Brixton Hill tram depot and its Trams

[Philou]

Funny that you should mention working trolleybuses as I seem to have acquired a couple of Cardiff trolleybuses (my home town) made by the Original Omnibus Co. (Corgi?) AND a couple of pairs of booms from PC Models (I think) ready for 'improving' the basic model and have a static system for my railway model. I did see a trolleybus system (possibly it was Walford Arches) that was very good. There was one that had the Faller system as the basic driving force and the overhead laid to suit - that was good save for the starting and stopping that was a bit - shall we say - abrupt.

 

Unfortunately my railway model will now be based on a real town that had neither trams nor trolleybuses - so no electric traction for me .

 

I'm glad the link was of use to you. They do seem to indicate that it is suitable for RTR railway stock (docksides and the such). They say, if I recall correctly, is that it is the flanges that run in the groove rather than the wheels on the rail itself. I thought it was a rather neat way of achieving the look rather than having overscale check rails. I suspect that the setts and paviors proposed are for a 'quick-fix' rather than something that is modelled prototypically. Carving your own in plaster, though time consuming, is probably rather more satisfying.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

Edited February 25, 2019 by Philou

[rue_d_etropal]

Quote

They do seem to indicate that it is suitable for RTR railway stock (docksides and the such)

Might look good, but most tram track I looked at was too sharp a radius, which is why I developed my 3D printed inset track system. I then added sharper curves and points for tram modellers(Colin has used it).

[coline33]

Thanks, Philip, for mentioning the USA firm whose products are reviewed from time to time in the T&LRS magazine "Tramfare".   Yes they are expensive and that is why for both cost and ease of construction I went for Recreation21 for my simple uncomplicated junction layout designs!!!   East Lancs Modelling Supplies  (see their website) do import various model tramway items from time to time but I cannot recall them selling Proto87 track. 

 

Nice to hear from Dave - I still have my 2-WIM pieces in their early stages of construction which ceased when "WC" had to move to another house and be stowed away.

 

Ray, the LCC/LPTB/LTE Deptford Wharf was situated in Greenwich High Road on the other side of the Creek to Convoys Wharf which I knew very well in the 1960s/70s as one of my close PLA colleagues left to become its Managing Director and redevelop it into a then modern cargo handling facility.   When I use the DLR over that section of Deptford Creek, I look down on its redeveloped former LTE site.   The Grove Street line as you say was always 'mainline property'!   Just for the record there was a rail connection into Surrey Commercial Docks but only as a siding which in my days there was never used and certainly not part of the PLA's railway operations.

[thirty2a]

Walford arches was a great layout i think I still i have the railway modeller article.

I'm currently thinking about remodelling the track to an internal traverser just to keep the overall  model to its current dimensions.

i am thinking about location though ...

[coline33]

Yes, quite understandable to have the traverser within to keep the layout in a manageable space.   The only reason I looked to having it outside the back wall was to increase storage space within.   Also if I did not want to have a working traverser, a dummy one would not stand-out so much!!!   When I suggested Brixton Hill as a prototype for John Howe to do a tram depot kit for a smaller depot to Camberwell, I had also in mind a freelance single road entrance depot for OLE and/or conduit.   It was the architecture that was so impressive and John worked from a very colourful official drawing I had of the frontage.   The interior walls came from many photos I had from within in tram days plus his taken as a bus garage at the time of the kit production.   So hence I was happy to develop a layout with a single conduit track entry/exit from a middle of the road single track on R N Road with the only paved point being laid to permit the terminating service 90 car not to block the depot entrance track.    The other end of my R N Road is a two road fiddle yard of non paved track hidden by the railway over-bridge.

 

At least you seem to have straighten out the "Brixton Hill" site so you have the traverser space immediately inside the entrance unless you wanted to locate towards the rear as with that built into the extension of Finchley depot to provide Feltham car maintenance bays at the rear wall.   If you do, do not forget that the Feltham end overhangs are greater than any other London car if you are putting in roof stantions.

[thirty2a]

Lots to think about ! I'm thinking of cutting the traverser pit  near the entrance could be a feature as the layout is basically the depot.

Might be manual for a while ...

 

[coline33]

Yes, if the traverser is placed at the entrance end then LCC/LT practice had bays that end to hold at least one car on each road off it, back to the front wall.   This allowed cars requiring more than routine maintenance attention, not to block the operational roads.   The fitters attended cars for daily brake checking as they stood over the pits - something that Brixton Hill itself did not have!   So pits would be an added feature which would be helped in construction as you raise the floor upwards to accommodate a traverser.   Looks as though you are going to have to have a false basement!

[thirty2a]

Yes I was thinking about the pits actually looks like I will be busy. Going to do some reading and then cut in the traverser and pits 

[coline33]

One of the aspects of conduit depot tracks is the location of the conduit!!!   From a centre conduit on entry it would switch to the side of one of the running rails to go on to the traverser.   Then the traverser's conduit would be in line with the side conduits of the pit lines.   Although the LCC was very wise in switching to the free-running plough carrier system one must remember 600 volt DC is dangerous in a pit situation so the rails had to be covered at the sides as well.   If you want any help in this regard do not hesitate to ask and I will sort out views for you.   All the best, Colin.

 

[thirty2a]

I have quite a few LT tram books so que excuse for reading / research

Edited March 5, 2019 by thirty2a

[dasatcopthorne]

On 25/02/2019 at 20:37, wainwright1 said:

Aah Hello Dave, or should I say Mr Southern Electric.

I remember seeing your models and layouts long before there were ready to run models available, apart from the Hornby Dublo 2 EPB and the Triang 2 NON.

 

Colin.

I see your reference to Deptford Wharf.

That is very interesting, as when our club was set up more than 30 years ago, we looked at this prototype as a possible layout and collected a number maps and photographs.

We visited the site quite a few times and photographed the remaining details. We also tracked down several people who had worked there. I calculated that in 4mm the bulk of the track plan would probably fit on six base boards, with a 12 foot river frontage and and 8 foot depth tapering back to the incoming tracks. There would have been a separate extension for the Grove Street Tramway down to the Corporation of London Foreign Cattle Market, later Army Stores Depot, later still Convoys Wharf. Interestingly, between the wharf and the cattle market, there was the Royal Victualling Yard, later Royal Victoria Yard, which had an internal metre gauge system and the cattle market had its own 18 inch system and both also had connections to the standard gauge at various times. The street tramway was originally operated with horse power, then petrol loco and finally steam and the access from the main yard was altered on two occasions.

We did not proceed with the project as operationally it had very limited potential due to the fact loco operated trains only worked up to Grove Street, where there were multiple level crossings with very long gates and from then on all the movements were done using cables and hydraulic capstans. The riverside part of the yard also had around 15 wagon tables and a lot of the tracks turned through roughly 90 degrees inside the yard which would have created lots of difficult angled track joints across the baseboard joints.

This was a railway owned wharf originally L.B. & S.C.R., rather than part of the London Docks, but I do not recall ever seeing any reference to London Transport Tramways having a presence there. Perhaps you can enlighten us.

 

I agree with you about the parking situation for the Beckenham and West Wickham show.  We normally get there early, park up and go into their cafe to get a cup of tea and bacon roll before the show opens.

 

I am also dabbling a bit with 009 and hoping to combine this with 00 on a military themed layout, but currently have more than enough to do on Hawkhurst, Crystal Palace High Level and St Mellion to keep me busy for the moment. I am also tinkering with working model buses and trying source suitable components at sensible prices to make this viable. Faller prices are ridiculous.

 

All the best

 

Ray

 

It honestly always surprises me when someone remembers my EMUs.

 

Still have them all.

 

Thanks.

[wainwright1]

Hello Colin, Tony, Dave etc.

 

Just catching up. Had a bit of trouble with an infection in my big toe. Now seems under control and on the mend.

 

Colin.

Been looking at the old OS map for Greenwich 1913 trying to find your Deptford Wharf Depot.

On the west bank of Deptford Creek it shows an engineering works (non specific). Next to this is shown Stowage Wharf. Now My father worked at Deptford Power Station as a turbine operator and my uncle Charlie also worked there on the outside unloading coal from the barges. This area was called 'The Stowage.' Wikipedia indicates that the power station opened 1899 which must be this site, so I wonder why it is not identified as such on the map ?

On the east side of the Creek is a shown a large building, but no description. The main road over here is Creek Road over which there were tram tracks heading to Greenwich on routes 68/70. Greenwich High Road is further east and runs up north east from Deptford Broadway. I wonder if you meant that the tramway depot was down at the Broadway end of the Creek ? Unfortunately I do not have a copy of the OS map 105 covering the Broadway which might be more revealing. There were tram lines up here for routes 36/38/40.

 

Did you see the programme about Hornby on BBC4 last night. I found it quite interesting with lots of my Double 0 Gauge Association colleagues in it. I was interviewed and filmed for about half an hour, though they did not show me in it. Might be keeping that for the x rated version or 'It will be alright on the night.' The second episode next week should be good with a confrontation between Simon Kohler and two other manufacturers.

 

I keep my eyes open for items that would be useful for motorising buses and other road vehicles. Unfortunately, the Faller steering units seem to be the only viable ones available, but tend to be rather expensive. I did come across another brand that did kits of parts for steering units which went up in half millimetre increments, but that was from a firm in Poland and they did not provide the wheels.  I did not fancy doing financial deals with Poland and subsequently mislaid the link I had. I have also looked at manufacturing some steering units myself, particularly for 8ft wide vehicles which the Faller units cannot really stretch to. I collected a number of brass components to make them from, but they have to be quite precise and it was difficult to get all the items as accurate as was necessary for the job. I will return to that later. (I have seen it done by other people, including a Corgi 1:50th scale Bedford OB coach).

 

I have just received an email confirming an invitation to exhibit at the London Transport Museum Family Fun Weekend at their Acton Works site on 13th and 14th July. So better get on with our St Mellion layout.

 

All the best

 

Ray

[coline33]

Many thanks, Ray, hope your toe was not the result of alcohol - that would be even more painful!!!  LCC/LPTB/LTE Deptford Wharf had a trailing junction in Greenwich High Road off the 36/38/40 services.   The Wharf was next to Merryweather's factory on the east side of the Creek.   On the other side of that road towards the Broadway was in tram days the Miller Hospital.   Official LT history maintains that car 1951 was the last to run in London on 5.7.1952 when in fact it was not the last car from Woolwich to New Cross that night.   The actual last car did not arrive at NX until early the following morning - thanks to the crowds in Greenwich and particularly the nurses of the Miller Hospital showing their gratitude to the crew.   I must admit that we do not watch BBC4 as our evenings are spent catching up on programmes on other channels that clash!

 

Trust all goes well for Acton.   It seems a decade or so since "West Croydon" was exhibited there certainly before English Heritage got involved with LTM and removed from covent Garden the two very trams that most Londoners remember using and replacing them with boats and bikes - I have had nothing to do with LTM since as the Feltham got damaged in the move to Acton with its limited public access.   I had asked that once on wheels it go via Crich for a full inspection (funded by enthusiasts) and restored to working condition so that it could be loaned out to advertise LTM around the UK but EH then had deaf ears   Glad your toe is on the mend, Colin.

   

[wainwright1]

Hi Colin.

 

No it was not due to gout, the A & E doctor confirmed that. It is feeling a lot better, though still quite red.

 

The location of the Deptford depot is now a little clearer.

I remember the Merryweather Factory, a place where they built many fire engines and also some railway locomotives. Narrow gauge if I remember correctly and mostly for export ? The buildings later became an industrial estate, but more recently were demolished.  So that piece of history has now been lost. I also remember the Miller Hospital. I think that the frontage of that was retained after it closed, but cannot remember if that is still standing ? The Greenwich Narrow Gauge Club used to have their exhibitions just up the road at the old town hall, West Greenwich House, until they started Expo Narrow Gauge at the White Oaks Centre. I think that their clubroom is still there though.

 

I will have to get a copy of O/S sheet 105 next time I go to the Ian Allan shop as they stock the Godfrey Edition reprints. I can then study the details for this depot.

 

You might be interested to know that the Feltham tram is not owned by the London Transport Museum. It was purchased privately by a small group of enthusiasts including the late Peter Atkinson and Len Field. While the tram was at Covent Garden it was up on blocks and on special occasions visitors were allowed to get up on the tram and drive it on relatively low power, bearing in mind it still had the original wiring !. Obviously being on blocks it did not go anywhere. This was supervised by Peter and I and other members of the RT 1702 Bus Preservation Group used to assist him. Unfortunately, after Peter had a stroke this practice ceased and eventually the tram was moved to Acton with most of the other tram related items. Len field is still around in his mid eighties and the treasurer of the bus group. He also used to go up to Crich in its early days on his Lambretta and assist on various projects. I think that the Feltham is on indefinite loan, but do not know what the terms of the loan were. Could be the reason why they would not let it out

Incidentally, I have had a ride on the other Feltham car, the 'Cissie' centre entrance one up at Crich 2-3 years ago, which was quite interesting.

 

I have lost count of the number of people who say that they have got a ticket for the last tram in London. I think that they must have printed thousands of them. Bye the way, the last tram ran 15 days before I was born.

 

Happy days

 

Ray

[coline33]

Yes, Ray, "2099" (as I know it) is on indefinite loan from the Feltham Fund.   I was a member of the Tramways Sub-Committee of the BTC Clapham overseeing the trams in the years prior to its closure and move to Syon Park.   I loved driving the car on its blocks and my elder daughter, then 3 and 4, loved opening the front exit door every time I stopped - yes we had the compressor going for the air braking as well.   In trying to find a new home for the London items at Clapham, I had powers to operate all non-underground modes inserted in Lea Valley Regional Park Bill should funds be found to build a purpose built operational museum alongside the then new Northumberland Park Victoria Line depot to provide the DC current.   I had planned a single tram line from opposite Northumberland Park station to the museum from whence bus and trolleybus services could service within the Park.   Just think how this would have helped in 2012!!!   In the end no one then could afford a proper museum not even in Crystal Palace goods yard which BR offered.   Interestingly, the LTM director before EH asked me to find a way to lay a tramway between the Acton Museum depot and Acton Tram Depot which Livington would have taken over for the West London Tram but he soon dropped the idea when I pointed out the difficulties I had with the Northumberland Park line!   Instead he went for the miniature railway within the site!   By the way I have the LPTB Feltham driving instructions which shows that 2099 in the thirties was equipped differently to the other production Felthams.   I have a suspicion that it was changed when Vic Matterface was LPTB Rolling Stock Engineer (Trams) and by coincidence when he visited Charlton CRD in 1949 then as Leeds's Acting General Manager (Trams), 2099 was in for overhaul and he immediately asked for a loan of it!!!   He got it and the rest is history.

 

"CissiE" is a beautiful car and only a "Feltham" by location of its build as it was known as "Experimental Car No.3".   "CissiE" is the name given by the Finchley depot staff with the letters CE being for Central Entrance.   Built as a 70 seat + 30 standing crowd shifter on MET service 40 when it was the onward extension of the Northern Line from Golders Green.   BR Engineering did a marvelous job in restoring the running gear.   I spent an evening in 2002 with its dedicated driver back and forth - the quietness of it clearly was that which Vic Matterface and CRD had restored in 2085 about 1946 when 55 Broadway banned any further Felthams from having such a through 'war damage' complete overhaul - as people might oppose continuing tram conversion.   The Streatham depot staff named 2085 "The Queen of Telford" which was painted on the cab ceilings and of course this car now resides in the USA.   On my visit to Kennebunkport in the 1990s, I estimated return to UK and restoration to be close to a million pounds.   It has suffered through dismantling work to restore ceasing just leaving a complete mess - I could not work out whether dismantled pipework came from it or the New York subway cars it was between.   Very sad. 

 

I attach views of the templates for modelling the entrance tracks to Deptford Wharf in 'Recreation21', the present state of my RNR layout when Feltham 2073 tested the electrics (the depot front is laying on the track) and another of what still exists to whet David S's memories!   Enjoy, Colin.  

[wainwright1]

Hi Colin.

That is very interesting, it is a pity that one of those schemes did not come off. I assume that your mention of Crystal Palace Goods Yard refers to the low level station ? 

I thought that the site there was a bit land locked so would have made it difficult. By the way, I do remember that there was a scheme proposed for a railway heritage centre there in the 1980's. I think that I still have a copy of the prospectus for it. That came to nothing as well.

You probably know that we have built a layout of Crystal Palace High Level Station which did not have a goods yard.

See southwarkmrc.wordpress.com. 

 

I nipped up to the Ian Allan shop, but they only had a copy of the 1894 105 O/S sheet rather than the 1914 one. This does however show the horse tramways and a depot coming off Greenwich High Road, presumably the precursor of your stores depot.

 

The piece of layout looks very interesting, so maybe this dialog might stimulate you towards a spurt of new modelling. I have laid some paving on a couple of layouts and have found that once you have laid a base of Plasticard and cut all your slabs from 10 thou sheet to a standard size, removed the cutting burrs and slightly bevelled the edges, you can lay the paving quite quickly in the usual alternate courses which once trimmed, fitted with a kerb and painted look very good. One of our former members, Little Jim, now longer with us, laid all the paving on Crystal Palace in this way, not to mention all the planking on the platforms and without recourse to a straight jacket ! One of the things I always thought about tram points and junctions is that the electrics could get quite complicated especially when the prospect of a common return loop exists, not to mention cross overs in the same proximity. Using overhead pick up would alleviate a lot of this, but getting trolley poles to work properly can also cause problems  Mind you, I tend to work out track circuits simply colour coded on paper, then do the wiring stage by stage testing each section until it is complete.

 

Judging by your comments, I expect that you have come across Peter and Len from the Feltham group at one time or another.

 

Good modelling

 

Ray

 

 

[Red Devil]

Few things that may be relevant to this thread....

Walford Arches still exists and is in the care of the Yorks area MBF, it needs a lot of work to get it back fully operational (that may happen at some stage but don't hold your breath.)

 

It was last seen at the MBF AGM where we managed to get something moving 'just'!

 

Electric Avenue or whatever it's called now by Proto87 stores is a nice product to look at etc, however if you're not going to use 'P' wheelsets it will involve flange running, I tried it and whilst it looks good I couldn't get it to operate reliably. ELMTS did have stock of some bits but it's pretty much order direct only now.

 

Personally I went a different way for grooved rail and fabricated my own as it works better  for me,  pic below....

 

[wainwright1]

Hi Red Devil.

 

Pleased to hear that Walford Arches still exists. I saw it at several exhibitions and the trolleybuses performed very well. I had heard that it had a problem with the wire in the road rusting to the point that there was not enough iron left for the magnets to follow. I have been looking for a better quality wire, ideally a galvanised or plastic coated one to eliminate or reduce the rusting problem.

 

Your cobble stones appear to be hand carved, the same as mine. I use Tetrion which can be mixed so it dries quite hard so that when you carve it the effect is quite crisp, but it also crumbles a little giving a worn finish without the plaster being too soft. Once the plaster has been given a good coat of enamel paint it increases its strength and reduces the tendency to chip.

Now the $64,000 question, how did you produce your grooved rail which looks very good ?

 

All the best

 

Ray

[thirty2a]

Good evening all great to read your posts above hopefully I can add some modelling over the weekend 

[coline33]

Thanks, Red Devil.   Yes, it looks superb but you encountered the same problems in running as I did many decades ago.   At that time, I investigated doing P4 and having successfully converted and detailed a Hornby Class 29 diesel that ran beautifully on Mike Tribe's P4 layout when he lived near me.   I had never been happy with the end look of a Feltham on 16.5mm. track.   So I made an unmotored pair of bogies for 18.83mm. and set PC Models rail within a cardboard road surface.   Just in pushing the car along it was OK on the straights!   I deliberately set the curved section so I could alter it but the groove was not deep enough!!!   I came to the conclusion that to perfect the track and motorise the bogies was going to take more time than I had and frustration would set in!   Apart from the 'plaster' method with rail soldered on copper clad, I have used Hamo and Rivarossi track finally only to use the former as an overhead test line.   So far I have not encountered any undue problem with 'Recreation21' for what I want and it just has a good looking sett finish for London conduit track and gives a perfect end view to my 'four-footers' on the overhead.   But then it is the cars themselves in which I am more interested than the track.

 

Ray, the only horse tram depot in Greenwich itself was known as Hoskins Street which is the road alongside the Tramways Generating Station (still existant).   When the LCC took over this, Rye Lane and Bowles Road for electricification, all were equipped with over-running trollers with cables that plugged into the then new electric cars which were conduit only using 'long lead' ploughs that could be lifted in and out within the lower saloon.   Hoskins Street was  absorbed into the power station site, Rye Lane went from works to permanent way with the opening of CRD and Bowles Road from depot to permanent way/road vehicle garage.    The Deptford Wharf site appears to have been bought after 1900 by LCC specifically for transferring materials from barge and storing permanent way items.   Somewhere I did have a plan of the Wharf so when it surfaces I will send it.   Trust this helps.   Colin.   

[dasatcopthorne]

16 hours ago, coline33 said:

Yes, Ray, "2099" (as I know it) is on indefinite loan from the Feltham Fund.   I was a member of the Tramways Sub-Committee of the BTC Clapham overseeing the trams in the years prior to its closure and move to Syon Park.   I loved driving the car on its blocks and my elder daughter, then 3 and 4, loved opening the front exit door every time I stopped - yes we had the compressor going for the air braking as well.   In trying to find a new home for the London items at Clapham, I had powers to operate all non-underground modes inserted in Lea Valley Regional Park Bill should funds be found to build a purpose built operational museum alongside the then new Northumberland Park Victoria Line depot to provide the DC current.   I had planned a single tram line from opposite Northumberland Park station to the museum from whence bus and trolleybus services could service within the Park.   Just think how this would have helped in 2012!!!   In the end no one then could afford a proper museum not even in Crystal Palace goods yard which BR offered.   Interestingly, the LTM director before EH asked me to find a way to lay a tramway between the Acton Museum depot and Acton Tram Depot which Livington would have taken over for the West London Tram but he soon dropped the idea when I pointed out the difficulties I had with the Northumberland Park line!   Instead he went for the miniature railway within the site!   By the way I have the LPTB Feltham driving instructions which shows that 2099 in the thirties was equipped differently to the other production Felthams.   I have a suspicion that it was changed when Vic Matterface was LPTB Rolling Stock Engineer (Trams) and by coincidence when he visited Charlton CRD in 1949 then as Leeds's Acting General Manager (Trams), 2099 was in for overhaul and he immediately asked for a loan of it!!!   He got it and the rest is history.

 

"CissiE" is a beautiful car and only a "Feltham" by location of its build as it was known as "Experimental Car No.3".   "CissiE" is the name given by the Finchley depot staff with the letters CE being for Central Entrance.   Built as a 70 seat + 30 standing crowd shifter on MET service 40 when it was the onward extension of the Northern Line from Golders Green.   BR Engineering did a marvelous job in restoring the running gear.   I spent an evening in 2002 with its dedicated driver back and forth - the quietness of it clearly was that which Vic Matterface and CRD had restored in 2085 about 1946 when 55 Broadway banned any further Felthams from having such a through 'war damage' complete overhaul - as people might oppose continuing tram conversion.   The Streatham depot staff named 2085 "The Queen of Telford" which was painted on the cab ceilings and of course this car now resides in the USA.   On my visit to Kennebunkport in the 1990s, I estimated return to UK and restoration to be close to a million pounds.   It has suffered through dismantling work to restore ceasing just leaving a complete mess - I could not work out whether dismantled pipework came from it or the New York subway cars it was between.   Very sad. 

 

I attach views of the templates for modelling the entrance tracks to Deptford Wharf in 'Recreation21', the present state of my RNR layout when Feltham 2073 tested the electrics (the depot front is laying on the track) and another of what still exists to whet David S's memories!   Enjoy, Colin.  

 

Haha. The last one is a bit of my old layout that once occupied a spare bedroom where I lived in Morden. Still got a tiny bit in the loft.

 

This is well before I discovered how to easily built EMUs.

 

Dave

 

[thirty2a]

A few images from Acton taken a few years back 

[thirty2a]

Section of conduit 

[thirty2a]

My LT tram archive 

[thirty2a]

I’m sure I have the LT tractor and a tower waggon images but can’t find them right now. The book collection is not quite complete but useful, there is one notable missing item which is the mythical ‘ bare empty sheds’ but I’ve never come across a copy