Running issues

[F-UnitMad]

F1 is usually latching, so controls the bell. F2 is typically non-latching and much better for the horn/whistle. Perhaps you have reassigned functions.

No I think you're right, I forgot the actual "F's" involved (no sniggering at the back) as I use NCE Powercab. I knew they'd make a noise anyway, rather than mute everything - not the desired result for some people, & F8 is definitely the mute. That might be standard US practise; F1 or F0 may be the standard UK mute options, I don't know. My British outline stuff is still 12vDC.

[DCB]

I think the 2 wire myth is pretty central to DCC failures.  Common sense would suggest if you have shall we say 200 separate feeds (or droppers) you group them with switches or quick disconnect plugs so you can fault find if not easily then without resort to wire cutters and or hacksaw.  

At the very least it should be possible to run the up line if there is a dead short on the down.    I think a lack of testing due to layouts where people can't actually erect the whole layout except at exhibitions could be a contributory factor.  If you have no isolators and multiple trains how on earth do you find a fault like our Q1 with an offset layshaft which hit a wheel on one particular kink in the up main?  A huge amount of grief would be saved by grouping feeds on individual 1 amp breakers, the good old H&M type with a push button reset and warning lamp would be good.

Whilst I have some sympathy for the OP, wanting to watch a layout operate and it not working I also have sympathy for the layout owner. Taking a layout to a show is not a trivial affair, involving much time and effort, and to be faced with a total failure must be embarrassing and very disappointing.

 

We recently took my own layout, Dock Green, to Basingstoke - its 20th show. We haven't had a total failure of the DCC and (touch wood) we hope not to have one! We have had a few minor problems of the sort that many layouts might suffer (point crossing polarity switch failures spring to mind) but nothing that would stop operations completely. 

 

IMO, based on my experience, there is nothing inherently fragile about good quality DCC that makes it more unreliable than DC. I am not asserting that DCC is better than DC - modellers must always remain free to choose between the two control systems and I have no axe to grind. When I watch other layouts I like to see the models moving in a realistic fashion. Jack-rabbit starts and brick-wall stops will have me turning away to look for something better. For me the control system is largely hidden and is an irrelevance - what I want to see is convincing operating.

 

One last point - the "two wires" thing. Surely we can lay this to rest? It's not true, it never was true and for any well set up layout (apart from the simplest oval) it would not apply to either DCC or DC. I illustrate this below with a snap of part of the underside of one of the baseboards of Dock Green. It was taken with the board inverted so that I could work on the wiring.

 

DSC_0145a-2.jpg

 

ATB

 

Chaz

Do you seriously just let the wires hang when its right way up?   Based on 40 odd years of working in the motor trade I always try to make sure my wiring is supported and does not hang from the connectors.  Chunks of plastic trunking is good, often available from builders skips if you ask nicely or sneak round late at night 

Edited April 4, 2018 by DavidCBroad

[chaz]

No offence meant

No offence meant, was being tounge in cheek it reminded me of my wife's hair on a bad day.

 

Seriously Yes i fully agree with the colour coding of wires and I also keep records of where wires go to

 

Andy

 

 

No offence taken. I had my tongue in my cheek when I typed "Thanks".

 

I wouldn't presume to comment on your wife's hair, I'm only glad you weren't reminded of my beard when you saw the photo'.  

[chaz]

 

Do you seriously just let the wires hang when its right way up?   Based on 40 odd years of working in the motor trade I always try to make sure my wiring is supported and does not hang from the connectors.  Chunks of plastic trunking is good, often available from builders skips if you ask nicely or sneak round late at night 

 

 

Yep. Most of the wiring is fixed at either end to the top surface and the baseboards are 6 inches (150mm) deep. All joints are soldered - there are no connectors "inside" the boards and each wire has only a moderate amount of slack, nowhere near enough for it to hang anywhere near the bottom of the ply' frames. I am sure the multi-strand wire will cope with the small amount of flexing that must occur when the baseboards are turned on their sides.

in my defence I can only say that we have never had a problem with the wiring. If I were doing it all again I would use the same approach. The trunking does look neat but surely some wires must run unsupported from the trunking to their final destination?

 

Chaz

Edited April 4, 2018 by chaz

[ianjeffery]

was the cause for the failure ever discovered? I read all the posts but might have missed it...

 

i swear i saw a post once about the lighting effecting the dcc signal and causing massive interference.......

[newbryford]

was the cause for the failure ever discovered? I read all the posts but might have missed it...

 

i swear i saw a post once about the lighting effecting the dcc signal and causing massive interference.......

 

I don't think we ever found out if the layout was DC or DCC either........

[daltonparva]

I don't think we ever found out if the layout was DC or DCC either........

It was DCC, on Saturday morning I was talking to the owner about the turntable on the layout, an Heljan 89031 which was the only thing operable because it ran on its own 12v supply.

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

I seem to remember a large and mainly vitriolic thread about DCC sound at exhibitions. The conclusions reached ( if any ) were largely the same as on this one.

 

We are modelling a transport method which involves a lot of noise much of it intrusive. Ask any preserved railway the major complaints source(s) and they will be noise and soot. In some ways this is from houses that were built long after the railway. I think all complaints about 'noisy' railways even model ones, might fall under the same heading for rebuttal Whoever heard of a totally silent steam engine or indeed diesel although great strides have been made with modern traction. Some of the more modern sound decoders are capable of a more realistic 'performance' than older ones were. The biggest argument with exhibitions is the space above the layout being so large, the temptation to wick up the volume is there.

 

I would challenge you to stand next to an idling heritage diesel with a clapped silencer for more than a few seconds without wanting to absent yourself from the source. The same applies to sound decoders. One wonders whether the complainants on this thread and any others like it, also abhor 'real' railways as much.

 

I believe one post is about lighting interfering with DCC signals and that was an old chestnut with the early Bachmann Dynamis which had an IR link between throttle and command station. Apparently it was reported that neon lighting was capable of interfering with that link. Long time ago.

 

It is impossible to run only two wires to a DCC layout that involves points with the potential of dead rails between two insulated rail joiners but it is a fact that all track wiring is capable of being joined together and led into the command station by only two wires that are not joined together anywhere on the layout. 

 

As to the layout being out for days at an exhibition, I follow the viewpoint that the operators were equally disappointed but were unable to fix the problem with resources to hand. Poor planning rather than a generic fault methinks. The biggest problem that DCC seems to breed is that large layouts ( particularly with multiple sound locos ) requires a lot of power and that can only be brought to the layout by an expensive command station or use of multiple slave command stations wired to separate power districts.

 

There are advantages to DCC like being able to run two locos on the same track and more realistic driving to a more responsive throttle but it is accepted that there are fewer disadvantages and I for one was attracted to DCC sound right from the get go. I still have most of my layout motive power with sound and the one that isn't has a good quality standard chip in it.

[Golden Fleece 30]

The problems with sound are two fold, one is the volume which is very annoying when listening to it all over the halls.  This can be turned down and as mentioned here a lot of shows do (I like to think a few exhibition managers read my article and started to do something about it). The second one is the very unrealistic sounds from a steam loco.  I am not a diesel enthusiast so cannot comment n the accuracy but with steam it is a different matter.  All the sounds I hear on layouts are from a real full size loco which is completely wrong for a small 2mm, 4mm, 7mm etc loco.  I used to own a 3 cylinder 5" live steam A4 and a 4 cylinder live steam Duchess and their sound was totally different to a full size one BUT was in keeping with the scale of the loco.  The matter is that the sound is not scaled down to the size of the loco, making it quieter is not scaling it down, and that is where the issue is. 

 

Garry 

[Grovenor]

All the sounds I hear on layouts are from a real full size loco which is completely wrong for a small 2mm, 4mm, 7mm etc loco.

The more common complaint is that they are not close enough to a full size loco. It's the sound of a full size loco that most of us want. People even put sound chips in small live steam locos to get a 'better' sound that they can manage naturally.

Regards

[Golden Fleece 30]

The more common complaint is that they are not close enough to a full size loco. It's the sound of a full size loco that most of us want. People even put sound chips in small live steam locos to get a 'better' sound that they can manage naturally.

Regards

It is easy enough to go to a preserved railway or near the main line often for a full sized steam loco sound

 

Garry

[newbryford]

I seem to remember a large and mainly vitriolic thread about DCC sound at exhibitions. The conclusions reached ( if any ) were largely the same as on this one.

 

 

 

Yep - they did. And that's just one of the threads with a similar conclusion.

 

In much the same way that this one is heading towards the same conclusions for DCC vs DC.

 

Sound or not, DCC or not DC - each has it's own benefits. Just like 00 v OO or 16.5 v 18.83, or steam v diesel, GWR v everyone else..... etc...

[Ian Abel]

It is easy enough to go to a preserved railway or near the main line often for a full sized steam loco sound

 

Garry

Were it THAT simple.

Apparently, along with your personal distain for all things DCC, you managed to miss/dismiss the fact that some (quite a few actually) of "us" are about 3,000 miles or more from it being "easy enough to go to a preserved railway..."

 

I, for one am quite happy with DCC, the sound locos I have (ALL STEAM), and enjoy, provided they are suitably moderated in sound, the few exhibits I get to see on the occasions I'm back in the UK. I've seen many excellent DCC/sound presentations as well as an equal number of DC/quiet once, I'm happy to see them ALL, as the builders/operators are choosing THEIR time/money and modeling skills to provide what THEY like and hopefully "we" will enjoy.

 

Perhaps, if there appears to be a propensity for DCC/sound layout more and more at shows, rather than foist your limited perspective on others you could choose to stay away instead or become a little more broad minded??

[chaz]

This hobby of ours can be huge. it can encompass all manner of approaches, subjects, periods modelled, ways of doing things, skills employed etc etc. 

 

I can't see any reason for vitriol - it's a hobby for goodness sake. OK, you go to a show and are disappointed by one, two or even all the layouts. It happens. You won't have paid that much to get in. I have been to an occasional show where I wasn't that impressed with anything - I came to the conclusion that I couldn't have been in the right mood. 

[Andymsa]

One point that's not been raised about sound is the distance you are from the loco, what I mean is you can still hear it when it's let's say 10 feet away at roughly the same volume as when right next to it. The sound should be subtle not overpowering. Even although I own sound chip locos these are ones that were already fitted with it and it is not often I turn it on, and when I do its to show what can be done with DCC. More often when I do turn it on it just turns into a mess of noise.

 

Andy

[Oldddudders]

This hobby of ours can be huge. it can encompass all manner of approaches, subjects, periods modelled, ways of doing things, skills employed etc etc. 

 

I can't see any reason for vitriol - it's a hobby for goodness sake. OK, you go to a show and are disappointed by one, two or even all the layouts. It happens. You won't have paid that much to get in. I have been to an occasional show where I wasn't that impressed with anything - I came to the conclusion that I couldn't have been in the right mood.

 

Sorry, Chaz, that won’t wash. Being reasonable has no place in a thread where the OP felt let down by a broken layout, despite, presumably, other layouts delivering running trains as expected. And the layout was DCC, which we all know is asking for trouble in the first place.

 

Elsewhere on RMweb you can find, any day of the week, aggrieved modellers who have just learnt that the RTR loco which will save their soul hasn’t even yet reached the slow boat from China.

 

You suggest our hobby isn’t a matter of life and death - and you are of course right. For some it is much more important than that. Please deal with it.

[F-UnitMad]

Were it THAT simple.

Apparently, along with your personal distain for all things DCC, you managed to miss/dismiss the fact that some (quite a few actually) of "us" are about 3,000 miles or more from it being "easy enough to go to a preserved railway..."

 

 

It's ok, as we've seen, the OP deals mainly in Sweeping Generalisations anyway.

I'm off now to check my DCC layout & stock haven't all spontaneously combusted in the last 20 hours, despite the transformer not even being plugged into the mains. After all, it's DCC and sound, so inherently unreliable and dangerous!!!

[John K]

i swear i saw a post once about the lighting effecting the dcc signal and causing massive interference.......

That would be a Bachmann Dynamis and a fluorescent light.

Worlds worst DCC,

John

Edited April 4, 2018 by John K

[newbryford]

That would be a Bachmann Dynamis and a fluorescent light.

Worlds worst DCC,

John

 

Not quite the worst - IMO.

Edited April 4, 2018 by newbryford

[GoingUnderground]

Post duplicated. Now deleted.

Edited April 5, 2018 by GoingUnderground

[GoingUnderground]

I always thought the main part of any layout was the controller so I usually take a spare which I did once have to use. I will admit I have forgotten a couple of times and thankfully not needed one.

 

I guess you need spare light bulbs for yours although is it getting harder to obtain filament bulbs or will modern low energy ones suffice?

I think you are so wrapped up on your irrational dislike of DCC that you didn't notice the irony in my post.

 

I feel tremendous sympathy for anyone who takes a layout to a show only to find that it has major electrical problems.

 

Any layout could fail PAC testing snd the show organisers would be obliged to ban the layout from powering up.

 

Also your comments that only DC should be used in exhibition layouts would rule out most Hornby O gauge 3 rail layouts, which I recently found out, use 20 volts AC, not DC, which is strange given your love of vintage models. It would also rule out all layouts based on Maerklin rolling stock. Maerklin still use low voltage AC. I was once invited to see the private layout of a model shop owner in a small Swiss village. The layout was based on Maerklim rolling stock, snd was magnificent.

 

If your comments against DCC were meant to be sincere, then I think you need to learn to be more tolerant of others. This is supposed to be a hobby that unites us all in our love of railways through our models, no matter what scale, gauge, prototype or country we model, or the motive power used in our models, be it clockwork, live steam. AC, DC or any of the digital protocols, DCC, MM, mfx, Selectrix, DCS, TMCC, or BlueRail, ot even Zero 1.

 

Please leave your prejudices at home.

Edited April 5, 2018 by GoingUnderground

[RAF96]

There has been discussion recently about these new fangled led replacements for normal light bulbs casting as much if not more electrical noise about than those powerline adaptors people use to get Internet around the house.

[WIMorrison]

There has been discussion recently about these new fangled led replacements for normal light bulbs casting as much if not more electrical noise about than those powerline adaptors people use to get Internet around the house.

That would have been mud discussion where I found that the electrical noise from some new LED floodlights that I had bought for the railway room were so noisy that they were killing the Wi-Fi signal. It is the switched mode power supplies that are not high quality and despite saying that the are CE approved we all know that this is a self certified meaningless statement m.

 

I went back to the old fashioned flourescents which give me the light I wanted, just not as cheap to run

 

But back to DCC where I have just had a loco destroy a decoder - no rhyme or reason, one minute motoring next minute not motoring, and eventually I replaced the chip and it works again perfectly - and thank goodness for DecoderPro as I was able to restore the strings from the old chip into the new one

[Sunnysa]

I ran DCC exhibition layouts for yrs without any problems.

 

Over the yrs on the exhibition circuit I have seen a couple of DCC op layouts with trouble which was not the fault of DCC but caused by the operators not knowing what they were doing.

 

Over the yrs I also saw a few DC analog layouts having trouble of various kinds.

 

One DC layout was down for 2 days of a 3 day show. Another DC layout not op for a full day.

 

 It sounds to me some people will find any excuse to rubbish DCC.

 

In AUG 95 it was DCC that kept me in this great hobby, I was sick of pushing buttons and flicking switches to run trains not to mention all the wiring etc.

 

What is the difference between  toy trains and a model railway?

 

Answer,  DCC   LOL

 

Cheers

Ian

Edited April 6, 2018 by Sunnysa

[RAF96]

In my experience the main difference between a toy train set and a model railway is the difference of opinion betwixt the layout operator and the layout observer. One man’s meat is another man’s poison as they say.

 

My layout could never ever be classed as a model railway being sparsely scenic, totally inaccurate in many ways, but spot on for running what I want and how I want it for now. Others would be horrified by it.

 

Rob