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Rails of Sheffield/Dapol/NRM Announce OO gauge Stroudley A1/A1X


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53 minutes ago, Legend said:

I do wonder if those that were sent for review were all inspected for faults prior to despatch . Lets face it , you would have to be spectacularly stupid to send items for review that were defective, so if it were me I'd check before despatch knowing it was going to a wider audience.  That said ,I know Jenny bought at least one by herself  . Sams was bought as a normal customer, so they would not have been aware it was for review .  It does seem there are good ones out there , and some that are not so good, but the numbers reporting back on here suggest the issues are not just the occasional defect.  A pity because if you look at Boxhill that Edwardian has posted it looks a stunning model .


To be realistic,Sam is no normal customer and no more normal is his modus operandi in testing .TBH,of you’re going to sit in judgement on a model as he does,taking no prisoners in the process,then at least allow the product the decency of properly laid and secured track...for which it was presumably designed and manufactured to hopefully exact tolerances. The claim other models didn’t bite the carpet is frankly an argument which is difficult to sustain and unfair.Sam would be IMHO credible if he tested on properly laid track on a baseboard .

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1 minute ago, Ian Hargrave said:


To be realistic,Sam is no normal customer and no more normal is his modus operandi in testing .TBH,of you’re going to sit in judgement on a model as he does,taking no prisoners in the process,then at least allow the product the decency of properly laid and secured track...for which it was presumably designed and manufactured to hopefully exact tolerances. The claim other models didn’t bite the carpet is frankly an argument which is difficult to sustain and unfair.Sam would be IMHO credible if he tested on properly laid track on a baseboard .

i do agree with some of what was said but....and he demonstrated it, all his other loco's navigated that curve fine, the loco in question failed every time. It also made it's way round every other part of his layout which was laid just as "bad".
If a manufacturer designs a loco to run only on faultlessly laid track work on a flat base board i have no issue with that, simply state it in the product information and let the customer decide (i don't think that was your point but hopefully you get what i mean).

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RMWeb Trade & Products: Where they'll moan if you tell them it's bad and they'll moan if you tell them it's good.

 

Only Rails/Dapol will know the proportion of returns - and I shouldn't think any manufacturer would ever disclose that.  So, there comes a point when people simply start overclaiming from a position of ignorance.

 

Here Rails seems to have attracted the ire of some, essentially for having the temerity to deliver a very good model and saying it would be better than its rival, which it is. People have, wrongly, in my view, traded off what they suppose is hubris on Rails part about the virtues of this model; Rails was put in a very difficult position by Hornby's spoiler launch and TV hype. Theirs is, when all's said and done, objectively the better model, albeit not perfect in my view. People need to move on from that.

 

Otherwise, it's just an unknown proportion of models with QC issues and, in that regard, I see very little to distinguish it from many releases.  Time spent on the Bachmann and Hornby sections will reveal much the same.

 

I sympathise with Jenny's frustration at the whingefest some want to indulge in. Buy the b00dy thing if you want one, Send it back if it is faulty. Just like pretty much any release. If you don't want one, why the Hell are you bothering to clog up the internet with comments about it anyway?  Or, step away from the keyboard and do something useful, like volunteer to deliver food and medicine to those shielding.  Not even Covid, it seems, can bless some of you with a sense of perspective.

 

When the plague finally stalks it's way to my door, at least I will have the consolation that I enjoyed my hobby in a positive way.

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5 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

RMWeb Trade & Products: Where they'll moan if you tell them it's bad and they'll moan if you tell them it's good.

 

Only Rails/Dapol will know the proportion of returns - and I shouldn't think any manufacturer would ever disclose that.  So, there comes a point when people simply start overclaiming from a position of ignorance.

 

 


Disagree 

 

The benefits of Forums such as this and YouTube is that people say it as they see it And it’s from the point of view of a consumer, not a magazine or industry insider.   It’s not a case of continual moaning about all products . As an example I haven’t seen any negative comments on recent releases such as Hornby Princess , Bachmann 117 to name but a few , which seem to be of good quality with little issues . On the other hand I know that Hornby A3s have ski jump issues , Hattons 66s have issues with axle covers  , dare I say it Oxford had issues with their Deans Goods and now Rails appear to have issues on build quality and running qualities On the Terrier . You can tell this by the amount of traffic on the thread. 
 

Too easy just to dismiss concerns as being from a bunch of whingers .  Of course commissioners will never disclose reject rates , so does that mean we can’t comment because we are in a position of “ignorance”  or should people relate what they see . Most comments on here are from people who have bought models and either had no issues or had to return models once or even twice . I value that feedback 

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47 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

RMWeb Trade & Products: Where they'll moan if you tell them it's bad and they'll moan if you tell them it's good.

 

Only Rails/Dapol will know the proportion of returns - and I shouldn't think any manufacturer would ever disclose that.  So, there comes a point when people simply start overclaiming from a position of ignorance.

 

Here Rails seems to have attracted the ire of some, essentially for having the temerity to deliver a very good model and saying it would be better than its rival, which it is. People have, wrongly, in my view, traded off what they suppose is hubris on Rails part about the virtues of this model; Rails was put in a very difficult position by Hornby's spoiler launch and TV hype. Theirs is, when all's said and done, objectively the better model, albeit not perfect in my view. People need to move on from that.

 

Otherwise, it's just an unknown proportion of models with QC issues and, in that regard, I see very little to distinguish it from many releases.  Time spent on the Bachmann and Hornby sections will reveal much the same.

 

I sympathise with Jenny's frustration at the whingefest some want to indulge in. Buy the b00dy thing if you want one, Send it back if it is faulty. Just like pretty much any release. If you don't want one, why the Hell are you bothering to clog up the internet with comments about it anyway?  Or, step away from the keyboard and do something useful, like volunteer to deliver food and medicine to those shielding.  Not even Covid, it seems, can bless some of you with a sense of perspective.

 

When the plague finally stalks it's way to my door, at least I will have the consolation that I enjoyed my hobby in a positive way.

 

i respect your knowledge and contribution to the forum but it's these comments that prompt so called negative remarks on this particular thread, it's not a whingefest, it's openly discussing issues with a loco, people feeding in their own view point, others first hand experience, it's not clogging up the internet, it's discussing on a forum, the right place for it.


your last paragraph is un called for, you have no idea what members do in the community, what they do for a job etc and you should not assume we don't do something useful in the community. We are discussing a loco and to bring Covid into is rather crass.

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7 minutes ago, jonnyuk said:

 

i respect your knowledge and contribution to the forum but it's these comments that prompt so called negative remarks on this particular thread, it's not a whingefest, it's openly discussing issues with a loco, people feeding in their own view point, others first hand experience, it's not clogging up the internet, it's discussing on a forum, the right place for it.


your last paragraph is un called for, you have no idea what members do in the community, what they do for a job etc and you should not assume we don't do something useful in the community. We are discussing a loco and to bring Covid into is rather crass.

 

With respect to you, and Legend, and others, with whom I have no wish to argue, I cannot help wondering how much vital information you have latterly imparted to the public on this product? Beyond a certain point, and I have noticed it with both of you and others, there is just a repetition of the fact that there are known instances of QC issues, which does nothing to elucidate matters further and which, as I tried to point out, risks overstating the gloom from a position of relative ignorance to that of Rails who, to be fair to them, appear to have (a) sent out a lot of very good Terriers, and, (b) swiftly replaced those with issues.

 

I just wonder what, if anything, now is the point of continued restatement of vague discontent.   

 

I make no assumptions about anyone here.  Only when I read their RMWeb posts can I assess whether their time is well spent.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

 

With respect to you, and Legend, and others, with whom I have no wish to argue, I cannot help wondering how much vital information you have latterly imparted to the public on this product? Beyond a certain point, and I have noticed it with both of you and others, there is just a repetition of the fact that there are known instances of QC issues, which does nothing to elucidate matters further and which, as I tried to point out, risks overstating the gloom from a position of relative ignorance to that of Rails who, to be fair to them, appear to have (a) sent out a lot of very good Terriers, and, (b) swiftly replaced those with issues.

 

I just wonder what, if anything, now is the point of continued restatement of vague discontent.   

 

I make no assumptions about anyone here.  Only when I read their RMWeb posts can I assess whether their time is well spent.

 

 

 

 


Sorry Edwardian, but this with this post I just couldn't stop thinking about pots and kettles...


Roy

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20 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:


Sorry Edwardian, but this with this post I just couldn't stop thinking about pots and kettles...


Roy

 

Then you'd be wrong. 

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3 hours ago, jonnyuk said:

i do agree with some of what was said but....and he demonstrated it, all his other loco's navigated that curve fine, the loco in question failed every time. It also made it's way round every other part of his layout which was laid just as "bad".
If a manufacturer designs a loco to run only on faultlessly laid track work on a flat base board i have no issue with that, simply state it in the product information and let the customer decide (i don't think that was your point but hopefully you get what i mean).

 
I think I can say with some degree of certainty that Dapol’s designer did not factor in carpet running on dodgy track when he designed the Rails Terrier and I assume reasonably secure running conditions as a given in a quality model.Dare I ask how many forum members run their precious models in similar fashion ?  FWIW I have two Rails Terriers neither of which has suffered a derailment.In fact the only kind of issues in that direction that occur are occasionally with a baseboard join affecting the pony truck of four coupled locos which is easily corrected. 
 

Sorry but Sam would be credible if he ran his models in far better conditions than we see from his YouTube videos.Having the nerve to sit in judgement in this manner is not to my taste I’m afraid.

 

 

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31 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

Then you'd be wrong. 

 

No, I would not be. You banged on ad-infinitum about the deficiencies of the Hornby model over-and-over in both the Hornby and Rails threads, repeatedly stating the same thing. Now you have the nerve to lecture others on the same point.


And I say that as somebody who had nailed their colours to the Rails mast.

 

Time for you to learn to take some criticism, rather than just dishing it out.

 

Roy

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21 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Mine arrived yesterday and I'm very happy with it.

 

My one arrived today and I can see no fault with the running plate (I took a ruler to it). So very happy with it so far though I have still to test it's running capabilities and to add a DCC chip. So 3 out of 4 terriers from Rails ok so far but perhaps I am lucky. Who knows...

 

I have to say that the copper-topped chimney is a real delight though I wonder how long it will stay the colour of freshly-turned/polished copper. I assume that any touch from ones fingers and it will change shade like an old penny. A thin-coat of lacquer may keep it shiny though? Just wondering...

 

Jeremy

p.s. I have still to receive my SE Terrier - Rails are still awaiting more stock I was told.

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20 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

No, I would not be. You banged on ad-infinitum about the deficiencies of the Hornby model over-and-over in both the Hornby and Rails threads, repeatedly stating the same thing. Now you have the nerve to lecture others on the same point.


And I say that as somebody who had nailed their colours to the Rails mast.

 

Time for you to learn to take some criticism, rather than just dishing it out.

 

Roy

 

You need to dis-engage, as I will. 

 

There was no need for your post. It was not necessary, or helpful, or even remotely accurate. Typically, just as smouldering issue is to die a natural death, someone walks by with a petrol can and thinks, 'hmm, shall I ...?'

 

In any case, I cannot agree that there is a sensible equation between measured and researched comments on prototype accuracy, whether or not they bore you, and the somewhat repetitious complaintfest I've just witnessed and was objecting to. Indignation and false equivalence are the stock-in-trade of keyboard warriors.  I wouldn't have thought that was your style. 

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5 minutes ago, JeremyKarl said:

My one arrived today and I can see no fault with the running plate (I took a ruler to it). So very happy with it so far though I have still to test it's running capabilities and to add a DCC chip. So 3 out of 4 terriers from Rails ok so far but perhaps I am lucky. Who knows...

 

Sounds like a similar experience to mine. 

 

 

5 minutes ago, JeremyKarl said:

I have to say that the copper-topped chimney is a real delight

 

 

It is, isn't it?  A standout quality feature for me.

 

5 minutes ago, JeremyKarl said:

though I wonder how long it will stay the colour of freshly-turned/polished copper. I assume that any touch from ones fingers and it will change shade like an old penny. A thin-coat of lacquer may keep it shiny though? Just wondering...

 

 

That's a point that hadn't crossed my mind. All I can say is that Bodiam's is still nice and shiny!

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Just now, Edwardian said:

 

You need to dis-engage, as I will. 

 

There was no need for your post. It was not necessary, or helpful, or even remotely accurate. Typically, just as smouldering issue is to die a natural death, someone walks by with a petrol can and thinks, 'hmm, shall I ...?'

 

In any case, I cannot agree that there is a sensible equation between measured and researched comments on prototype accuracy, whether or not they bore you, and the somewhat repetitious complaintfest I've just witnessed and was objecting to. Indignation and false equivalence are the stock-in-trade of keyboard warriors.  I wouldn't have thought that was your style. 

 

I will dis-engage, but equally there is no need for you to lecture others who raise complaint about issues that concern them. What is important to you and is a "reasonable compromise" may not hold for others, we all have our own values. I find your posts are often of a tone that if we do not agree with you, we are wrong.

 

For example, I see nothing from Rails acknowledging that on DCC Fitted model there is no longer a pre-fitted speaker, despite still advertising it as such.

 

Roy

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I have two Hornby Terriers, 32655 (2nd hand and detailed) and "Rolvenden"; and Rails/ Dapol "Boxhill".

 

None have any noticeable defects and all run well, although Boxhill is slightly noisier. No significant differences in slow speed running or haulage abilities (haven't spent too long studying these, as they are all good enough for my purposes). I seem to be slightly lucky with the ones I have.

 

However, although my "Boxhill" fits together well, and the running plate is completely straight, the join in the cab roof is slightly distracting, although it fits as well as it can. The copper chimney cap fits better on the Hornby one and seems better proportioned, but it's marginal.

The representation of the motion between the frames on "Boxhill" is nice, but the flickering firebox glow is a bit bright on DC, even at slowish speeds, and I could do without it (seems brighter than the B4, from memory, haven't dug that out to check it).

 

Is the Rails/Dapol version worth the extra cost for me? Probably not, especially as the Hornby ones are available for £70ish from some places (and I paid £57 and £61 for mine) but I'm no expert on Terriers. Your money, your choice.

 

IMG_3105.JPG

IMG_3106.JPG

IMG_3107.JPG

Edited by Tim Hall
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Has anyone converted one to the wider gauges yet? I would be interested to see whether that could be done while preserving the exquisitely lined-out frames of the IEG version?

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It is not a "winge-fest" when genuine issues of product quality are raised. Some of live us far enough away that the issue of return and replace is a daunting and expensive prospect and would take an extended time. No "free return label" by email for us.

 

For folk in that situation, getting a range of reactions from customers who take their hobby seriously is valuable input to the buying decision. For others to knock that same feedback is puzzling to me. Even more so when reviews were done using models supplied directly by the interested party (i.e. Rails); these can hardly be taken as an unbiased and accurate viewpoint however informative they may be.

 

Clearly there are benchmarks of product quality (beyond the acknowledged excellent cosmetic design) where the current model falls well short of the level set by others recent releases. While the level of these issues can't be quantified, the very diverse range and number of reports on here rings an alarm bell for me.

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17 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

I will dis-engage, but equally there is no need for you to lecture others who raise complaint about issues that concern them. What is important to you and is a "reasonable compromise" may not hold for others, we all have our own values. I find your posts are often of a tone that if we do not agree with you, we are wrong.

 

For example, I see nothing from Rails acknowledging that on DCC Fitted model there is no longer a pre-fitted speaker, despite still advertising it as such.

 

Roy

 

17 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

No, I would not be. You banged on ad-infinitum about the deficiencies of the Hornby model over-and-over in both the Hornby and Rails threads, repeatedly stating the same thing. Now you have the nerve to lecture others on the same point.


And I say that as somebody who had nailed their colours to the Rails mast.

 

Time for you to learn to take some criticism, rather than just dishing it out.

 

Roy

 

Roy, I think you trespass unnecessarily on the personal here, and, as I credit you with not intending to cause offence and upset, I ask you, with all respect and humility, to step back from that. 

 

To put this in context, I merely posted some pictures of my Boxhill and expressed satisfaction with it.  This was followed by a resumption of the same criticisms of the model, presumably through some notion that everyone needs to be reminded that some models were not of similar quality to mine, and a particularly bizarre comment from George Conna.  Thus, I'd expressed some sympathy with Jenny's frustration and the view that the QC complaints were getting repetitive and a tad unnecessary.

 

Enter your goodself .....  Now, I actually read posts carefully before I respond to them. What your beef with me seems to amount to is that you do not, as you say, like being lectured.  Well, forget that I was not even in dialogue with you when you turned up with a petrol can and a box of matches.  No one, including me, has denied the faults or said they do not matter.  No one needs, therefore, to feel disregarded or belittled. The point was merely to question how many times we need to hear people amplifying the same QC points before it starts getting out of proportion and sounding like a whingefest that is unfair to a rather good model.

 

 

12 hours ago, BWsTrains said:

It is not a "winge-fest" when genuine issues of product quality are raised. Some of live us far enough away that the issue of return and replace is a daunting and expensive prospect and would take an extended time. No "free return label" by email for us.

 

 

In reality, so far as I can tell, the only honest disagreement here is between those, like me, who consider that the QC issues affecting some models have been adequately ventilated and that there are some positives to focus on, and those who feel that they have more they wish to say on the subject, or simply wish to echo some complaints by others. Well, I've expressed the former view and people are free, politely, to disagree and prefer the other view, which some have.

 

What I would ask for is for people not to succumb to the temptation to be personal; attacking people's records, motives etc, which is inappropriate, and, frankly, likely to elicit a response that the offender would not care to read.  A post like BWS's is much more appropriate. I share his view that genuine issues of product quality should be raised. Evidently he and I disagree as to the extent to which it is useful to repeat those issues, but that is fair play. I suspect, that if the heat and nonsense and point scoring are taken out of the equation, people here will genuinely divide between those of one view and those of the other. 

 

With that, I'd very much hope that courtesy and respect will resume and that we can all move on. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

With that, I'd very much hope that courtesy and respect will resume and that we can all move on. 

 

 

Indeed, but perhaps you need to also respect that some people have views that are equally valid to yours, but not the same?

 

That is my "beef" as you put it. I am fed up being told what I should think of a model and accused of whinging or moaning for having found things that I do not like. Neither of which, to my mind, is courteous or respectful.

 

There I leave it...

 

Roy

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Hi All.

 

There were several of these Rails terriers that I had intended to buy, but I have been put off by the recurrent faults that seem to affect all the different batches. On the other hand, I have purchased a number of the Hornby models and apart from the first one which had its chimney leaning to one side, which was easily rectified, every one looks and runs very well. Most of the few design errors which were highlighted early on have been corrected in later issues, and allowing perhaps for slightly less detail in the more complex liveries they leave me fully satisfied.

 

My finances are limited and are going to be even more so after a visit to the dentist tomorrow for some crowns to be fitted, just what I need on the run up to Christmas. So I do not want the hassle of ordering something which I may have to send back.

 

Moving on, perhaps the only thing missing here is a response from Oliver Rails confirming their position on this and what ongoing action may be taken with respect to future model issues, that's assuming that there will be some. As I have indicated previously, the terrier is one of my favourite locos and there is a lot more fruit left on the terrier tree.

 

All the best

 

Ray

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52 minutes ago, wainwright1 said:

Hi All.

 

There were several of these Rails terriers that I had intended to buy, but I have been put off by the recurrent faults that seem to affect all the different batches. On the other hand, I have purchased a number of the Hornby models and apart from the first one which had its chimney leaning to one side, which was easily rectified, every one looks and runs very well. Most of the few design errors which were highlighted early on have been corrected in later issues, and allowing perhaps for slightly less detail in the more complex liveries they leave me fully satisfied.

 

My finances are limited and are going to be even more so after a visit to the dentist tomorrow for some crowns to be fitted, just what I need on the run up to Christmas. So I do not want the hassle of ordering something which I may have to send back.

 

Moving on, perhaps the only thing missing here is a response from Oliver Rails confirming their position on this and what ongoing action may be taken with respect to future model issues, that's assuming that there will be some. As I have indicated previously, the terrier is one of my favourite locos and there is a lot more fruit left on the terrier tree.

 

All the best

 

Ray


Why not get in touch with Oliver by pm ?  I’m not sure in fact whether that question has been asked hence if not there will be no response.Worth a try I think 

 

 

 

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On 26/10/2020 at 12:47, Edwardian said:

RMWeb Trade & Products: Where they'll moan if you tell them it's bad and they'll moan if you tell them it's good.

 

"... Rails was put in a very difficult position by Hornby's spoiler launch and TV hype. Theirs is, when all's said and done, objectively the better model, albeit not perfect in my view. People need to move on from that...."

 

 

 

A bit biased on that point - and not strictly true - I think it's been widely reported that Hornby were working on an upgrade of their model. You could equally spin this as Rails stole an existing model from the Hornby range and then cried fowl when the company defended itself.

 

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I've come here because my interest has been piqued by the NRM version in IEG or another similar, and after reading around and watching various things, it does rather seem that those defending the model are invested in some way, whether they care to admit it to themselves or not. I'm sure the models they have, are acceptable to them. But differences in opinion are allowed, and banding around terms like 'terriergate!' are unhelpful.

 

Then I look up the images Rails have themselves selected to put on their website.

 

https://images.railsofsheffield.com/product-images.axd/boxhill.IMG_2893.jpg?preset=large

https://images.railsofsheffield.com/product-images.axd/boxhill.IMG_2895.jpg?preset=large

https://images.railsofsheffield.com/product-images.axd/brighton.IMG_2899.jpg?preset=large

https://images.railsofsheffield.com/product-images.axd/brighton.IMG_2901.jpg?preset=large

 

I'm told the frames are not banana shaped. Is this just an optical illusion then? Why does either the cab look to be leaning backwards, or the front leaning forward? Why isn't the condensing pipe parallel in line and level to the tanks? What about those gaps between the superstructure and the chassis?

 

I get it, these are small locos and Rails' pictures are perhaps rather too large, and I guess if it turns up like that, then it will be 'as advertised'... and I should accept it, though realistically I'm not hurrying to buy based on those photos, sorry to say.

 

The NRM one is better, but still not flawless

http://www.locomotionmodels.com/exclusive-models/steam-locomotives/lbscr-terrier-boxhill-dcc-ready.htm

 

I don't doubt the Rails version is technically superior, it clearly is, and no doubt there are some good examples out there, but if Rails can't find a decent one to photograph, what hope has the prospective average punter got? Maybe the NRM are insisting on only good ones, so perhaps I would be better off looking there first.

 

Or perhaps I should just avoid locos with diecast chassis frames - it isn't the first time we've been here with models fitted with them.

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6 minutes ago, GWRtrainman said:

 

A bit biased on that point - and not strictly true - I think it's been widely reported that Hornby were working on an upgrade of their model. You could equally spin this as Rails stole an existing model from the Hornby range and then cried fowl when the company defended itself.

 

 
That’s a bit of a murky issue and open to a wide degree of interpretation. We simply don’t know. Widely reported usually goes with a degree of fanciful spin .The truth is unavailable for further comment :diablo_mini:

 

 

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