one on order. They are taking longer, presumably because they need to be fitted by Dapol and therefore slowed down by current events.

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On 26/06/2020 at 18:17, Oliver Rails said:

 

Hi John,

 

I tried to call you. I have send you a PM


Regards

oliver 

 

 

Hi Oliver,

 

good to talk to you today and thanks for the explanation.

I remain a loyal customer with my other two in order, and hopefully LBSC in the near term.

i’ll pm you separately too.

 

 

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Hello fair people of RM Web,

 

I have been following this thread for well over a year now and have had a DCC ready Brighton Gold Medal terrier on order since September but never felt the need to comment until now. I'm sure I will get some negative feedback from what I have to say but it is what I think and I'm sure you can understand that I am very frustrated. 

 

Many of you waiting on the outstanding terriers like I am are probably already aware of this message that has been on Rail's site since Monday but I will attach it here in case you are not: 

 

UPDATE 29/06/20

Delay in Terrier shipment.

A small defect has been found with the bodies on the next batch of our Terrier models. As a result, Dapol have instructed the factory to remould and re-decorate the affected models. This has unfortunately resulted in a short delay in their shipment to the UK. Whilst this is regrettable we feel it is best for all concerned that the time is taken to correct the issue now and we look forward to being able to dispatch your models to you as soon as they arrive. We expect to take delivery of the models towards the end of July (subject to us approving the new production samples)

 

Now I completely and wholeheartedly understand why the delays related to shipment have occurred but another error? Really?! I thought Dapol knew how to make proper models and that was why Rails had trusted them with so many of their exclusive projects and I thought that Dapol had basically made this model once before in 7mm, making the OO variant just a simple matter of scaling down? This clearly isn't a 'small defect' as described in the above message as it has warranted a complete remoulding and redecorating of every model, something which I believe has already happened once before not to mention an electrical fault? I must ask who on earth is in charge of QC at Dapol? I understand that people from the UK can't fly over and meet with the factory and see the product in person but other companies are seeming to manage despite the circumstances - Hornby as described on their Engine Shed blog, for example. It seems truly baffling to me that no one in the whole factory spotted a 'minor defect' that lead to a complete remould and redecoration? I don't know about you but that doesn't scream competency to me. As I have also ordered an SECR D, which is being produced by Dapol-Rails too, I am wondering whether I should just cancel it now and wait until Hornby announce it? 

 

They say patience is a virtue but they also say all things in moderation. I remember when the terrier was promised for Warley. Then it was Christmas. Then the virus interfered which was completely out of anyones hands so no complaints there, but then it was promised for March. Then it was June. And now it's July (conditionally). July doesn't sound awfully convincing now when you put it like that does it? 

 

The more this project continues, the more it seems to decay. I'm not sure how many of you have seen Matt from BluebellModelRailway's review of 643 on YouTube:

 

 

and later his great conversion series of the model from 643 to Fenchurch, but they both highlight some very profound and un-ignorable issues on the model. For example the awful gap on the roof (so the back of the cab can be exchanged easily for different versions), a truly awful piece of design if you ask me. Additionally I have seen many of the 'horror stories' of issues on this forum such as bent running plates (something which seems like more of an achievement considering they're made of die cast metal!) 

 

Let me put it this way, if I didn't already have one on pre-order which version do you think I would choose? The one that's significantly cheaper, quieter, does what it says on the tin, maybe slightly more generic but will arrive with me in two days or the one that's more expensive, has cosmetic issues built in, will likely arrive with extra faults and will arrive with me in heck knows how long? 

 

I don't blame Rails for these issues and I want to make that very clear. I think they must be feeling even worse than I am about their Terrier knowing the alternative option already on the market. I do like Rails a lot and it's sad to see this venture hasn't worked out as planned for them, they are trying to do new things and serve the customer well, which usually they succeed in doing, I guess it just didn't work out this time.  

 

Anyway that's my ten cents on it,

 

Cheers,

 

Otis    

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Otis JB said:

Hello fair people of RM Web,

 

I have been following this thread for well over a year now and have had a DCC ready Brighton Gold Medal terrier on order since September but never felt the need to comment until now. I'm sure I will get some negative feedback from what I have to say but it is what I think and I'm sure you can understand that I am very frustrated. 

 

Many of you waiting on the outstanding terriers like I am are probably already aware of this message that has been on Rail's site since Monday but I will attach it here in case you are not: 

 

UPDATE 29/06/20

Delay in Terrier shipment.

A small defect has been found with the bodies on the next batch of our Terrier models. As a result, Dapol have instructed the factory to remould and re-decorate the affected models. This has unfortunately resulted in a short delay in their shipment to the UK. Whilst this is regrettable we feel it is best for all concerned that the time is taken to correct the issue now and we look forward to being able to dispatch your models to you as soon as they arrive. We expect to take delivery of the models towards the end of July (subject to us approving the new production samples)

 

Now I completely and wholeheartedly understand why the delays related to shipment have occurred but another error? Really?! I thought Dapol knew how to make proper models and that was why Rails had trusted them with so many of their exclusive projects and I thought that Dapol had basically made this model once before in 7mm, making the OO variant just a simple matter of scaling down? This clearly isn't a 'small defect' as described in the above message as it has warranted a complete remoulding and redecorating of every model, something which I believe has already happened once before not to mention an electrical fault? I must ask who on earth is in charge of QC at Dapol? I understand that people from the UK can't fly over and meet with the factory and see the product in person but other companies are seeming to manage despite the circumstances - Hornby as described on their Engine Shed blog, for example. It seems truly baffling to me that no one in the whole factory spotted a 'minor defect' that lead to a complete remould and redecoration? I don't know about you but that doesn't scream competency to me. As I have also ordered an SECR D, which is being produced by Dapol-Rails too, I am wondering whether I should just cancel it now and wait until Hornby announce it? 

 

They say patience is a virtue but they also say all things in moderation. I remember when the terrier was promised for Warley. Then it was Christmas. Then the virus interfered which was completely out of anyones hands so no complaints there, but then it was promised for March. Then it was June. And now it's July (conditionally). July doesn't sound awfully convincing now when you put it like that does it? 

 

The more this project continues, the more it seems to decay. I'm not sure how many of you have seen Matt from BluebellModelRailway's review of 643 on YouTube:

 

 

and later his great conversion series of the model from 643 to Fenchurch, but they both highlight some very profound and un-ignorable issues on the model. For example the awful gap on the roof (so the back of the cab can be exchanged easily for different versions), a truly awful piece of design if you ask me. Additionally I have seen many of the 'horror stories' of issues on this forum such as bent running plates (something which seems like more of an achievement considering they're made of die cast metal!) 

 

Let me put it this way, if I didn't already have one on pre-order which version do you think I would choose? The one that's significantly cheaper, quieter, does what it says on the tin, maybe slightly more generic but will arrive with me in two days or the one that's more expensive, has cosmetic issues built in, will likely arrive with extra faults and will arrive with me in heck knows how long? 

 

I don't blame Rails for these issues and I want to make that very clear. I think they must be feeling even worse than I am about their Terrier knowing the alternative option already on the market. I do like Rails a lot and it's sad to see this venture hasn't worked out as planned for them, they are trying to do new things and serve the customer well, which usually they succeed in doing, I guess it just didn't work out this time.  

 

Anyway that's my ten cents on it,

 

Cheers,

 

Otis    

 

 

The word used was "defect" (albeit unspecified) not "error" - so quite possibly a production issue rather than anything wrong with the design work.

 

Not Rails fault, but quite possibly nothing to be laid at Dapol's door, either. 

 

TBH, I'm in the "wait and see" camp, I'm not overly impressed with Hornby's effort (though it's not as bad as I originally thought). Could be I don't bother with a 4mm Terrier at all....

 

John

 

 

 

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33 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

The word used was "defect" (albeit unspecified) not "error" - so quite possibly a production issue rather than anything wrong with the design work.

 

Not Rails fault, but quite possibly nothing to be laid at Dapol's door, either. 

 

TBH, I'm in the "wait and see" camp, I'm not overly impressed with Hornby's effort (though it's not as bad as I originally thought). Could be I don't bother with a 4mm Terrier at all....

 

John

 

 

 

Thanks, I suppose that is something to keep in mind but it is rather frustrating as a decoration error has already been found and supposedly rectified once before. I still find it very confusing how no one noticed such a thing had happened again unless the factory is left to its own devices to carry out production.

 

I agree with you about the Hornby terrier, it's nothing to shout about but when you compare it with Rail's described offerings it looks much more tame than the so-called 'pedigree'

 

Otis 

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7 hours ago, Otis JB said:

Thanks, I suppose that is something to keep in mind but it is rather frustrating as a decoration error has already been found and supposedly rectified once before. I still find it very confusing how no one noticed such a thing had happened again unless the factory is left to its own devices to carry out production.

 

I agree with you about the Hornby terrier, it's nothing to shout about but when you compare it with Rail's described offerings it looks much more tame than the so-called 'pedigree'

 

Otis 


The factory is thousands of miles away, it is left to its own devices to carry out production, that is the modern way. Dapol / Rails will have approved a pre-production model, if the factory then the misses a bit off, that will not be spotted by Dapol until they get here. 
 

Riy

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10 hours ago, Otis JB said:

Thanks, I suppose that is something to keep in mind but it is rather frustrating as a decoration error has already been found and supposedly rectified once before. I still find it very confusing how no one noticed such a thing had happened again unless the factory is left to its own devices to carry out production.

 

I agree with you about the Hornby terrier, it's nothing to shout about but when you compare it with Rail's described offerings it looks much more tame than the so-called 'pedigree'

 

Otis 


 

it would probably be hypocritical of me to say have patience, after venting my experience. :wacko:
However after speaking with Oliver I feel much more informed now than I was, and in retrospect would have been more forgiving If I knew back then. :drink_mini:

 

Fwiw, My short experience, I still think the Rails one has the potential edge on the Hornby one.. The chimney, the wheels, print quality, firebox glow just feels like I have a better model. The Hornby one is nice, dont get me wrong, but a turned metal chimney on the Rails Terrier beats a painted one... its little things like that.


Admittedly Ive not been able to do a technical test, yet, or go into it as much as i’d like, but ..

 

Ive not canceled my preorders..

i’m still in for 2 more, and havent given out on the LBSC just yet...

 

Tooth paste is hard to put back in the tube, so I will be hypocritical.. and say have patience and await the rebooted Terrier.

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:


The factory is thousands of miles away, it is left to its own devices to carry out production, that is the modern way. Dapol / Rails will have approved a pre-production model, if the factory then the misses a bit off, that will not be spotted by Dapol until they get here. 
 

Riy

 

Thanks for the information Roy. I was under the impression that companies like Hornby were sent pictures along the stages of production and kept a close eye on what the factory was up to. Additionally, I know that Rapido for example definitely have a close relationship with their premisses in China as highlighted in their various entertaining update vlogs on YouTube. In my opinion, even it is the 'modern way' for most other companies including Dapol, it seems rather foolish just to leave the factory alone, especially as multiple faults have been discovered already with these models. I might also say again that this model has already been made once by Dapol in 7mm and yet it's still taking this long. The time from announcement to production (for the first batch not including the time to rectify mistakes), was longer than the time it takes to create many models that have never been made before in RTR in any scale. 

 

Otis 

 

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5 minutes ago, Otis JB said:

 

Thanks for the information Roy. I was under the impression that companies like Hornby were sent pictures along the stages of production and kept a close eye on what the factory was up to. Additionally, I know that Rapido for example definitely have a close relationship with their premisses in China as highlighted in their various entertaining update vlogs on YouTube. In my opinion, even it is the 'modern way' for most other companies including Dapol, it seems rather foolish just to leave the factory alone, especially as multiple faults have been discovered already with these models. I might also say again that this model has already been made once by Dapol in 7mm and yet it's still taking this long. The time from announcement to production (for the first batch not including the time to rectify mistakes), was longer than the time it takes to create many models that have never been made before in RTR in any scale. 

 

Otis 

 

 

But there is a lead time that can't be shortened, yes the CAD may be quicker, but you still have to book time to cut the tools, review an EP, amend tooling, assess livery samples etc. Most of all, you have  to book a production slot in China, and that may actually be the critical path activity so even if you have the CAD, tooling and livery artwork ready, it may still take the same length of time. That is all before we consider impacts such as the Chinese New Year holiday, the loss of staff from that, factories being family run and shutting  without notice, COVID...

 

Yes it is frustrating but, as they* say, patience is a virtue. I waited a hell of a lot longer for my 4TC, Warship and I am still waiting for my 2HAP, VEAs etc.

 

*whoever "they" are.


Roy

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8 hours ago, adb968008 said:


 

it would probably be hypocritical of me to say have patience, after venting my experience. :wacko:
However after speaking with Oliver I feel much more informed now than I was, and in retrospect would have been more forgiving If I knew back then. :drink_mini:

 

Fwiw, My short experience, I still think the Rails one has the potential edge on the Hornby one.. The chimney, the wheels, print quality, firebox glow just feels like I have a better model. The Hornby one is nice, dont get me wrong, but a turned metal chimney on the Rails Terrier beats a painted one... its little things like that.


Admittedly Ive not been able to do a technical test, yet, or go into it as much as i’d like, but ..

 

Ive not canceled my preorders..

i’m still in for 2 more, and havent given out on the LBSC just yet...

 

Tooth paste is hard to put back in the tube, so I will be hypocritical.. and say have patience and await the rebooted Terrier.

 

 

 

 

Yes I agree that with more information that I would feel much better about the whole thing. I truly believe that Rails are trying their hardest to help and keep the customer informed and have just been let down again and again by Dapol. For me, the whole deal seems to look even worse due to the constant promises, I respect that Rails didn't know what was ahead when they made them and are trying to be helpful based on Dapol's info at the time but it is hard to believe them at this point. It has just been promise after promise after promise. I personally do not believe they will be here with us at the end of this month, whether that's because of a decoration error or an oversight in the electrics, something else will happen. 

 

I am still looking forward to my terrier and I can't do anything but be patient but this is crazy. If I knew about all of this at the start then I'm not sure I would have spent my money with this partnership. The dedication we have as consumers in this hobby is pretty staggering sometimes. We have all invested ourself into this model now and that is what I think is keeping us from going to the alternative more than the extra details. 

 

Thanks, 

 

Otis 

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10 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

But there is a lead time that can't be shortened, yes the CAD may be quicker, but you still have to book time to cut the tools, review an EP, amend tooling, assess livery samples etc. Most of all, you have  to book a production slot in China, and that may actually be the critical path activity so even if you have the CAD, tooling and livery artwork ready, it may still take the same length of time. That is all before we consider impacts such as the Chinese New Year holiday, the loss of staff from that, factories being family run and shutting  without notice, COVID...

 

Yes it is frustrating but, as they* say, patience is a virtue. I waited a hell of a lot longer for my 4TC, Warship and I am still waiting for my 2HAP, VEAs etc.

 

*whoever "they" are.


Roy

 

That is a very interesting point if true. I don't know whether Dapol have their own factory or not, I thought that most manufactures did but if they are outsourcing that would explain things a lot more. I obviously don't know enough about the subject of manufacturing in China, I have based most of my analysis on Rapido's model of production as they are the only company who document what happens in the way they do.

 

I guess it could always be worse but that doesn't give me solace, it just makes me more unhopeful and dreadful. I usually am the optimist but not at the moment.

 

Thanks,

 

Otis

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3 hours ago, Otis JB said:

 

That is a very interesting point if true. I don't know whether Dapol have their own factory or not, I thought that most manufactures did but if they are outsourcing that would explain things a lot more. I obviously don't know enough about the subject of manufacturing in China, I have based most of my analysis on Rapido's model of production as they are the only company who document what happens in the way they do.

 

I guess it could always be worse but that doesn't give me solace, it just makes me more unhopeful and dreadful. I usually am the optimist but not at the moment.

 

Thanks,

 

Otis

 

Very few own their own factory. Even Bachmann don't own a factory, but their parent company (Kader) does. As I understand it, they still have to obtain slots on a commercial basis, competing with Kader owned companies.


Roy

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