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Rails of Sheffield/Dapol/NRM Announce OO gauge Stroudley A1/A1X


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The shade of Olive Green changed over the years, the colour by the late 30's was a darker shade than that of the late 20's.  The darker shade is sometimes referred to as Eastleigh Green and the lighter shade Ashford Green but I believe the are more separated by date applied rather than location. Very early SR green was different again, this was Sage Green which was a late LSWR colour and it also has a light olive appearance.

Take your pick.

 

Pete

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52 minutes ago, IWCR said:

The shade of Olive Green changed over the years, the colour by the late 30's was a darker shade than that of the late 20's. 

 

Now, was that due to a change in the paint specification, or a change in varnishing practice? 

 

If you'll forgive me for making reference to the other line, I've seen the argument made that Great Western middle chrome green was always the same colour but down the years fewer coats of varnish were applied, and perhaps the varnish changed too, giving rise to the perception of a darkening of the colour. 

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44 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Now, was that due to a change in the paint specification, or a change in varnishing practice? 

 

I have no idea, but feel that if in model terms it legitimises the shade we might choose, does it matter?

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No  a shade change did take place with the later green quite a bit darker.

Yes repeated varnishing will darken both of them.  There would have been a change in paint specification to reflect the colour change, wether this altered the materials the paint was made from I dont know.

 

Pete

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9 minutes ago, IWCR said:

No  a shade change did take place with the later green quite a bit darker.

Yes repeated varnishing will darken both of them.  There would have been a change in paint specification to reflect the colour change, wether this altered the materials the paint was made from I dont know.

 

I presume this is documented in the HMRS's Southern Style?

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23 hours ago, IWCR said:

The shade of Olive Green changed over the years, the colour by the late 30's was a darker shade than that of the late 20's.  The darker shade is sometimes referred to as Eastleigh Green and the lighter shade Ashford Green but I believe the are more separated by date applied rather than location. Very early SR green was different again, this was Sage Green which was a late LSWR colour and it also has a light olive appearance.

Speaking from a completely uneducated POV regarding colour theory, there is (IMO) a difference between brightness/lightness and hue. Maunsell olive green may have varied in terms of light/dark shade, but that was not what I was referring to when I commented on bluer green (vs. e.g. yellower).

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The Olive Green loses some of the yellow to weathering within two or three years, this is with modern paints and I assume the same happened with the original pigments.  The result is a darker and bluer shade. This is visible on vehicles which have had the paintwork touched up with any fresh patches noticeably yellower than the original finish even with careful tinting with black to darken the new paint.

I have been involved with SR carriage restoration for nearly 40 years including many Olive Green vehicles, you can always find original paint samples in protected locations such as door edges which have not been weathered, these spots also do not get repeated varnishing.  The different layers of paint are clear and the change in shade can be seen.  I have seen references to an official  change in the shade of Olive but I couldnt tell you where.

 

Pete

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2 hours ago, IWCR said:

The Olive Green loses some of the yellow to weathering within two or three years, this is with modern paints and I assume the same happened with the original pigments.  The result is a darker and bluer shade. This is visible on vehicles which have had the paintwork touched up with any fresh patches noticeably yellower than the original finish even with careful tinting with black to darken the new paint.

I have been involved with SR carriage restoration for nearly 40 years including many Olive Green vehicles, you can always find original paint samples in protected locations such as door edges which have not been weathered, these spots also do not get repeated varnishing.  The different layers of paint are clear and the change in shade can be seen.  I have seen references to an official  change in the shade of Olive but I couldnt tell you where.

 

Pete

Thank you, Pete. This reassures me that I can keep the Terrier (and Bachy H1) 'as is', given that they are aged.

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For SECR green there is the added complication that not all locos were repaired and painted at Ashford.  Longhedge was still around for a good many years.  In Southern days locos mostly went back to their own area for repair but engine history sheets show that wasn't always the case, especially with smaller types. Minor repairs were done at shed, and  if the loco was likely to be seen by "authority" there would possibly be some patch painting done.  Plus the IOW Terriers once sent over stayed there until redundant, at which point they were scrapped, reduced to spare parts or returned to the mainland.  

 

For a best guess at the exact spec for any engine you need the engine history card, plus a good colour photograph of both sides, which were not always the same, and preferably both pictures taken on the day in history you are modelling.

 

Otherwise it is a case of "best guess" and live with that- but please don't criticise others who come to a different conclusion.  We are talking of 50+ years since the last Terrier was withdrawn from BR service, and nationalisation was three years before I was born.  Those alive at the time of the grouping would have been too young to look closely at railway engines....

 

Les

 

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12 hours ago, LBSC123 said:

Does anyone know if it's possible to purchase the sound decoder used in these models separately from Dapol or elsewhere?

AFAIR this is 2nd time this has been asked and as first time, I reported I'd asked Rails by phone and was told it was a ZIMO sound being fitted. Check your favourite chip supplier, they should know by now what ZIMO will / will not fit. Health warning, don't take it on my word alone, give Rails a call to verify.

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On 08/10/2020 at 17:12, Roy Langridge said:

Received notification that my DCC fitted Southern Green 2644 is on the way to me.


Roy

 

Well, my DCC fitted Southern Green 2644 arrived today and looks lovely, not run it yet but so far all is good.

 

One surprise, my "**Speaker pre-fitted **" is just provided loose in the plastic bubble packaging rather than pre-fitted. Anybody else had this with theirs? Given I had, in time, planned to add sound it seems a bit odd that it is not just a quick switch of Next18 decoder.

 

Roy 

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14 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

Well, my DCC fitted Southern Green 2644 arrived today and looks lovely, not run it yet but so far all is good.

 

One surprise, my "**Speaker pre-fitted **" is just provided loose in the plastic bubble packaging rather than pre-fitted. Anybody else had this with theirs? Given I had, in time, planned to add sound it seems a bit odd that it is not just a quick switch of Next18 decoder.

 

Roy 

I think you should return it to Rails. Rails is very good about replacements and will e-mail you a reply paid label.

 

I have two of the Rails/Dapol Terriers. In the first, the speaker was loose but wired in. It was tricky to get the top back onto the chassis. In the second, 2644, the speaker is not only wired in but fixed in place, so that wiring connects body and chassis. However, the blanking plate fell out. I have just ordered a third. When it arrives, I’ll have three Hornby and three Rails/Dapol and be able to make a balanced comparison.

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3 minutes ago, No Decorum said:

I think you should return it to Rails. Rails is very good about replacements and will e-mail you a reply paid label.

 

I have two of the Rails/Dapol Terriers. In the first, the speaker was loose but wired in. It was tricky to get the top back onto the chassis. In the second, 2644, the speaker is not only wired in but fixed in place, so that wiring connects body and chassis. However, the blanking plate fell out. I have just ordered a third. When it arrives, I’ll have three Hornby and three Rails/Dapol and be able to make a balanced comparison.

 

Thanks for your reply. Assuming all runs ok when I try it later today, I am quite happy to sort it myself as I regularly rewire locos. I was just surprised to have it like this, especially given that they made a big thing about it having a pre-fitted speaker.


Roy

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Just now, Roy Langridge said:

 

Thanks for your reply. Assuming all runs ok when I try it later today, I am quite happy to sort it myself as I regularly rewire locos. I was just surprised to have it like this, especially given that they made a big thing about it having a pre-fitted speaker.


Roy

I have to admit that I don’t follow my own advice. Although I did return a Hatton’s P to Rails and received an excellent replacement, I haven’t returned either of my Terriers. Both ran rather badly. Contrary to instructions, I applied light oil to the moving parts (including a tiny drop to the motor bearings) and gear oil to the gears. It has improved both of them greatly.

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Ok, may be reassessing this one. The manual says that the speaker is wired to the DCC Socket and I know from experience, wiring to a Next18 decoder socket itself is not the easiest.

 

Before I even go lifting the body off (as I may return this one), please can anybody confirm if the speaker is wired to pads or if it is wired to the pins of the Next18 socket itself?

 

Thanks in advance,


Roy

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I have two examples of the BR 32650, one is (hopefully) to be altered to represent 32662.

Both run reasonably well although one is quite noisy.

The first one has a bowed footplate.  It rises up by 1mm in the middle which means that the cab leans backwards.

The second one had a chimney loose in the box, the front vac pipe broken off and the cab rear leaning backwards.  

I suppose I should have sent both of them back as I did with Bodiam but, like No Decorum, I decided that it was not worth the bother. 

Rodney 

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15 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

One surprise, my "**Speaker pre-fitted **" is just provided loose in the plastic bubble packaging rather than pre-fitted. Anybody else had this with theirs? Given I had, in time, planned to add sound it seems a bit odd that it is not just a quick switch of Next18 decoder.

 

I wonder if this is due to the change to the installation procedure  that was referred to in the recent email for DCC fitted examples? 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

Ok, may be reassessing this one. The manual says that the speaker is wired to the DCC Socket and I know from experience, wiring to a Next18 decoder socket itself is not the easiest.

 

Before I even go lifting the body off (as I may return this one), please can anybody confirm if the speaker is wired to pads or if it is wired to the pins of the Next18 socket itself?

 

Thanks in advance,


Roy

Let’s take a look. Below is the best picture I can manage. Taking off the blanking plate reveals that the speaker wires (the two black wires coming out of the body) are soldered to pads, not the Next18 socket. I have good short sight but I still have to use a bright light and a magnifier to see, I think, that they are labelled “SPK” and “SP1”. The bad news is that the pads are minute. If you can solder speaker wires to them, you’re a good ’un.

 

2644 Inside 3.jpg

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1 hour ago, No Decorum said:

Let’s take a look. Below is the best picture I can manage. Taking off the blanking plate reveals that the speaker wires (the two black wires coming out of the body) are soldered to pads, not the Next18 socket. I have good short sight but I still have to use a bright light and a magnifier to see, I think, that they are labelled “SPK” and “SP1”. The bad news is that the pads are minute. If you can solder speaker wires to them, you’re a good ’un.

 

2644 Inside 3.jpg

 

Thanks for that. You are right, those pads are tiny.

 

I trained as an electronics engineer and a few years ago soldering that would not have concerned me at all. Today, my dexterity is not what it was and this one will probably go back as I don't want to try to fit the speaker and then if there are any issues be told the warranty is void.

 

If they are all provided like that now with the pre-fitted speaker not pre-fitted, I may ask for a refund.

 

I note in your photo that the Motor+ wire has quite  bit of exposed core, not great with a decoder sitting just next to it - I would be inclined to put some Kapton tape across the PCB.

 

Edit: Seems to run nicely although I note that the flickering firebox LED sometimes stays on without flickering and sometimes goes off and does not seem to come back on until i turn F1 off and back on again. Very different to my Dapol B4. Will contact Rails about the speaker.

 

Roy

 

Edited by Roy Langridge
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Right - here goes, and I am not a happy bunny.

 

Spoken to Rails who inform me that Dapol took the decision to remove the pre-fitted speaker on DCC fitted Terriers as the speakers were falling out and were causing "performance" issues. Now, I am at a loss as to what performance issues could be caused by a speaker, I certainly don't suffer any on any other loco I have had with a pre-fitted speaker such as the Bachmann Baldwin.

 

I didn't go straight to sound as I like to hear the various offerings and I am, as yet, undecided whose sound to use. A simple Next18 decoder swap is easy, for me wiring the speaker to tiny pads on the PCB will be much more of a challenge.

 

So, I have been given a choice of:

  • Leaving it as it is and having having to get the speaker refitted as and when I go sound. (The speaker is provided, but having been used already in the loco and then stuck to the plastic packaging it now needs a new gasket to attach, so that will need to be sourced).
  • Reverting to a plain DCC model (no good to me as I am on DCC)
  • A refund within 14 days (my probable course of action).

I ordered this in May 2018 and to wait this long to get something that is not as described is pretty annoying. Why were not not informed of this decision and given a choice before they were despatched? I note that the Rails website still quotes the DCC Fitted models as having a speaker pre-fitted: Rail Dapol 2644. Clearly a case of what is supplied not being as described.

 

Roy

 

 

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50 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

Right - here goes, and I am not a happy bunny.

 

Spoken to Rails who inform me that Dapol took the decision to remove the pre-fitted speaker on DCC fitted Terriers as the speakers were falling out and were causing "performance" issues. Now, I am at a loss as to what performance issues could be caused by a speaker, I certainly don't suffer any on any other loco I have had with a pre-fitted speaker such as the Bachmann Baldwin.

 

I didn't go straight to sound as I like to hear the various offerings and I am, as yet, undecided whose sound to use. A simple Next18 decoder swap is easy, for me wiring the speaker to tiny pads on the PCB will be much more of a challenge.

 

So, I have been given a choice of:

  • Leaving it as it is and having having to get the speaker refitted as and when I go sound. (The speaker is provided, but having been used already in the loco and then stuck to the plastic packaging it now needs a new gasket to attach, so that will need to be sourced).
  • Reverting to a plain DCC model (no good to me as I am on DCC)
  • A refund within 14 days (my probable course of action).

I ordered this in May 2018 and to wait this long to get something that is not as described is pretty annoying. Why were not not informed of this decision and given a choice before they were despatched? I note that the Rails website still quotes the DCC Fitted models as having a speaker pre-fitted: Rail Dapol 2644. Clearly a case of what is supplied not being as described.

 

Roy

 

 

That is very odd. Like you, I have 2644 and the speaker is wired in and firmly fixed to the body. On my earlier model, the stunning little 643 in LB&SCR umber, the speaker did fall out but not until I took the body off. It took some fiddling to get it back into place but caused no other problems. After the lubrication I mentioned earlier, it runs nicely.

 

It might be the case that if you get a replacement, the speaker might be wired in – mine was. It will be interesting and, I hope, not traumatic to see what my W9 Fishbourne is like when it arrives.

 

I’ll offer a word of praise for Rails. Fishbourne is coming with a couple of other items, one of which is offered with free postage. The whole parcel is coming post free. It’s a little touch that endears a retailer to a customer.

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5 minutes ago, No Decorum said:

That is very odd. Like you, I have 2644 and the speaker is wired in and firmly fixed to the body. On my earlier model, the stunning little 643 in LB&SCR umber, the speaker did fall out but not until I took the body off. It took some fiddling to get it back into place but caused no other problems. After the lubrication I mentioned earlier, it runs nicely.

 

It might be the case that if you get a replacement, the speaker might be wired in – mine was. It will be interesting and, I hope, not traumatic to see what my W9 Fishbourne is like when it arrives.

 

I’ll offer a word of praise for Rails. Fishbourne is coming with a couple of other items, one of which is offered with free postage. The whole parcel is coming post free. It’s a little touch that endears a retailer to a customer.

 

Rails said that the DCC Fitted ones are having them removed.


Roy

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2 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

Rails said that the DCC Fitted ones are having them removed.


Roy

Duh! Sorry, I should read more carefully. Might the solution be to get a DCC ready one and fit a decoder yourself until you are ready to fit a sound decoder?

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