Jump to content

ianLMS

Falcon Brass kit - LMS Horsebox Dia 1956

Recommended Posts

Good afternoon fountains of knowledge,

I picked up a Falcon Brassworks kit of the LMS Horsebox, Dia 1956 as my first attempt at building an etched kit from Dart Castings at York. I have been searching online to see if I can find any information concerning Dia 1956, but very little pops up. The instructions dont give a huge amount of information on the prototype either which makes it a bit more of a challenge from the Parkside plastic kits I am used to working with.

 

Does anyone have any knoweldge of the kits, or of the prototype? I have seen lots of ranting and raving about Falcon, but as its my first kit, I dont have anything to compare it against, so happy to make my own mind up.

 

I need to supply my own wheels, and again, am wondering which sized/type wheels would be appropriate. I have a couple of pairs of Alan Gigson's spoked wheels for wagons and I have a few 3-hole wheels for my coaches. The Hornby horsebox has the 3-hole wheels, and looking at images on Google, the Horseboxes I have seen have the 3-hole wheels as well. I think I have answered my own question, but no harm in checking with the experts on RMWeb is there?

 

Much appreciated.

 

Ian

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

I'm not familiar with this one, can you post a pic to show if it's one of the 'all in one fold ups'  

 

If it is, Coachman has suggested cutting the sides & ends from the floor and assembling in the traditional way. He also suggested soldering the doors etc in place first to give it more strength.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Ian

 

Just looked up these horseboxes in the LMS Coaches book, from what I can see they had 3ft 7.5in plain disc wheels, what era are you thinking of finishing it in?

 

Ian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not familiar with this one, can you post a pic to show if it's one of the 'all in one fold ups'  

 

If it is, Coachman has suggested cutting the sides & ends from the floor and assembling in the traditional way. He also suggested soldering the doors etc in place first to give it more strength.

 

Ian

 

I can echo Crispies advice, the solebars are difficult to fold, the etch with the W Irons and brake gear unwieldy 

 

I for one after both building a couple and reading the replies ai another thread would go for a new etched W Irons and plastic solebar and brake gear

 

Good luck 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you all for your advice. I will take a pic of it tonight and post it up for review. After another proper look last night, the sketch of the prototype is on the instructions, and advises 3'7" disc wheels which Ianwales advises above. I happen to have a set of Alan Gibson 4005 14mm disc coach wheels in stock so will use those. I intend to finish it in LMS livery as I model around 1939. I have seen models of them in grey and crimson on Google, but I would imagine the prototype was Crimson and reading up on horseboxes, they tended to travel at the front of expresses.

 

Whatever happens, I am lookng forward to developing my kit building skills, learning lots along the way and I accept I will make many mistakes. 

 

Thank you all

 

Ian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

.... the solebars are difficult to fold ....

 

Score the fold lines with a Stanley knife or scrawker until nearly through - fold - then reinforce on the inside with solder.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Link to another thread I referred to in the reply above

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/132404-beginners-kit-building-brass-kits/

 

May or may not be of use

Thank you for that - i read quite a bit of it yesterday with great interest and was a bit peterbed by the amount of negative responses to his thread/Falcon kits, but pleased with the different hints/tips and guidance.

 

I would prefer to do a thread of "this is my attempt/experience...." not necessarily an instruction of "how to....", especially when I know nothing about this kit or how to build them.  My kit seems to be in different packaging, but not sure if they updated the etches recently or not. We will see when I post a pic of the kit and relevent parts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Score the fold lines with a Stanley knife or scrawker until nearly through - fold - then reinforce on the inside with solder.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

 

Thanks but from what I remember the solebars have thick ends and the face being thin as it has had the detail etched on to it. Folding these thick bits (which seem oversize) ends up with in my opinion a solebar which is too thin and channels too long. Or is it as usual I have completely misunderstood the building procedure 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I will have a look at the kit in more detail when I get home and see if I can photograph the etches and begin to fathom out the way it goes together.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re solebar folding.

Like any task, it's quite easy if you have the correct equipment, ie, a hold and fold of some variety, or, as some prefer, bending bars.

I admit to being a cack handed bodger when it comes to bending and soldering metal, due mainly to a life time of plumbing, which puts model soldering well into micro surgery for me, but with the correct equipment and techniques, I can get a decent fold out of fine parts, 2 which spring readily and recently to mind being the N Brass lighting gantry and the inestimable MacGeordies coke hoppers.

Practice and perseverence is your friend.

 

Mike.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks but from what I remember the solebars have thick ends and the face being thin as it has had the detail etched on to it. Folding these thick bits (which seem oversize) ends up with in my opinion a solebar which is too thin and channels too long. Or is it as usual I have completely misunderstood the building procedure 

 

Then decide where the fold should be and use a scrawker to create a fold line that nearly, but not quite, penetrates through the etch; (angle the scrawker either side of vertical to create a 90 degree fold line).

 

Then, as previously suggested, fold and solder.

 

If you don't fancy that, replace the etched solebars with milled brass channel section.

 

If you have a rivetting tool you can press the detail into the channel; if not, press the detail with a sharp point into some 5 thou. brass shim or plastic sheet, and solder / glue it into the channel.

 

As has been stated many times, these kits are 1970s technology and require a little resourcefulness.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have the tools and the guidance from RMWeb, just the confidence and skill to go with it now!!! I have a 40w and 20w iron, 145, 188 and 70 degree solder, flux from London Road, Carrs (Red) and an old bottle from somewhere, a fibreglass pencil, files, snips and a hold n fold. I am armed, locked n loaded and ready to go over the top. Well, when I have finished decorating the house first!!!!! Got to keep the good lady happy or she will cut my modelling time down!

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A previous thread here has some details of the prototype. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/94864-lms-horse-box/page-1

 

Paul Bartlett has some photos. http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/lmsparcels

 

 

That was my main criticism of the other thread. It wasn't his techniques, it was jumping feet first into what is a difficult kit without doing the necessary research on the prototype. Even looking at the Hornby version shows you how it should look.

 

 

I think I've got an unbuilt one of these somewhere. I'll have a look for it and get back.

 

 

 

Jason

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you have a rivetting tool you can press the detail into the channel; if not, press the detail with a sharp point into some 5 thou. brass shim or plastic sheet, and solder / glue it into the channel.

 

Alternatively, cut away the half-etched bit of the solebar etch and fit it into the brass channel as an overlay. That's assuming that the etched detail is right, of course; not a safe assumption with Jidenco stuff, but it might be close enough.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I found my LMS Horsebox kit.

 

 

But it's not a Jidenco/Falcon kit, it's a Chivers Finelines kit of the same diagram. I haven't got a camera, but if I can borrow one then I'll try and get a few pictures of the etches to see if they are of any use.

 

 

 

Jason

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re Scrawker usage, be careful when using to ensure that you do not cut too deep or the etch can literally break in half when its  bent over (guess how I know) . After each stroke check the rear of the etch, stop when you see a "witness" line showing on the rear of the piece. It should then bend over easily at this point . If it doesn't check/bend after each stroke of the blade until it bends easily into the needed shape/profile.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As promised, here are a couple of pics of the etch and the instructions. I have a Hornby Horse Box so I have something half decent to follow. I assume I need to use a roller to ge tthe curve on the sides to match the profile on the end sections? If so, what size roller do you recommend?

 

The help on RMWeb is second to none and I thank you all for your guidanceand especially ianwales for sending me information on the horsebox from one of his books. I feel all warm inside  :sungum:  :senile:

post-21193-0-10203100-1522913656_thumb.jpg

post-21193-0-13617400-1522913670_thumb.jpg

post-21193-0-25369700-1522913687_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I recently built the very similar Special Cattle Van: have a look at my thread, ‘West End Workbench’ in case any of that is useful.

 

One handy tip is to solder a piece of old rail between the tops of the ends to give you something else to glue the roof to. Either place it to avoid vents and lamps or stick them on the surface of the roof once fitted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would think very hard about the underframe, perhaps seeing if a replacement chassis is available from one of the kit manufactures. Perhaps beefing up the solebars might be an option. If you can use the W irons new brake gear will be required

 

Good luck with this one, certainly will be challenging, hopefully also enjoyable

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you both - whatever kit i would have ended up with was going to be a challenge, so I am prepared for a steep learing curve. Pitfalls a plenty I am sure, but fun and learning as I go is the objective of this exercise. A bonus would be a complete LMS horsebox which will happily trundle along the tracks and looks reasonably ok.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good morning folks,

During a short break in between plastering drying and painting the utility room, I managed to put in a few hours and started on the Falcon kit. Thanks to ianwales for the info from one of his books, I managed to get as far as I have done. The instructions left a lot for the builder to assume, or the instrcutions assume anyone who is building their kits should already know what they are doing and therefore, and fill in the gaps, or carry out tasks not listed.

 

I have attached a pic of progress so far. As I have said before, this is my first brass kit attempt and I am using it as a developmental tool, and am certainly not looking for a perfect model to adorn a display case or exhibition layout.

 

What I have learnt so far;

1. Read instructions first, but logically follow them in practice to identify steps they have missed. Example, instrcutions did not mention when to solder the bearings in the W brackets, nor the need to drill out every hole to match the thickness of brass rod supplied, or which way around to mount the W brackets and where, how to work out the correct distance between the axles , the need to shape the sides to fit the profile of the ends etc.

 

2. The W brackets were too low, so the white metal axle boxes wouldnt mount properly (hence the need for the styrene strip under the solebar and the buffer height is around 3mm too high (i can live with that seeing as I have R-T-R with different buffer heights!)

 

3. Soldering is easy - soldering neatly is an art-form!! As you can see, a large Albotross flew over and dumped large amounts of metallic bird-poop over my model. Not impressed and not easy to clean without un-soldering the parts. One of the things I need to remeber is less flux - where the flux goes, so does the solder so as you can see, it has ran into places I didnt want it to.

 

4. Biggest challenge so far was not folding the solebars, W brackets (easy with the Hold n fold) or the body, but the side steps. Very fiddly,  awkward to mount, keep straight and put in the correct position. Next challenge is the brake gear. Instruictions and mounting points are non existent so again, assumption is that I should already know what goes where, so get on with it. Therefore, I will do what I think looks right and see what happens!!

 

Any advice is welcomed. 

post-21193-0-24804900-1523353147_thumb.jpg

Edited by ianLMS
  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jidenco instructions are an object lesson in awfulness. On their GC brake van, you are instructed to fit all the handrails, then some steps later you fit the corner overlays - which the handrails go through.

 

I don't recall any gotchas in the SCV. I don't use their W irons, the height is never correct. Use MJT ones, or Comet if it has 14mm wheels. The buffers can be replaced with Lanarkshire Models ones as well, that will help the look of the finished model.

 

Are you going to solder the strapping or superglue? I usually glue.

 

Soldering - doesn't matter how messy it is if it's inside or underneath. It can't be seen. Just keep window surrounds clear and smooth so you can fit the glazing easily.

 

I'd be pleased with that so far.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you both - I am enjoying building it and it will be another few days before I get chance to tackle the rest. I still have a lot to do but am hopeful I will get it to the painting stage towards the end of next week. Hopefuly, other brass kits I decide to make will be easier and instructions will be better written for the likes of me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.