Reusing a PowerCab. Last stupid question for a while

[Marcyg]

Been looking at the difference between the NCE booster and smart boosters. I realise with the smart booster, the original powercab turns into a normal handset that can be unplugged. Is it possible to still use the powercab and utp to run my depot, and use 2 dumb booster to do the rest? I know I'd never be able to unplug the handset whilst the layout is on, which isn't a problem for me, I'd wire in other utp's and have standard handsets for moving about. Obviously everything would be protected with circuit breakers

[66C]

Hi

 

Have you looked at the information on the NCE website?

 

Specifically:

 

https://ncedcc.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/201480075-Step-2-Option-A-Power-Cab-SB5-Smartbooster

 

If your depot is physically part of the layout, there is no need to use the Powercab as the command station - the SB5 does that for you.

 

If your depot is completely separate from the rest of the layout then you simply use the Powercab as supplied.

 

Regards.

[Marcyg]

Hi. I read most of the site to be honest. I realise the smart booster replaces the PowerCab as the base unit. I think my needs are for 2 5amps to run all the main lines and use the 2amp capability to run the depot. It’s not separate, it’s part of the layout. I just didn’t want to but a full 5amp for the depot as I’m not sure it requires that much power

[John ks]

Have a look here at the diagram marked Connecting LOTS of boosters to an NCE system

 

It looks to have the boosters connected via a 4.7 to 8 ohm resistor to the track power

 

NCE uses 2 busses( control cables) 

 

One for the Control Bus Cable which joins the boosters together & ideally should have a smart booster at on end

 

The other  is for the cabs(throttles) & UTP's

 

It looks to me that if you connect your powercab & its UTP as normal & feed one power district (depot)from it

 

From that track feed before the circuit breaker you feed the boosters as shown in the diagram

 

Danger Danger Will Robertson You do this at your own risk

 

​I use Digitrax & this information is the result of trawling the internet for the last hour

 

John

[John ks]

Just remembered talk on other threads regarding problems connecting extra throttles to the powercab

 

Is it possible to use 1 SB & 1 DB & feed your depot from one of these

 

Or the depot from 1 booster & the rest from the other booster

 

Consider that a depot especially a loco depot could have 10 or more sound locos & 5amps might not be an overkill

 

Whereas the main lines may only have 4 or 5 trains at an one time & then 5amps could be more than adequate. 

 

 

I think I would start with a SB & a DB, try it out and if more power is required the an extra booster could be added later

 

More stuff to ponder

 

John

Edited April 3, 2018 by John ks

[Ray H]

What gauge are we talking about?

[Ron Ron Ron]

.....Is it possible to still use the powercab and utp to run my depot, and use 2 dumb booster to do the rest? ......

 

 

I'm not exactly sure what you are proposing here?

 

If you mean, keep the PowerCab as the Command Station with its built-in booster to run one Power District (your depot) and from this to feed a dumb booster(s) to run the other Power District(s) (rest of the layout); then no It's not possible.

 

As I'm sure you're aware, the PowerCab handset contains the systems Command Station and Booster function.

It has no means of connecting its internal Command Station to external boosters.

 

When the PowerCab handset is plugged into the SB5 Smart Booster, or a NCE PowerHouse main system Command Station (CS02 or PH Box), the PowerCab handset's internal Command Station and Booster functions are isolated and redundant.

The SB5, CS02 or PH Box then takes over the Command Station function.

As you recognise, the PowerCab handset is then effectively a PowerPro handset.

 

So to do as you are asking, the PowerCab must be plugged into either an SB5 or a main system Command Station (e.g. a PH Box).

This can then either feed the whole layout (as a single Power District), .....or just one part of the layout (e.g. the depot, or the rest of the layout), with an additional booster added to feed the other part ( i.e. forming 2 Power Districts).

 

 

What you can't, or shouldn't do, is to use the PowerCab to power one Powerr District (e.g. the depot) and then use another Command Station to feed another Power District (e.g. the rest of the layout).

There can only be one Command Station in operation, unless the two systems are completely isolated with absolutely no possibility of their respective tracks or Power Buses being connected, or bridged together.

If that happens the whole lot will end up in the dustbin.

 

Ron

 

 

.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Ron Ron Ron

[Grovenor]

If you mean, keep the PowerCab as the Command Station with its built-in booster to run one Power District (your depot) and from this to feed a dumb booster(s) to run the other Power District(s) (rest of the layout); then no It's not possible.

It's perfectly possible with boosters that have an isolated input and can use the DCC track signal as an input, these are available, one example is the MERG kit booster. There is no need for any special connection to the PowerCab, the track connection is enough.

Regards

[John ks]

Ron Ron Ron

 

Have a look here at the diagram marked Connecting LOTS of boosters to an NCE system​ & tell me if this would work

 

 

Big drawback is if you forget & unplug the powercab, the whole system goes down

 

Not the way I would do it but I think it answers the original question

 

John

 

& as I said in an earlier post Danger Danger Will Robertson You do this at your own risk

 

 

[Phil S]

Picking up on your comment that you didn't want to have 5A feeding an area for which 2A would be adequate....few layouts need 5A to all areas. And are best subdivided into sub districts with devices like the PSX intelligent circuit breaker....so that the protected area(s) beyond is/are limited to eg 1 or 2 or 3A (excluding decimal places).

Do you really need additional power (simultaneously)? ... Wouldn't just a few breakers be more appropriate ...and it reduces the required wiring capacity because the protected area can only ever carry the lower normal (and short) current.

 

If point solenoids are separated out ( either by accessory by or separated power supply /CDU modules ) then the maximum running current may by quite low... Increased by coach lighting and sound, but reduced by modern locos..

[Ron Ron Ron]

Ron Ron Ron

 

Have a look here at the diagram marked Connecting LOTS of boosters to an NCE system​ & tell me if this would work

 

power cab.jpg

 

Big drawback is if you forget & unplug the powercab, the whole system goes down

 

Not the way I would do it but I think it answers the original question

 

John

 

& as I said in an earlier post Danger Danger Will Robertson You do this at your own risk

 

 

Sorry for the late response John.

Yes I have seen that NCE diagram.

 

I don't have electrical or electronics knowledge, but my understanding is that the use of the resistor, is to limit the DCC track output, down to a level that can be safely accepted by the booster's Control Bus input.

Not the usual way of doing things and something not recommended elsewhere AFAICS.

I have no idea how effective of safe that would be, but like you, it's not the way I would do it either.

 

 

The OP may be looking for ways to minimise the cost of installing DCC to the layout in question, but there are certain corners that cannot be easily cut, either for pragmatic reasons (wanting a safe, reliable, robust set up), or as a matter of good sound common sense,

 

My personal view is that the logical approach to the OP's requirement, would be to use either.....

...a reasonably powerful NCE Command Station/Booster combo (e.g. PH Box or the limited SB5)  to power the whole layout, employing circuit breakers to create sub districts (e.g. depot, various sections of the layout and accessories if needed).

...or, as the OP suggests, a similar/same NCE Command Station/Booster to power one (or more) districts and an additional booster to power another district.

 

With the PowerCab handset operating as just a Cab (effectively a ProCab).

 

For NCE users, a ready alternative to more NCE kit, is the DCC Concepts Alpha Box (a 5 amp booster).

 

Page 15 & 16 of this DCC Concepts pdf covers NCE kit.....

( note that with the arrangement on page 15, the PowerCab appears to remain as the Command Station; unlike when using an SB5)

 

https://www.dccconcepts.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/ALPHA-manual-Central-Box-REV-July-21-2016.pdf

 

 

 

.

Edited April 5, 2018 by Ron Ron Ron

[Marcyg]

Right, hoping this works. I set up a Flickr account so I can upload pictures. The layout is currently wired for DC, so was hoping to use those natural breaks to aid with the DCC wiring. Some people seem to think this is a bad idea, so here are some pics of it, so if anyone has some good suggestions on how to break it down into power districts please feel free. My locos are a mixture of a lot of Lima (all extra pick ups etc), Hornby, Dapol, Bachmann, Vi sand so on. There will be double headed Heljan trains on the freight lines, and I understand they are quite greedy in the amount of juice they pull. Really sorry, I don't know how to upload images on to here properly. Flickr, or the board won't do it.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/157358101@N07/40535397654/in/dateposted-public/

This is the main fiddle yard. The 2, 8 road fans on the right towards the end are the fast line yards. The 3 road about half way down on the right is a bi-directional yard for my 2 APT's and my test train. The 2 yards on the left are the freight. There's a small bit to add to this on the end where the board is empty. This will mostly be lines for the branch. Closest to the camera, on the right, is the relief line yard. I was hoping to break it up so each line and its yard, is its own power district. Not sure if the freight yard is too large for this though.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/157358101@N07/27376092878/in/dateposted-public/

The TMD. I'm guessing the best solution is to have this powered by 1 5amp booster on its own, split into 2 sections.The 2 lines to the right are the mains, the next 2 are the relief, 1 becoming the branch, and the last, nest to the TMD is the freight line.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/157358101@N07/40353584975/in/dateposted-public/

Station area

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/157358101@N07/40353584085/in/dateposted-public/

The south end of the station, which is the throat to the fiddle yard

 

Originally, I was thinking 2.5amp to the 2 main lines, 2.5 to the relief, a full 5amp split in half for the freight lines and the last booster for the TMD. Any thoughts or suggestions are more than welcome. Cheers

[Ron Ron Ron]

When it comes to dividing a layout up into power districts and sub-districts, there's more than one way to skin a cat.

In fact it might be less contentious if we just stick to discussing how to skin cats.

 

Personally, I wouldn't have a running line and its own associated fiddle yard, such as yours, on the same power or sub district.

Also, there are practical issues, such as if there's a short in that district, how much more difficult will it be to find it on nearly 100 ft of track and several storage roads?

 

If there are to be lots of locos, MU's etc, sitting in the TMD and fiddle yard sidings, personally I would keep these separate and provide them with a suitable track power supply.

The running lines can be carved up any way you want them, individual lines, geographical zones, according to operating practice etc.

 

...now, about those cats.....

 

 

Ron

 

.

[Marcyg]

I think the issue I’m having is how to divvy up the fiddle yard and how many amps to assign to each area. I’m not going to have hundreds of sound engines thrumming away waiting to go. I’m also aware that locos only draw when they’re running anyway. I’m just not sure how to skin this particular cat

[Ron Ron Ron]

Well they can make nice rugs....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[NIK]

Right, hoping this works. I set up a Flickr account so I can upload pictures. The layout is currently wired for DC, so was hoping to use those natural breaks to aid with the DCC wiring. Some people seem to think this is a bad idea, so here are some pics of it, so if anyone has some good suggestions on how to break it down into power districts please feel free. My locos are a mixture of a lot of Lima (all extra pick ups etc), Hornby, Dapol, Bachmann, Vi sand so on. There will be double headed Heljan trains on the freight lines, and I understand they are quite greedy in the amount of juice they pull. Really sorry, I don't know how to upload images on to here properly. Flickr, or the board won't do it.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/157358101@N07/40535397654/in/dateposted-public/

This is the main fiddle yard. The 2, 8 road fans on the right towards the end are the fast line yards. The 3 road about half way down on the right is a bi-directional yard for my 2 APT's and my test train. The 2 yards on the left are the freight. There's a small bit to add to this on the end where the board is empty. This will mostly be lines for the branch. Closest to the camera, on the right, is the relief line yard. I was hoping to break it up so each line and its yard, is its own power district. Not sure if the freight yard is too large for this though.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/157358101@N07/27376092878/in/dateposted-public/

The TMD. I'm guessing the best solution is to have this powered by 1 5amp booster on its own, split into 2 sections.The 2 lines to the right are the mains, the next 2 are the relief, 1 becoming the branch, and the last, nest to the TMD is the freight line.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/157358101@N07/40353584975/in/dateposted-public/

Station area

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/157358101@N07/40353584085/in/dateposted-public/

The south end of the station, which is the throat to the fiddle yard

 

Originally, I was thinking 2.5amp to the 2 main lines, 2.5 to the relief, a full 5amp split in half for the freight lines and the last booster for the TMD. Any thoughts or suggestions are more than welcome. Cheers

 

Hi,

 

Just for info the three thirstiest locos I've tested are all Heljan:

These were tested at 12 Volts DC on a Rolling Road (the continuous current is the right hand column).

So the voltage is probably near enough worst case but the current may go up when hauling a train.

 

The colours were for my benefit as some of the DCC decoders I am considering using have 0.7, 0.8  and 0.9 Amp maximum continuous currents.

 

 

Regards

 

Nick

[Ray H]

I would suggest taking a bit of care with using a rolling road to test current draw although in my experience the one I used tended to show a higher rather than lower current draw - a kind of fail safe.

 

My colleague has an O gauge layout in his garage (and garden). He has one NCE SB5 and a couple of MERG boosters which is more than enough (for several O gauge Heljans with their twin motors).

 

I run my OO gauge layout off a single NCE SB5 supplying three power districts and don't have any problems.

 

Another thing is that - and this maybe just me - but after a while I find that the noise from stationary locos (either steam or diesel) gets too much and I turn the sound off. You may find likewise so may not need to worry too much about allowing for numerous locos on tick over.

[Phil S]

if you run a passenger service ... it might be the coach lighting which adds up in the storage area, rather than the sound, which you would be likely to mute, if not about to be used imminently. ... because unswitched lighting is a lot cheaper and easier to install than dcc-switched lighting   - unless using 'analogue' lighting with big stay alive capacitors ... which would cause their own problems when power was re-applied if it had been removed [ a situation which PSXs help resolve ]

[Marcyg]

I think, all things being as they are, Im going to go with my original idea of 1 track per zone, maybe modify it so the freight fiddle has its own booster. If a track goes down, it’s my home layout, so if it takes me a week to find the fault it’s no biggy. If I run into problems, it’s only parts of the bus I’ll have to change, again, no biggy. It’s nothing compared to having the main loom out of a euro6 scania!

[Ron Ron Ron]

Do give some thought to installing some form of break points in the long bus runs, using either circuit breakers, switches, or some form of plug or connector.

This will aid in fault finding, as the various sections can be isolated in turn to help find the problem, if not immediately obvious.

[Marcyg]

Thanks Ron, you’ve been so much help. I’ve had another thought though. All the while I been planning this thing with 5amp boosters. Is it possible to use one of the bigger 10amp boosters and just divvy up the power into more sections? set the breakers at 2.5 or 3amps. Could help with the fiddle yard

[Ron Ron Ron]

A 10 amp booster is going to present other issues that must be taken into account.

I'm sure those with an understanding of the electrical implications will help out here.

 

I'm pretty sure the answer will be, no, not the best way to go.

 

Your layout is of a size that really requires a more than adequate, robust DCC set up.

If you intend to stick with NCE equipment, I'd say the first thing too consider will be a 5 amp PH Box.

Personally I'd say forget going down the SB5 & DB5 route.

The PH Box ( combined Command Station and Booster) is the proper, full NCE system and should provide enough power for the whole layout.

Use circuit breakers to create sub-districts.

 

Alternatively, use a PH Box plus another Booster to create two Power Districts, with each of those again sub divided into sub-districts.

Additional Boosters can be from NCE's own matching PB range, or from another manufacturer.

For example, the Tam Valley Depot Booster is available for around £40 to £45, plus the cost of a power supply.

 

Another option is to look at the DCC Concepts booster. It's plug and play with the NCE kit.

 

That's just my opinion though. 

 

 

 

.

[Nigelcliffe]

10Amp systems and OO are not the way to go (wiring gets considerably more demanding, and its not really adding benefit, just hassle). 

Stick with 5A, and if you really need more amps, then add more boosters physically closer to where they are needed. 

Design the wiring and position of circuit breakers so that, should it prove necessary, you can break the wiring just prior to circuit breakers and introduce an extra booster. 

 

I'm in agreement with Ron. If wanting NCE system, then buy the PowerPro 5A core to the system. Don't mess about trying to do a budget-bodge of various components which are intended for other purposes.  If budget really won't allow the PowerPro, then find out how to build your own DCC system (some published designs on the web, or MERG will sell you kits), or design a layout which is within budget.  

 

I'm not convinced that you'll need more than 5A for the size of things proposed, unless you're also adding a lot of automated running.  With just one or two people driving, they'll be unlikely to be able to control 5A of moving trains.  

[Marcyg]

On suggestion, I've had a look at Tamvalley. They seem to be massively cheaper than the NCE kit booster wise. A 5A NCE smart booster and 2-3 Tamvalley boosters with circuit breakers I think should fit my budget quite well. I think the Propower is a bit out my price range, designing another layout isn't going to happen really, it's my dream layout, I just need to make it work. The problem I'm having is some of my locos pull on the power. It's been said 5A should be enough, but a double headed Heljan train could pull 2A, that leaves just 3 left for everything else. It seems reasonable to think Heljan locos will pull that much as I heard of them blowing chips that are rated at 0.75A. The Tamvalley stuff could be the answer, with it being quite small could be mounted exactly where its needed rather than my original idea of putting all the equipment in one place and running the wires out from it.

[Marcyg]

Can the circuit breaker total exceed the output of the booster powering that district if multiple breakers are used?