How Good Are Drawings ?

[JimC]

   In "GWR Journal No3", Wild Swan Publishing, Summer 1992, there's a letter from Mike Casey, ex Swindon drawing office. It reads in part "I was taught… that I should NEVER NEVER scale off a drawing. It was drummed into me that the dimensions were there to be used, and that if I needed a dimension not shown on a particular drawing, I was probably looking at the wrong one…"

   The only drawback being that they had access to the complete set of drawings, a luxury we rarely enjoy...

[Spitfire2865]

In "GWR Journal No3", Wild Swan Publishing, Summer 1992, there's a letter from Mike Casey, ex Swindon drawing office. It reads in part [/size]"I was taught… that I should NEVER NEVER scale off a drawing. It was drummed into me that the dimensions were there to be used, and that if I needed a dimension not shown on a particular drawing, I was probably looking at the wrong one…"

   The only drawback being that they had access to the complete set of drawings, a luxury we rarely enjoy...

Plus they had the prototypes!

How I see it, as we are all building scaled down models, those fractional differences mean almost nothing.

While yes its ideal to not scale from drawings, we simply dont have that ability most of the time.

How I would love to trawl through the drawing records of the Midland, LNW, L&Y, drawings still existing and those long lost, I simply cant. The best I can hope for is the works drawings, GAs, and historical photos. There are certainly details drawn but not built, built but not drawn, but with a bit of woodworking knowledge most constructions can be figured out.

From general dimensions and a trusted drawing which measures proportionally at multiple points and directions, those few dimensions not stated can be figured out eventually to a high enough accuracy.

[relaxinghobby]

Quite so Spitfire, also for me in my own modelling many inaccuracies arise from marking out and cutting of material or how clumsily I put a kit together.

 

To cover myself I claim to be an impressionistic modeller not a highly accurate scale modeller.

[LNWR lives on]

Plus they had the prototypes!

How I see it, as we are all building scaled down models, those fractional differences mean almost nothing.

While yes its ideal to not scale from drawings, we simply dont have that ability most of the time.

How I would love to trawl through the drawing records of the Midland, LNW, L&Y, drawings still existing and those long lost, I simply cant. The best I can hope for is the works drawings, GAs, and historical photos. There are certainly details drawn but not built, built but not drawn, but with a bit of woodworking knowledge most constructions can be figured out.

From general dimensions and a trusted drawing which measures proportionally at multiple points and directions, those few dimensions not stated can be figured out eventually to a high enough accuracy.

 

Well if you are ever in the UK I would be only too happy to Welcome you to the L&NWRS study centre for you to have a good look through the Society collection.

 

In the interim a list of the drawings we hold are in pdf form at this link. http://lnwrs.org.uk/archive01.php This is being added to all the time and there are also plans afoot to digitise the lot over a period of time, which well might make them available to you via digital transfer, this is a longer term project though.

 

P.s. Wagons Supp No1 went into the post last week so should hopefully be with you soon

[Synch]

It all depends really on the person who drew it, some drawings like F.J.Roche's are just ones that should not be touched, whereas anything by J N Maskelyne is of excellent quality.  For works diagrams they can sometimes be iffy on details and accuracy, as some were really meant to just give a general idea, like those from a diagram book.

 

As a side note adjustment in some photo editing software is usually required to make sure everything's on the level rather than slightly tilted!

[relaxinghobby]

Some progress with improving the cattle truck diagram into a working drawing.

 

Using the facility of Inkscape to scale and straighten out the cattle truck diagram. The basic system learned from the Inkscape lessons by Mike Trice over on the CAD skills section. Is to draw two rectangles here in pink over the diagram to the sizes given by the dimension arrows. The side view and end treated differently. Then the drawing can be traced and corrected as you go. The original can then be made invisible leaving the corrected drawing for modelling. Here I've gone a stage further and drawn out the layers to build the model up from 20 thou' styrene sheet.

 

No Silhouette cutter yet so I've done it by hand, a slow process that can let a lot of tiny inaccuracies creep in, but it's the only way to test if my drawing design works. The drawing is transferred by printing out onto paper and gluing that to the plastic sheet with pritstick type dry glue.

 

Two days cutting by hand with a Stanley type knife sharpened up as I go.

 

Some parts ready, burrs need gently sanding off and then gluing the layers together.

Edited April 10, 2018 by relaxinghobby

[relaxinghobby]

So how good are my drawings for the littler cattle wagon?

 

The moment of truth is closer when I can fit the parts together made from the Inkscape drawing. I've already noticed some mistakes as I held temporarily the first two cut out parts together.

 

I've been gently sanding and deburring the parts as I labouriously cut them out, many of the parts are built up of three layers of 20 thou, the printed out paper plan sheet has to be washed off the plasticard before gluing. A useful sanding tool is a sheet of fine sandpaper glued to a flat sheet of plywood, the plastic work piece is rubbed up and down on this, the sandpaper and ply sandwich is lying stationary on the workbench.

 

Most of my mistakes are mine in not allowing for the thickness of the layers properly, once the glue is dried out tomorrow I can handle the parts and cut and trim any to size. Some parts I did not think of during making my drawing have become apparent as I work preparing the parts, so I've drawn them out by hand and cut them ready

 

 

So finally I will find out how good my drawing s are when I have all the ends, sides, floor, chassis parts ready to line up and fit together.

 

 

I've found this removable Stanley knife saw blade a good cutting straight-edge, the top edge is square and thick enough to hold the knife blade upright.

 

 

Corrected drawing from the original LNWR diagram end and side resized, straightened  and aligned.

 

 

[relaxinghobby]

Even with all this technology we can still make mistakes like these errors of mine in the Inkscape drawing.

Examples of the worst instances are; 1 trouble with getting the doors symmetrical, 2 protruding shapes on the light green frame, 3 planks on end off to one side, 4 uneven holes in background layer etc.







Since I've cut out the shapes by hand I've been able to correct these sorts of errors as I go, I don't know what a machine plotter cutter would do with them?

Now I've cut out the parts badly and wibbly wobbly despite being as careful as I can and I've glued up the layers to make the sides and glued the sides together. The physical model has shown up many more errors of size and ill matching parts together. My mistakes at the drawing and planning and visualising stage but a lot easier using the computer than without one. Matching and marking out many shapes the same size is infinitely easier on screen and making out parts square.

As I get used to Inkscape a big, versatile and complicated application program I hope I'll get better at using it. Not as precise as a dedicated CAD program I once used called TurboCad7 but that was a dedicated technical drawing programme, Inkscape is a graphic arts drawing app' that can do many other things as well as some technical drawings. Practice brings confidence, now with this under my belt I'm rearing to try another prototype plan and practice brings speed as well. For instance a 4 plank wagon in under a day instead of 3 weeks for one van.

Cutting out and building the model still takes a lot longer, but is necessary for the ultimate test of the plan. And I finally get my model.

No photos yet as I'm without a good enough camera.

Edited April 15, 2018 by relaxinghobby

[Quarryscapes]

You've done well. I made an etched and 3D printed model of this wagon in 2mm scale from that drawing years ago - it built up as an etched box containing planks and iron bars in the bottom, with 3d printed framing stuck n over the outside. 

[relaxinghobby]

Thanks for the encouragement Quarryscapes, I've been worrying about the iron bars in the  openings at bottom of the sides, at hoof height of the cattle.

How did you manage it in 2mm scales, almost invisible compared to 4mm scale bars?

[rab]

In "GWR Journal No3", Wild Swan Publishing, Summer 1992, there's a letter from Mike Casey, ex Swindon drawing office. It reads in part [/size]"I was taught… that I should NEVER NEVER scale off a drawing. It was drummed into me that the dimensions were there to be used, and that if I needed a dimension not shown on a particular drawing, I was probably looking at the wrong one…"

   The only drawback being that they had access to the complete set of drawings, a luxury we rarely enjoy...

In pre-CAD days the pre-printed master sheets we used always included "DO NOT SCALE" in a large bold font.

When we transferred to CAD that statement was added

to the format sheets all drawings were created on.

 

We often suggested another statement should be added:

Any similarity between this drawing and

the finished item is purely coincidental.

[Quarryscapes]

Thanks for the encouragement Quarryscapes, I've been worrying about the iron bars in the  openings at bottom of the sides, at hoof height of the cattle.

How did you manage it in 2mm scales, almost invisible compared to 4mm scale bars?

 

I just drew them at minimum etchable thickness and made do! They didn't look too bad at all really. The one blunder I did make though was forgetting the thickness of the material, so built as intended there was a gap between the printed ends and sides of etch thickness each corner! 

[Guy Rixon]

There is a special class of drawings: actual component drawings made from full-size vehicles by enthusiasts especially for the purpose of making replicas. These are the gold standard and they fill in for all the works component-drawings that were not saved when the GAs were preserved.

 

I have in front of me A. M. Gunn's drawings of details for LNWR 30'1" carriages, reproduced in Philip Millard's book on those carriages. Every last bolt is shown, and all the important dimensions are marked on. These are about as good as it gets, and I'm honouring them by making some obsessively over-detailed 3D CADs for the brake bits. There's no need to include all the detail, but it's there and it amuses me to put it in.

[relaxinghobby]

All this enthusiasm for drawing with the Inkscape program has given me a surplus of printed plans and parts to cut out and stick together. Without a cutter plotter like the Silhouette it has to be done by hand, which can take many evenings of TV time.

 

A nice sunny day so good conditions for window sill photography.

 

 

I present the cattle wagon in glorious 20 thou plastic. So far the roof plugs in and helps keep the top edge of the model supported especially when picked up which always squeezes the side in a bit.

 

 

I've found with the one piece side timbering it gives a very strong wagon body much stronger than if I built the side up from strip so perhaps my next cattle wagon can be of the very early open top, roof less type?

Also as a side strengthener I glued in partitions across the inner width, on the real railway these would have stopped the cattle treading on one another.

 

See the doors. To give some surface texture and give a used look, I glued the doors in with different thickness’s of micro-strip behind them to push them out by different amounts. The black line inside is a thin strip glued to the edge of the floor as I made it a slither too narrow.

 

Next step end ribs, angle iron and chassis, a home made one or use a kit one?

 

 

 

Also a down loaded Scots wagon appropriated from LondonTram, I down loaded his photo of his cutting paln and straightened it out i Inkscape and adjusted the sizes of end and sides to suit my cardboard thickness. It seems very small now its built. One thing with carboard a opposed to plasticard is that you can easily distress it to give that bowed out and bashed up mineral wagon look.

 

I've got to build up the dumb buffers the paper and card layers are delaminating a bit along the top edge.

 

I've also got a gunpowder wagon to start cutting out as well.

Edited April 18, 2018 by relaxinghobby

[DLT]

Very interesting, giving me ideas!

[relaxinghobby]

Now the basic shell of the cattle wagon is made I can look to the details and getting it up on it's wheels.

I've got some white metal W irons from ......?.

I've fitted the brass top hat bearings, I'm in the process of gluing these to the two plane strips that are the chassis sides. The hardest thing is to get the 2 pairs of  W irons the same distance apart so the wheels and axels are all straight.

I've also got some 'Early Coach Buffers' that look like the one in the diagram, I think they are Alan Gibson ref. 4968.

 

 

I've found no photo of these small cattle wagons, so I'm making a comparison to the Diagram 23 cattle wagon from the LNWR society website.

Edited April 22, 2018 by relaxinghobby

[Nick Holliday]

Now the basic shell of the cattle wagon is made I can look to the details and getting it up on it's wheels.

I've got some white metal W irons from ......?.

I've fitted the brass top hat bearings, I'm in the process of gluing these to the two plane strips that are the chassis sides. The hardest thing is to get the 2 pairs of  W irons the same distance apart so the wheels and axels are all straight.

I've also got some 'Early Coach Buffers' that look like the one in the diagram, I think they are Alan Gibson ref. 4968.

 

CattleWithBrackets.jpeg

 

I've found no photo of these small cattle wagons, so I'm making a comparison to the Diagram 23 cattle wagon from the LNWR society website.

There's a photo and drawing within the LNWR website of the Diagram 20 cattle trucks. http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Wagons/cattle/Diag020.php

The one you've shown looks like a passenger or prize cattle van, and as such was constructed to passenger standards, hence its buffers resembling early carriage buffers.

As for your problem getting axle guards correctly placed, Brassmasters do useful jigs for just this purpose.

http://www.brassmasters.co.uk/axle_gauges.htm

[Jol Wilkinson]

As Nick points out, the photo is of one of the Special or Prize Cattle wagons, in this case D23.

 

The plain strips you refer to are probably what are normally called solebars. These were the thick timber parts of the main wagon frame

 

At the risk of increasing your spend, I would recommend using etched w-irons on models like this. These can be glued to the floor, fitting between the solebars,  and can be slightly sprung apart to fit the wheels/axles into the brass top hat bearings. All that makes for easier assembly and alignment. The axleboxes and springs  (which need to be separate castings) can be glued in place last. That's the approach used by the smaller volume wagon kit manufacturers.

 

One kit supplier is developing a cast resin LNWR Small Cattle Wagon kit, although it is some months away.

[relaxinghobby]

Ah ha my brother critics  Jol and Nick never let me get away with anything.

The edge of the picture of the prize cattle van or passenger rated wagon was there as being a good source for showing where the iron work brackets where.

 

Thanks for reminding me there was a photo of this little diagram 20 wagon on the LNWR society website, definitely a duh! moment as Homer Simpson would explete, is that a word? it's right above the diagram of the wagon I based my drawing on I must have forgotten, but a return to the website also showed on the next page a diagram 21 cattle wagon which is closer in style and age to my model so I'll follow that for iron work.

 

Thanks to Nick for the link to Brassmasters' web site and their wheel set up gauge. I already have a few of my own version of this, but being tight and living miles away from the shops they are home made. But none to the 32 mm distance of this little wagon so I'm preparing a new one.

 

The little buffers I have look like the ones in the diagram and photo of the diagram 20 wagons ( thanks for the heads up on the LNWR Soc. Photo ) and so I'll use them they look old enough in style, from the print style of the label it makes me think they are Alan Gibson produced ones. If small manufacturers would put a logo on their products we would know who to thank.

 

 

So a kit of this is due out you say, isn’t it always the way, if you want a model of something start your own and a better kit will be bought out soon after. I better get on with mine and finish it first.

Edited April 24, 2018 by relaxinghobby

[relaxinghobby]

A revision of my drawing, the iron brackets redrawn based on the diagram 21 wagon from the LNWR society.

There is a detailed drawing and a photo where each show a slightly different arrangement of brackets.

 

Edited April 28, 2018 by relaxinghobby

[relaxinghobby]

This part of wagon construction I always find difficult, gluing together two sole-bars that have to be parallel and also the correct distance apart and the pairs of wheels have to be at right angles to them and parallel to each other.

 

( Slowly learning the Inkscape drawing app )

 

How to hold it all together while the glue sets?

 

This is my current method, a home-made balsa wood jig to hold the axles, the bearings first inserted all to the same depth into the axle boxes, so all four should be equal.

 

 

The white chassis is for the cattle wagon and this is my 2^nd go, It's still not right I'll have to pull it apart and try again.

 

On the black Cambrian kit ( 36 mm spacing ) I also have trouble getting the floor at the correct height inside the wagon sides. They are now producing one piece floor and solebars which should take care of these construction problems.

Edited April 28, 2018 by relaxinghobby

[relaxinghobby]

 

At last it's up on it's wheels but there is something wonky going on with the chassis, I can't quite

work out what it is.

The van is there for a size comparison.

 

[Spitfire2865]

Looks pretty good to me. I think your LSWR van is a little wonky though.

[sharris]

This part of wagon construction I always find difficult, gluing together two sole-bars that have to be parallel and also the correct distance apart and the pairs of wheels have to be at right angles to them and parallel to each other.

 

The jig is a good idea, and this problem of getting everything aligned is much easier if, as Jol suggested, you use etched W irons. They will fold up into a pair of assemblies that hold the axles and can be glued square to the wagon floor independently of the solebars. Then you don't have to try keeping so many things in alignment at the same time. I usually use the MJT versions, along with their springs and axleboxes, and wouldn't be without them scratchbuilding wagons.

[relaxinghobby]

 

 

On the black Cambrian kit I also have trouble getting the floor at the correct height inside the wagon sides.

 

So how do you build these old Cambrian kits, the ones before the latest versions with a one piece chassis where the floor, sole-bars and W-iron and axle box come moulded in one piece

I've got thus far, all four sides glue together in a more or less square way. With the buffer beams glued under the ends.

 

Here the floor is loose, the next step is to glue it in some how, there is a little bit of a gap all around between it and the sides. Also the bottom of the sole bars need to be level with the bottom of the buffers.

 

Ideas?