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Rails of Sheffield/Dapol/NRM Announce OO gauge Stroudley A1/A1X


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On 02/10/2020 at 23:11, Les1952 said:

 

There is almost certainly no hard and fast rule for what Maunsell green was in Maunsell's time.  Reason as follows-

 

1.  paint pigments were made up as required and were generally not stable, so the stuff you bought in last month will have become a different shade by the time this month's arrives.

 

2.  these pigments were mixed together by the bucket- "add two buckets of this to three buckets of that" etc.  The size of the fill in a given bucket depended on who was filling it and became smaller towards the end of the shift as said person became tired.

 

 

I remain deeply unconvinced by this line of argument. The railway companies had detailed paint specifications - certainly forming part of the contract for work by outside locomotive and carriage-building firms. Paint technology was developing in the inter-war period, so there's every reason to suppose that the manufacturing process was producing a consistent pigment. 

 

Can anyone advance any documentary evidence to support the rough-and-ready procedures suggested - at least in the paint shop of a major locomotive or carriage works? All I ever read is assertion.

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"in artificial light. Same light that made mine look that way before. It suggests to me that certain conditions bring that out, while others blend the different colours on these models."

 

It's property called metamerism. Your four locos may well be painted by a different combination of pigments by the different manufacturers. In the plastics industry we typically used white, black, and two hue controllers (to allow adjustment in production due to batch to batch to batch variations in individual raw materials). If the different manufacturers have used a different green and therefore a different blue or yellow to control the hue, then they will have different reflective curves and therefore may well look different in different lights sources.

In engineering polypropylene matches which I was involved with for many years, we usually matched in artificial daylight (there was a industry standard tube, which had a finite life), often in tungsten (to replicate household use at the time), sometimes in TL84 (the Marks and Spencer pinkish light), and very occasionally in UV for specialist applications. All done in a light cabinet of a neutral grey, glossing everything to a similar level, and placing the items next to of overlapping each other, no gaps. 

If the standard was ABS, as they often were, and we were trying to match in PP, we were usually ok matching in one given light source, but switching to an alternative could produce significant differences, as we were restricted to dry pigments, but they could use dyestuffs in ABS.

 

TL84 was an extreme example, Marks fitted it throughout their stores, in 1984 (!), because it was 1) very cheap to run 2) enhanced the red/ pinkness of their fresh meat. However, as it was only 3 discrete wavelengths, not a curve, as most light sources are, it could cause immense colourmatching issues in the clothing departments, which was why (mainly) ladies of a certain age would take items which they were trying to match (coat with bag or whatever) into the street to check, rather than rely on the unusual charactistics of the stores lights.

 

So in the this case, unless all the manufacturers agree to use the same combination of paints to achieve what they believe to be the correct colour (that in itself is very debatable), than the phenomenon that you describe is almost inevitable.

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On 03/10/2020 at 09:39, Oliver Rails said:

Upon a recent review process we took the decision to reevaluate and slightly improve the installation method

 

Since I've already got one of your first batch of sound fitted Terriers , is it possible to know what has been changed, and if the change should be retrofitted  to the earlier locos ?

 

Many thanks,

 

Jim

 

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So, let's take them out into what passes for daylight this far north at this season ....

 

Again, the only points I would make is that they are, unsurprisingly in my view, each different from the others, and that I'm content with them all!  But for what it's worth .... 

 

20201007_090947.jpg.0f7a591a6819e31d63077c1f03977b14.jpg

 

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20201007_091210.jpg

 

20201007_091510.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Edwardian
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21 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I remain deeply unconvinced by this line of argument. The railway companies had detailed paint specifications - certainly forming part of the contract for work by outside locomotive and carriage-building firms. Paint technology was developing in the inter-war period, so there's every reason to suppose that the manufacturing process was producing a consistent pigment. 

 

Can anyone advance any documentary evidence to support the rough-and-ready procedures suggested - at least in the paint shop of a major locomotive or carriage works? All I ever read is assertion.

Me too! What is also forgotten is that there is a skill in matching colours by eye and that skill has been largely, or perhaps completely, lost because of the rise in a technology which has made it redundant. It has not yet been lost in steel making, for example, where the colours of the metal in the furnace is all important to the quality of the product.

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2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

20201007_091114.jpg

 

 

I'm with Edwardian on this - This photo is a perfect example of why the whole argument about exact shades of green is ridiculous - The cabside, splashers and boiler of the C are, I presume, all exactly the same colour - yet they clearly look different, thanks to the differentces in lining and lighting - and that's without the changes that would affect the real thing over time - pigments in those days were nowhere near as colour-stable as those we have now.

 

Another good example, though too modern for this thread, is BR coach crimson - if you paint a coach in the correct shade, it looks wrong - because reds fade so badly (just ask anyone who has ever owned a red car...), a 'faded' shade looks much more 'right' for anything that isn't immediately ex-works.

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3 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

Not the clearest picture, and in artificial light. Same light that made mine look that way before. It suggests to me that certain conditions bring that out, while others blend the different colours on these models. 

 

 

Yes, the colour temperature of the lighting  can have a significant effect on the colour match. Taking an extreme example, SWMBO used to have a brown Metro which looked fine in daylight, but under streetlighting the rear was a drastically different shade to the front, due to a cheap respray after accident damage.

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4 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 Hornby and Hattons are reasonably similar to each other .........  The slightly brighter pair are Bachmann and Rails/Dapol.

 

I was told by the Bluebell that when Hornby and Bachmann were researching their respective locomotive, both companies took colour measurements off the C Class, Bachmann direct from the side of the loco, Hornby from under the numberplate to get a fresher colour.

 

So if the Rails/Dapol terrier is like Bachmann, then it just represents the colour after a few years in the sun, which seems a perfectly reasonable way to present a model to me

 

Gary

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Well Fishbourne arrived and at least runs well compared to the BR one I’ve had to send back again. 
Here’s a comparison of the Hornby and Rails IoW locos.

Have to admit I slightly prefer the Hornby printing of the buffer beam and nameplate surround but the Rails smokebox looks better to my eyes. I like them both :) 

AF18EABE-3E27-432A-BEB1-510F1C28A23B.jpeg.be95d66e9ca8602e033346cde83829fe.jpeg

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29 minutes ago, BlueLightning said:

So if the Rails/Dapol terrier is like Bachmann, then it just represents the colour after a few years in the sun, which seems a perfectly reasonable way to present a model to me

 

It represents the colour obtained with modern paint technology after a few years in the sun. Quite a different matter to turn-of-the-century paint, coupled with re-varnishings...

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15 minutes ago, BlueLightning said:

 

I was told by the Bluebell that when Hornby and Bachmann were researching their respective locomotive, both companies took colour measurements off the C Class, Bachmann direct from the side of the loco, Hornby from under the numberplate to get a fresher colour.

 

So if the Rails/Dapol terrier is like Bachmann, then it just represents the colour after a few years in the sun, which seems a perfectly reasonable way to present a model to me

 

Gary

 

I found Tim Hall's most informative post (above) on metamerism persuasive, as it shows that arriving at similar colours via different combinations of pigments (if I understood aright) leads to the sort of variation seen in the photos.  Not a point that is apparent when contemplating a livery chart.

 

I do take your point. I also take Nick C's very important point that different angles or planes are showing different colours on the same loco in some instances. 

 

To answer Stephen, I agree; I suspect the diligence of the D Class restoration probably means that it is the closest to actual Wainwright green we are likely to see.  

 

As you know from my ramblings elsewhere, often when someone wants to know the exact shade of a grey wagon in the Nineteenth Century, I tend to think precise shade matching is an illusory goal.  Quite apart from the fact that colour does not scale - paint a 4mm model with a pot of Ashford's Brunswick green and it'll probably look nearly black! - we've seen some excellent illustrations in this topic - both of prototype locos and models - of how varied the same colour on the same loco can look at different angles and in different lighting conditions. That's before we get to the effects of aging, bleaching, weathering and dirt! 

 

That gives me confidence that, if I ever have a layout with that accommodates all the RTR and kit-built locos I have in fully lined Wainwright livery, I won't need to worry about the slight variation between the models and they will not look odd together. 

 

In some conditions, the Hornby and Rails/Dapol greens look the closest, yet in others its the Hornby and the Hattons.  The Bachmann tends to look the most yellow-green, and is the one that probably offers the most contrast to the others, and the Rails/Dapol the most blue-green, but none of them I think could be said to be wrong. Or, as you say, perhaps three of them are right and the C Class 'not wrong'! 

 

This one is enjoying the sun while it lasts!

 

1506937431_20201007_091551-Copy.jpg.411733217fa2c086a9becaf4cfaa6298.jpg

 

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A short running session featuring the highly anticipated Rails of Sheffield Stroudley A1X 'Terrier' 0-6-0T, edited with real sound. 
Sounds are provided by a number of similar class members from my sound collection, captured at various Gala and Preserved Railways over the past few years.
Here we see No.5 finished in smart GWR Green livery in action, hauling a short rake of GWR clerestory coaches.
Hope you enjoy!

 

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10 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I remain deeply unconvinced by this line of argument. The railway companies had detailed paint specifications - certainly forming part of the contract for work by outside locomotive and carriage-building firms. Paint technology was developing in the inter-war period, so there's every reason to suppose that the manufacturing process was producing a consistent pigment. 

 

Can anyone advance any documentary evidence to support the rough-and-ready procedures suggested - at least in the paint shop of a major locomotive or carriage works? All I ever read is assertion.

 

I CAN produce documentary evidence in the form of works sheets kept at York Museum that state when locomotives were given a light repair at quite a lot of works pre-grouping the loco was not fully repainted (maybe a partial paint if necessarily) but they WERE given a coat of varnish over their existing paintwork.

 

An extra coat of varnish has the effect of slightly yellowing a green or red paint, and turning whites to creams and creams to yellow.  A loco with an extra coat of varnish would be ex-works a different colour to one just repainted.

 

It was most evident when applied to blood and custard coaches where the crimson had faded. The orange and yellow liveries produced by Dapol in the early George Smith years were a good representation of a blood and custard coach after a few years service and a couple of revarnishings over the existing livery.

 

Les

 

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I find @Tim Hall's explanation for the differences in colour compelling.

 

11 hours ago, Edwardian said:

The answer, of course, if one wants a uniform stud, is to paint and line them oneself or use the same manufacturer's lining transfers for them all!  You'll need to stick to the same paint, possibly from the same tin/batch (!), the same undercoat, the same varnish etc.

 

From my perspective, the bigger issue is the difference in hue between the Hornby/Rails/Bachmann SR locomotives. If the Bachmann (H1) and Rails (Terrier) were lighter variants of my Hornby stable (T9, N15, V, S15, LN) then I could put it down to age. As it is, the Bachy is darker and the Rails is bluer. The lining isn't as complex as SECR, so a repaint's not impossible, but I'm tempted to just give them a bit of weathering and fubar.

 

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And to think I considered myself pedantic over the application of Hornby’s GW green........Is the “correct” green attainable......or maybe it’s a question of “A man’s reach is to exceed his grasp......Or what’s a Heaven for ? “ ( Quote R.Browning ) 

 

The above lightheartedly penned in relief and not to be taken too seriously. My son does not have to face his 

potentially Covid infected undergraduates for now after playing a game of Russian Roulette with the poor souls in ever decreasing numbers on Tyneside for a while. Ignore the venting if you will....mea maxima culpa with apologies 

 

In penance,another Terrier is in contemplation......

 

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The shade of Olive Green changed over the years, the colour by the late 30's was a darker shade than that of the late 20's.  The darker shade is sometimes referred to as Eastleigh Green and the lighter shade Ashford Green but I believe the are more separated by date applied rather than location. Very early SR green was different again, this was Sage Green which was a late LSWR colour and it also has a light olive appearance.

Take your pick.

 

Pete

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52 minutes ago, IWCR said:

The shade of Olive Green changed over the years, the colour by the late 30's was a darker shade than that of the late 20's. 

 

Now, was that due to a change in the paint specification, or a change in varnishing practice? 

 

If you'll forgive me for making reference to the other line, I've seen the argument made that Great Western middle chrome green was always the same colour but down the years fewer coats of varnish were applied, and perhaps the varnish changed too, giving rise to the perception of a darkening of the colour. 

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44 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Now, was that due to a change in the paint specification, or a change in varnishing practice? 

 

I have no idea, but feel that if in model terms it legitimises the shade we might choose, does it matter?

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No  a shade change did take place with the later green quite a bit darker.

Yes repeated varnishing will darken both of them.  There would have been a change in paint specification to reflect the colour change, wether this altered the materials the paint was made from I dont know.

 

Pete

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9 minutes ago, IWCR said:

No  a shade change did take place with the later green quite a bit darker.

Yes repeated varnishing will darken both of them.  There would have been a change in paint specification to reflect the colour change, wether this altered the materials the paint was made from I dont know.

 

I presume this is documented in the HMRS's Southern Style?

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23 hours ago, IWCR said:

The shade of Olive Green changed over the years, the colour by the late 30's was a darker shade than that of the late 20's.  The darker shade is sometimes referred to as Eastleigh Green and the lighter shade Ashford Green but I believe the are more separated by date applied rather than location. Very early SR green was different again, this was Sage Green which was a late LSWR colour and it also has a light olive appearance.

Speaking from a completely uneducated POV regarding colour theory, there is (IMO) a difference between brightness/lightness and hue. Maunsell olive green may have varied in terms of light/dark shade, but that was not what I was referring to when I commented on bluer green (vs. e.g. yellower).

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The Olive Green loses some of the yellow to weathering within two or three years, this is with modern paints and I assume the same happened with the original pigments.  The result is a darker and bluer shade. This is visible on vehicles which have had the paintwork touched up with any fresh patches noticeably yellower than the original finish even with careful tinting with black to darken the new paint.

I have been involved with SR carriage restoration for nearly 40 years including many Olive Green vehicles, you can always find original paint samples in protected locations such as door edges which have not been weathered, these spots also do not get repeated varnishing.  The different layers of paint are clear and the change in shade can be seen.  I have seen references to an official  change in the shade of Olive but I couldnt tell you where.

 

Pete

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2 hours ago, IWCR said:

The Olive Green loses some of the yellow to weathering within two or three years, this is with modern paints and I assume the same happened with the original pigments.  The result is a darker and bluer shade. This is visible on vehicles which have had the paintwork touched up with any fresh patches noticeably yellower than the original finish even with careful tinting with black to darken the new paint.

I have been involved with SR carriage restoration for nearly 40 years including many Olive Green vehicles, you can always find original paint samples in protected locations such as door edges which have not been weathered, these spots also do not get repeated varnishing.  The different layers of paint are clear and the change in shade can be seen.  I have seen references to an official  change in the shade of Olive but I couldnt tell you where.

 

Pete

Thank you, Pete. This reassures me that I can keep the Terrier (and Bachy H1) 'as is', given that they are aged.

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