Great Eastern Blue

[justin1985]

So, I'm well aware that there is unlikely to be a "correct" answer to this, but I'm starting to think about the locos that I need to finish off to run on the Long Melford 2mmFS layout that I have taken on. 

 

I painted a J94 shunter which I already had in the Phoenix Precision GER blue enamel to masquerade as a generic industrial, but I'm shocked just how dark it is. I seem to remember hearing that this colour was matched to the NRM locomotives. Which themselves seem exceptionally dark, and not much like the contemporary descriptions I've read of the livery, or the early coloured postcards etc I've seen. 

 

Nigel Digby's new Pre Grouping Liveries book only covers the western region, but it does talk about GER blue in the discussion of Edwardian painting techniques. The technique was described as very pale grey primer, followed by multiple coats of paint made using only pure ultramarine pigment, followed by multiple coats of varnish. I'm sure the varnish would darken the colour, and yellow, but this does still sound like a MUCH brighter colour than the NRM and Phoenix versions.

 

So as a test piece I've painted some plasticard tube (to approximate a 2mm scale boiler) with white primer, and three widely available model enamels that I found "match" some printed illustrations of GER livery, in addition to the Phoenix colour. The two central samples are gloss, the two outer ones satin.

 

 

Any thoughts? 

 

Justin

[Regularity]

Apply VW Marine blue over grey primer.

 

That’s all you need.

[MarcD]

Interesting subject as its not only the size of the model that is scalable the tone of the paint is as well. This is because the amount of photons bouncing back at the eye is greater the larger the object. So they may well have used the GER loco in the NRM but the paint colour would have to be lighter the smalle the model. So even paint for 7mm will look dark for 2mm.

Marc

[Edwardian]

Not just the effect of scale, for which I suspect Precision Paints are not catering adequately here, but lighting conditions radically change the perception of colour.  So, as you note, there will never be one right answer.

 

I'd ask myself this, though; "if I used the correct, but very dark, Precision paints shade, would my model's colour end up looking like the picture below, within the range of normal lighting conditions on my layout?"

 

I suspect the answer would prove to be "no, it would generally look very much darker"

 

 

[justin1985]

Thanks all, some really helpful thoughts and suggestions here.

 

Apply VW Marine blue over grey primer.

That’s all you need.

 

Interesting - I'd not seen that recommendation before! Googling seems to bring up quite a range of colours (or at least heavily polished cars in very different lights), and the Halfords product page just has a generic image of a can. Where would you say that colour sits on the range of light to dark shades I'd looked at before? 

 

Part of the problem, as James said, is that what might be correct on a full size loco won't look correct on a 7mm scale model, and what looks correct on a 7mm scale model might not look correct on a 2mm scale model. 

 

Not just the effect of scale, for which I suspect Precision Paints are not catering adequately here, but lighting conditions radically change the perception of colour.  So, as you note, there will never be one right answer.

 

I'd ask myself this, though; "if I used the correct, but very dark, Precision paints shade, would my model's colour end up looking like the picture below, within the range of normal lighting conditions on my layout?"

 

I suspect the answer would prove to be "no, it would generally look very much darker"

 

Have the NNR\N&GN Society said anything about the paint that they used? I know loco restorers can have just as much of a challenge as modellers in finding the "right" colour. 

 

Lighting conditions are a very tricky one - I deliberately took that photo on my workbench under a combination of fluorescent and LED lighting. I'm sure the result is very different to daylight, but when is my layout, which lives in a garage (well lit with flourescent light), and one day might go to a show (odds are poorly lit with fluorescent or halogen light), ever going to be seen in bright daylight?

 

I actually took the sample tube along to Ally Pally and asked one or two people's opinions, and the consensus seemed to be around the sample to the furthest right, which is Revell Lufthansa Blue. But under the lighting at my bench, I'm kind of feeling that is still a little dark, and the second from the right, Revell Ultramarine, which seemed a bit bright to start with, might actually be closer.

 

But I guess I should also consider the visual effect once set against the black and black\red footplate, smokebox, lining etc ...

 

Justin

[GeoS]

Last year at an exhibition I asked Precision Paints if they had a GER blue. The answer given was a choice of two...the one they had always sold as such, and a lighter one as recently suggested by the Great Eastern Society to be more accurate following some new research. From where I am now I cannot give the reference for the paint but asking PP hopefully will. I actually thought the new one to be rather bright, but of course there are ways of dealing with this.

Geo

Norfolk

[justin1985]

Last year at an exhibition I asked Precision Paints if they had a GER blue. The answer given was a choice of two...the one they had always sold as such, and a lighter one as recently suggested by the Great Eastern Society to be more accurate following some new research. From where I am now I cannot give the reference for the paint but asking PP hopefully will. I actually thought the new one to be rather bright, but of course there are ways of dealing with this.

Geo

Norfolk

 

Interesting! I was hoping to see Phoenix at Ally Pally, but alas they weren't there. The tin of "GER Blue" I bought from them before was quite a few years ago now. 

 

Looking at their website, they do actually give a good explanation about the NRM locos and their new ultramarine match. The swatches on the website look quite a way out though - the original P500 Royal Blue looks almost forget-me-not, whereas the new P507 is definitely ultramarine (on my screen). 

 

I'll try and get a can of the VW colour and a tin of the new Phoenix colour to test now, I think.

 

Cheers

Justin

[Jol Wilkinson]

Isn't one of the issues the variability of colours when viewed on pc screens, etc. Add to that people's poor colour memory and it is difficult for anyone to say what the proper colour would be.

[Gareth Collier]

Hi,

I had a similar dilemma when it came to painting my 'N' gauge M15. I settled for Tamiya Royal Blue acrylic X-3. Results shown below:

 

[justin1985]

That is an exquisite model Gareth! I've always liked the 2-4-2 types - there is something emphatically and delightfully old fashioned about them, while still appearing purposeful rather than flimsy, if you know what I mean?

 

I've currently got some part finished J15s, as well as etches for some Buckjumpers and a K9 0-4-2 (all David Eveleigh etches), and an almost complete N7 scratch built from tinplate to exact 1:152 that I picked up second hand. Very tempted to try and put a design together for one of the Gobblers before I've worked through all of those though!

 

You reminded me that I picked up some of the small Tamiya spray cans when ModelZone were closing down a few years ago, one of which is a dark blue. I'll check if it might be the Royal Blue you've used when I get home tonight.

 

Justin

[Edwardian]

Isn't one of the issues the variability of colours when viewed on pc screens, etc. Add to that people's poor colour memory and it is difficult for anyone to say what the proper colour would be.

 

True, though I still say your locos are black.

 

 

Hi,

I had a similar dilemma when it came to painting my 'N' gauge M15. I settled for Tamiya Royal Blue acrylic X-3. Results shown below:

 

That is a beautiful model, and a fully persuasive rendering of GE ultramarine.

[Caley Jim]

Isn't one of the issues the variability of colours when viewed on pc screens, etc. Add to that people's poor colour memory and it is difficult for anyone to say what the proper colour would be.

And here was me thinking that Caledonian Blue was the only one over which there was a debate.    What Jol says is perfectly correct.  Add into that the effect of aging on the varnishes of the day and the smoke filled and sulfurous atmosphere that locos worked in and the colour of a newly painted loco might be quite different to that of one which hadn't seen the 'shops' for a few years.  Blue was a rather unstable colour in those days as I recall and faded over time.

 

Jim

[Joseph_Pestell]

You don't have to go back that far. BR corporate image blue faded dreadfully, especially after contact with carriage washers.

 

But back to the original question. I would say the second from the right is the best. But it's not just about tone but also the level of gloss. On a model, you don't really want anything more than an eggshell finish.

[Edwardian]

You don't have to go back that far. BR corporate image blue faded dreadfully, especially after contact with carriage washers.

 

But back to the original question. I would say the second from the right is the best. But it's not just about tone but also the level of gloss. On a model, you don't really want anything more than an eggshell finish.

 

Goodness; lighting conditions, film-type and age, batches of paint, chemical reactions, colour perception and memory, dirt, bleaching and fading, varnish type, varnish darkening, etc, etc, etc.  You have to go with what looks right to you in your chosen scale under your usual layout lighting conditions and leave it at that.

 

A good point about the finish.

 

At Locomotion recently I inspected some of the National Collection exclusives.  Apart from the special edition Oxford Dean Goods, which is an abortion in any case, there were two modern 4-6-0s, in black and Brunswick Green. All three models featured a gloss finish.  They were all quite ghastly and toy-like, because a high-gloss prototype simply does not equate to a high gloss finish on a small-scale model.

 

No doubt something to do with refraction, but it had the same disconcerting effect and wrongness as crude film effects where water is used with models. Water doesn't scale down, and neither does high gloss finish.

Edited March 27, 2018 by Edwardian

[PaulG]

The GERS website states

 

The actual blue colour used was a pure ultramarine blue - a tin of which is in the GERS Collection. When painted over the French grey undercoat and varnished this gave a very deep, rich blue. The two preserved GER locomotives 87 and 490 were painted in a rather muddy shade, and thus do not give a true representation of the finished effect.

 

Paul

[justin1985]

The GERS website states

The actual blue colour used was a pure ultramarine blue - a tin of which is in the GERS Collection. When painted over the French grey undercoat and varnished this gave a very deep, rich blue.

Which can mean a great many different things, hence experimenting!

 

 

At Locomotion recently I inspected some of the National Collection exclusives.  Apart from the special edition Oxford Dean Goods, which is an abortion in any case, there were two modern 4-6-0s, in black and Brunswick Green. All three models featured a gloss finish.  They were all quite ghastly and toy-like, because a high-gloss prototype simply does not equate to a high gloss finish on a small-scale model.

 

I get the impression that the idea that pre-grouping liveries should be high gloss comes from the fact that most pre-group locos that people see are either preserved line examples, highly polished for the public, or 7mm scale models, which until recently invariably tended to be finished as mirror gloss display case type models. Therefore there is an expectation that when a 4mm model is produced, it should look like the models people are used to seeing!

 

J

[Gareth Collier]

I get the impression that the idea that pre-grouping liveries should be high gloss comes from the fact that most pre-group locos that people see are either preserved line examples, highly polished for the public, or 7mm scale models, which until recently invariably tended to be finished as mirror gloss display case type models. Therefore there is an expectation that when a 4mm model is produced, it should look like the models people are used to seeing!

 

Have to agree. I predominately model the LBSCR and have many reference photos and rather than a high gloss you'd be amazed how many haven't even got any paint remaining where the heat of the firebox has caused the paint to blister and flake off.

[robert17649]

this is really difficult. As a watercolourist and I suppose part time artist I have found that there are  almost as many Ultrmarines as there are manufacturers. As a modeller I think that the right colour is the one that you think looks right(Not at alll helpful really) bu basically my feeling is that if you think it looks about right it probably is. MY Morris 1000 was Halfords ultramarine and my boat was Dulux French blue and they both looked about right!

I use Halfords grey primer for my GER locos. with humbrol dirty black  for the other bits.Its less of a problem as is brown or  crimson lake for the coaches. no lining problems and big yellow numbers. It's still GER.

Edited March 27, 2018 by robert17649

[EHertsGER]

Now here’s a question to stir things up a bit; if I was to attempt to match the Precision Paints Ultramarine (P507 Ultramarine) in the course of producing a decal, what would be the closest PMS # ?

 

At the risk of pre-empting things, I am currently looking toward #2757

 

I look forward to the comments!

 

best,

Marcus

Edited March 1, 2021 by EHertsGER