Rails of Sheffield/Dapol/NRM Announce OO gauge Stroudley A1/A1X

[woodenhead]

29 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

I think it’s either the position or the lining that’s squeezed the look in the photos. I’ve got Thames in O and that looks right but the lining just looks wider on the OO photos. Will be interesting to see a front on shot. 

I agree it could be a livery application challenge that makes it look wide eyed, no-one mentions the wheels being too close together do they.

 

To me if I was to buy a Terrier I would be more concerned about the Hornby buffer arrangement than the face of the Rails loco and if neither loco is perfect it leaves a gap for Rapido or Accurascale to do a model too

 

@PaulRhB can you get a shot of the Mogul please.

Edited March 23, 2019 by woodenhead
adding a request

[PaulRhB]

Yep once I’ve finished lunch 2 the sequel  

[JSpencer]

4 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Well, I've been away for a couple of days and see that I have quite a bit here to read through.

 

A few comments in haste ....

 

- I think that the position of the front spectacles is something well-worth Rails/Dapol checking.

 

- Without committing to a view on the A1X smoke-box (all a bit modern for me!), I am not sure how reliable an example the preserved Bodiam would prove to be as it's been very heavily restored in that area, so just a note of caution.

 

-  The Bodiam we have seen in the Rails sample pictures is certainly as in service with the K&ESR in the 1900s, not as preserved. She was sold out of service in 1901 in her then A1 condition.  She shows none of the later physical changes. She is, however, in early K&ESR, which, since the line was, I believe, call the Rother Valley until 1904, must have been applied following that.  There is a picture in Middlemass showing her in the same condition as the Rails/Dapol model.    

 

I believe the paint scheme did not change between the RVR and KESR. The LBSCR paint both engines in the same companies blue prior to delivery, one in 1901 (RVR era) one in 1905 (KESR era). 

No colour drawing seems to exist from the time but would guess that the LBSCR applied the blue in the same way they applied their own main colours.

Both had air braking remove (including the pump) and vacuum fitted.

 

Bodiam remained in A1 condition until 1943! Rolvenden having been cannibalised in the early 30s to allow this. That said pics of Bodiam in the 30s shows some modifications. The bunker was enlarged with the tool box removed, pics of her in the 70s still show her bunker like this. The side tanks also show she gained 12 retaining bolts while still retaining the A1 boiler.

When she gained the A1X boiler, she still retained many A1 features and looked something of hybrid not far off Dapol's old model!

[JSpencer]

50 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

I agree it could be a livery application challenge that makes it look wide eyed, no-one mentions the wheels being too close together do they.

 

To me if I was to buy a Terrier I would be more concerned about the Hornby buffer arrangement than the face of the Rails loco and if neither loco is perfect it leaves a gap for Rapido or Accurascale to do a model too

 

@PaulRhB can you get a shot of the Mogul please.

 

The spectacle plate, for now, does not concern me as the photos are not really decisive enough to conclude anything - yet. But those Hornby buffers really do look wrong, though I still brought Rolvenden 

Rapido are already doing the stretched super terrier (E1) for ModelRail. So if Hornby or Rails Teriers fail to please someone, they do have a 3rd choice.

[PaulRhB]

This might help

 

 

[woodenhead]

From that angle it hasn't made a spectacle of itself

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, JSpencer said:

 

I believe the paint scheme did not change between the RVR and KESR. The LBSCR paint both engines in the same companies blue prior to delivery, one in 1901 (RVR era) one in 1905 (KESR era). 

No colour drawing seems to exist from the time but would guess that the LBSCR applied the blue in the same way they applied their own main colours.

Both had air braking remove (including the pump) and vacuum fitted.

 

Bodiam remained in A1 condition until 1943! Rolvenden having been cannibalised in the early 30s to allow this. That said pics of Bodiam in the 30s shows some modifications. The bunker was enlarged with the tool box removed, pics of her in the 70s still show her bunker like this. The side tanks also show she gained 12 retaining bolts while still retaining the A1 boiler.

When she gained the A1X boiler, she still retained many A1 features and looked something of hybrid not far off Dapol's old model!

 

Much as I understand it and IIRC Brighton did indeed paint the loco blue - I think that's mentioned in RCTS.

 

My point really is that it could not presumably have said "Kent & East Sussex" on the tanks before 1904, unless the name was unofficially adopted earlier - don't know that much about the K&ESR.  Otherwise I would expect the livery would have been the same as when she left Brighton.

[Captain Kernow]

Thanks for the photos, Paul.

 

Both this loco and the Hornby one pass the Captain's 'Black 5**' test, ie. 'if it looks like a Black 5** then it must be a Black 5 **'.

 

What will probably swing it for me, though (not that I need any kind of Terrier or other canine-themed locomotives) is the fact that the Rails one has a sprung centre axle, which should aid electrical pick-up and running.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

** Other locomotive types are available.

 

[Anglian]

5 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

In the Dapol cabinet

 

 

 

Close as I can get to head on  

 

 

The spectacles aren't even the same distance from the edge on each side. That may or may not be prototypical but I'll stick my neck out and suggest not.

I think Rails have got to take a look at this. This model could be the definitive Terrier and it has the potential to eclipse the Hornby model but only with some remedial work. It would be such as shame to have two manufacturers make this locomotive, that has been sought after for a good number of years, only for them both to have significant and very obvious errors.

 

 

Edited March 23, 2019 by Anglian

[Captain Kernow]

22 minutes ago, Anglian said:

 

 

The spectacles aren't even the same distance from the edge on each side. That may or may not be prototypical but I'll stick my neck out and suggest not.

I think Rails have got to take a look at this. This model could be the definitive Terrier and it has the potential to eclipse the Hornby model but only with some remedial work. It would be such as shame to have two manufacturers make this locomotive, that has been sought after for a good number of years, only for them both to have significant and very obvious errors.

 

 

They look pretty much symmetrical in this view:

 

[PaulRhB]

They are symmetrical it’s the angle, which is why this debate started because it’s very hard to tell unless the angles are identical  . Very difficult to tell unless straight on. The certainly aren’t offset on the black one but the corner of the cabinet prevented a shot from that angle. Until you can get hands on it’s hard to tell because there are so many reflections and optical tricks unless you match real and model angles precisely. 

[trevor7598]

A couple of views of the NRM's Boxhill, hope they are of use in the debate.

Having seen both makes today close up, my money is still with Rails.

[Ian J.]

I think it's possible the spectacle plates are all of slightly too high; slightly small; slightly too far apart. To my eyes there's definitely some checking to do, and modification to get them correct to prototype.

[mikesndbs]

Looks great, I think the window issue is solved.

 

But by far the biggest problem I have is the chimney! the cap clearly plugs into the body of the chimney that comes up to meet it and folds away under it.

Can anyone assure me that this will be right on the production models please?

Edited March 24, 2019 by mikesndbs

[JSpencer]

15 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

Much as I understand it and IIRC Brighton did indeed paint the loco blue - I think that's mentioned in RCTS.

 

My point really is that it could not presumably have said "Kent & East Sussex" on the tanks before 1904, unless the name was unofficially adopted earlier - don't know that much about the K&ESR.  Otherwise I would expect the livery would have been the same as when she left Brighton.

 

I have the impression looking at the few scarce photos that before the railway was renamed KESR, the locos did not carry the RVR name. Only the loco name was carried.

[Anglian]

I've taken the image of the real Stepney cab front plate, that I provided a link to earlier and measured up the spectacles. On the real loco, if I add a third window between them they overlap. So essentially the distance between the two is the equivalent of the glass portion of the window. I can't show this as I've used a copyright image to do this.

 

I've taken one the images posted here of the model and added the third window between the two. I'd say the windows are both two small and too far apart. In fact the distance by which they are separated is in the region of 50% too far apart. That is a significant amount. 

 

The second image I've posted is a very quick cut and shut job without doing any retouching to correct the livery but I've shown approximately how much the windows need to increase in size by and how much closer they need to be to match the prototype. I've got the windows too large then they need to move even closer together.

 

 

 

Edited March 24, 2019 by Anglian
Added second image

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, JSpencer said:

 

I have the impression looking at the few scarce photos that before the railway was renamed KESR, the locos did not carry the RVR name. Only the loco name was carried.

 

That's useful to know, thanks.

 

So, I assume that, at some point c.1904, the new company name was probably added to the existing livery, painted round the loco name on the side tanks?

[Pre Grouping fan]

1 hour ago, mikesndbs said:

Looks great, I think the window issue is solved.

 

But by far the biggest problem I have is the chimney! the cap clearly plugs into the body of the chimney that comes up to meet it and folds away under it.

Can anyone assure me that this will be right on the production models please?

These are only First EP samples so rails themselves have said there are tweaks to do. If you want confirmation about an issue it may be best to email rails themselves

[JSpencer]

3 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

That's useful to know, thanks.

 

So, I assume that, at some point c.1904, the new company name was probably added to the existing livery, painted round the loco name on the side tanks?

That is what I think happened looking at the very few, not very clear photos I've seen.

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, JSpencer said:

That is what I think happened looking at the very few, not very clear photos I've seen.

 

Makes perfect sense, thanks a lot for checking and letting us know. 

[Silly Moo]

There has been some discussion on Facebook about the two new Terriers with one person posing an interesting question, which loco would be better in terms of guarantee and long term spares availability? 

 

I expect that Hornby will be building theirs for years whereas the Rails/Dapol version might be a limited run. 

 

I couldn’t see anything on the Rails website about a guarantee. I’m not unduly worried about it myself as I have found that most of my N gauge Dapol locos have been very good if looked after properly. 

[Edwardian]

I don't see any reason to suppose that Dapol's would be a limited run.  Both manufacturers can, and doubtless will, get years and years out of the tooling.  Dapol, of course, does not lead such a threatened existence as its rival, but even if Hornby went belly-up tomorrow, I daresay someone would pick up the tooling and carrying on churning. 

 

I know that there have been issues with Hornby spares in the recent past, but I have no idea what Dapol's spares record or policy is.  Why not ask them?

Edited March 24, 2019 by Edwardian
spelling!

[The Stationmaster]

19 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

They are symmetrical it’s the angle, which is why this debate started because it’s very hard to tell unless the angles are identical  . Very difficult to tell unless straight on. The certainly aren’t offset on the black one but the corner of the cabinet prevented a shot from that angle. Until you can get hands on it’s hard to tell because there are so many reflections and optical tricks unless you match real and model angles precisely. 

Agreed, it was rather difficult to get the decisive (in my opinion) head-on view which might settle things once and for all.  But overall it looked suitably dainty and to me had a bit more Terrierness to it than the Hornby. version although that might be down to a matter of taste or whatever rather than exact dimensions etc.

 

I understand there might be 'some tooling changes' before release although what that might  involve I really don't.

 

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

I don't see any reason to suppose that Dapol's would be a limited run.  Both manufacturers can, and doubtless will, get years and years out of the tooling.  Dapol, of course, does not lead such a threatened existence as its rival, but even if Hornby went belly-up tomorrow, I daresay someone would pick up the tooling and carrying on churning. 

 

I know that there have been issues with Hornby spares in the resent past, but I have no idea what Dapol's spares record or policy is.  Why not ask them?

I don't think we can ever forecast who is or isn't going to go belly up and when.  Dapol were in a terrible financial position not many years ago and quite a number of people were amazed that they actually managed to survive.  But instead have probably gone from strength to strength both because of the tie-in with Lionheart and some fire sales to clear the piles of slow moving/unsold stock which at one stage littered their warehouse.  Overall they seem to have acquired a whole new purpose in life in the past couple of years.

 

Hornby are of course trying to get themselves forward from a period of massive losses but Phoenix have retained their faith in the future of the company and the latest management could well pull the firm back from the brink, LCD is certainly exuding confidence and doing some good things for the company.

 

But who can forecast the future or any part of it with a fickle economy and some once seemingly rock solid department store groups going down like ninepins?

[Ian Hargrave]

1 hour ago, Silly Moo said:

There has been some discussion on Facebook about the two new Terriers with one person posing an interesting question, which loco would be better in terms of guarantee and long term spares availability? 

 

I expect that Hornby will be building theirs for years whereas the Rails/Dapol version might be a limited run. 

 

I couldn’t see anything on the Rails website about a guarantee. I’m not unduly worried about it myself as I have found that most of my N gauge Dapol locos have been very good if looked after properly. 

 

I’m afraid spares are a vexed question with Hornby and they are not unique.You have no guarantee that they are or will be available.It seems to be the way that distance ( China ) manufacturing works.Contact both Dapol and Hornby and ask their advice.Carrying stocks of spares is unprofitable and occupies valuable space.

[Silly Moo]

I’ve asked Rails about their Terrier but I suspect that everyone is busy at Ally Pally this weekend so it will be a couple of days before they reply.