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BR(W) Train reporting numbers.


Jon Fitness

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The WR introduced 4 character train reporting numbers from (I think) the June 1959 WTT (possibly Winter 58?), these were a hybrid of the later alpha-numeric system, with the first digit the train class; ie 1 - express pass, 2 - stopping pass etc; the second a destination number, as per Mike's earlier list, then an individual two digit train number.

 

As, during 1959, agreement was reached on an all-region system based on this but with a letter denoting the destination region or district, the latter system was adopted by the WR from 1960. Of course only the last three characters were displayed on pass trains, as discussed above.

 

One other quirk was that local freight trains, certainly in the Birmingham District, used the second digit "5" and the last two as a destination number, as in "9554" a local trip to Stourbridge Junction. Under the later system this would be "9A04", with "A04" the destination code for Stourbridge Jn. I don't know of any examples of freight trains carrying these numbers until diesels came along though.

 

Regards

Mike

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Hello Jon

 

A very small point (and I mean very small!) that you might like to consider is that some of the characters had the owning shed painted at the bottom left of the plate (in white, I guess). Certainly, Old Oak Common had some marked, but I can't say whether any other sheds did so.

 

A look at the following will show you how small:

1. The Power of The Kings, page 41 lower pic. See under the figure '4'. Also see page 53, middle pic. Under all three characters.

2. The Power of The Castles, page 40 lower pic. See under first and third character.

 

I know there is a very clear photo taken at Exeter Central (at a time when some WR trains were being diverted) - but I can't think where it is at present.

 

Brian

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The WR introduced 4 character train reporting numbers from (I think) the June 1959 WTT (possibly Winter 58?), these were a hybrid of the later alpha-numeric system, with the first digit the train class; ie 1 - express pass, 2 - stopping pass etc; the second a destination number, as per Mike's earlier list, then an individual two digit train number.

 

As, during 1959, agreement was reached on an all-region system based on this but with a letter denoting the destination region or district, the latter system was adopted by the WR from 1960. Of course only the last three characters were displayed on pass trains, as discussed above.

 

One other quirk was that local freight trains, certainly in the Birmingham District, used the second digit "5" and the last two as a destination number, as in "9554" a local trip to Stourbridge Junction. Under the later system this would be "9A04", with "A04" the destination code for Stourbridge Jn. I don't know of any examples of freight trains carrying these numbers until diesels came along though.

 

Regards

Mike

All the document dates point to June 1960 as the date of introduction on the WR including the explanatory leaflet and the amendment to the Appendix.  Although some dmus were fitted with 4 character headcode boxes earlier than 1960 they were still using the old letter code for train class and the other digits were left blank.  Timetable numbers were possibly altered but nothing was carried until the new Classifications were introduced.

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The document which Brian has posted is interesting for reasons other than to illustrate the point about train numbering.  Note if you will the references to dmu formations where applicable.  In addition to the 3-car sets, be they suburban or Cross-Country, there are two references to a 4-car diesel and one to a 2-car.  It seems that the needs of the Bristol area were too complex for three-car sets to suffice and a 4th car was found by liberating the trailer from a 3-car set.  Before anyone mentions the three Hawksworth trailers converted to run with Cross-Country sets, these were not introduced until September 1961.

 

There are also references to "diesel" with no number of cars specified.  These would be the ex-GWR type.

 

Apologies for the digression.

 

Chris 

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Very interesting Brian - clearly some sort of in-between system (possibly devised in Bristol?) which sits somewhere between the old and the new.  The 'General Guide to The Four-Character Train Identification System' issued by the WR in June 1960 stated 'These new arrangements will be introduced concurrently with the commencement of the Summer train service on 13th June 1960, from which date four-character numbers will be incorporated into the Working Timetables, Supplementary Notices and other train working instructions to the exclusion of all other forms of train numbering.  

 

Oddly there seem to have been no alterations to the General Appendix at that date going by my copy, which as far as I know is fully amended, and the new classifications seemingly first appeared in the newly created Regional Appendix applicable from 1 October - however the explanatory note, dated August, for that publication included the comment  'A combined table appears on page 82 of the Regional Appendix which shews the new four-character train classification and identification indications in relation to the headcodes indicated by headlamps'  I read this as indicating that some sort of operational Notice might have been issued earlier (presumably in May/June in the Periodical Operating Notice?).

 

Regrettably I have no supplements to the GWR signalling Regulations after 1947 so I don't know if they were amended prior to the issue of the new Regulations which came into effect from 1 October 1960 and which show both the old cassification letter and the new numeric classification.  Unfortunately when  I pasted in the amendments into my own book I cut the dates off the bottom but from a spare set of amendments I know that the reference to alpha classifications was deleted from the WR Block Regulations in the first supplement dated November 1962.  

 

Train classifications in the other Regions' signalling regulations were altered to numeric in the first supplement to those books which came into effect on 18 June 1962 which suggests - unless altered earlier by notice - that the other Regions fell into line with the new system from that date; the classification of trains in the General Appendix was amended, by Supplement No.1, from the same date.

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Hello Mike

 

I have a photo of a 750xx-hauled train on the S&D running with reporting number '1249' - the only one I have ever seen with a 4-figure display. Sadly, I can't find it or the date for the moment. That rep number doesn't show up in the BTM book, though.

 

Interestingly, ECS was shown as 3xxx, whereas Parcels Trains per se were shown as 'Pxxx'.

 

Perhaps we ought to start a new thread??

 

Brian

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Hello Mike

 

I have a photo of a 750xx-hauled train on the S&D running with reporting number '1249' - the only one I have ever seen with a 4-figure display. Sadly, I can't find it or the date for the moment. That rep number doesn't show up in the BTM book, though.

 

Interestingly, ECS was shown as 3xxx, whereas Parcels Trains per se were shown as 'Pxxx'.

 

Perhaps we ought to start a new thread??

 

Brian

Brian, 

 

Is it a relatively small number on a small board on the top lamp bracket?  If so it is an LM style number and could be in an LMR series,  such boards being common on that Region.

There are a number of oddities in the Bristol book you kindly shared with us - the final two digits don't work in the correct way for four-character final digits and in some cases seem to bear more resemblance to the old 3 digit WR train numbering method while in others they have not been applied correctly (e.g. certain e.c.s. train) while if the first digit represents the class of train (a reasonable assumption I think) they area  long way ahead of the real thing.  I wonder if what was going on was some sort of experimental application before things were finalised?

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Hello Mike

 

I have now found the date of the photo - Saturday 4 July 1959.

 

It does indeed look similar to one of the small LMR-style boards but there is something a bit odd about it. Sadly, the reproduction in the printed magazine does not permit detailed scrutiny.

 

It is being carried over the (driver's) right hand buffer beam as opposed to under the chimney. S&D passenger trains were 'one lamp under chimney/one lamp over driver's left-hand buffer beam' (therefore precluding its use on the top).

 

There is an argument that says it could be an LMR train running in more than one portion - but the shadows cast across the platform suggest to me that the train is the 3.40pm Up (5.54pm Evercreech Junction). I have spoken with many ex-S&D personnel, but not a single one can recall any discussion or involvement with 'trials' of the 4-digit system.

 

Although this photo was on the front cover of the SDRT Bulletin in 1981, I was the first person in S&D circles to note its oddity just a couple of years ago.

 

I have just found an extract from the Working Timetable (WTT) for the Bristol Division dated 15.9.58-14.6.59. That shows the 12.40am Leicester-Bath Green Park Parcels as P477. The Up Perishables 8.25pm Templecombe-Derby was P484

 

The various S&D Milk trains were 3238, 3240 and 3242 in one direction and 3218, 3219 and 3220 in the other.

 

Clearly, something was 'going on' even then!

 

All in all, a real mystery!

 

Brian

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Hello Mike

 

I have now found the date of the photo - Saturday 4 July 1959.

 

It does indeed look similar to one of the small LMR-style boards but there is something a bit odd about it. Sadly, the reproduction in the printed magazine does not permit detailed scrutiny.

 

It is being carried over the (driver's) right hand buffer beam as opposed to under the chimney. S&D passenger trains were 'one lamp under chimney/one lamp over driver's left-hand buffer beam' (therefore precluding its use on the top).

 

There is an argument that says it could be an LMR train running in more than one portion - but the shadows cast across the platform suggest to me that the train is the 3.40pm Up (5.54pm Evercreech Junction). I have spoken with many ex-S&D personnel, but not a single one can recall any discussion or involvement with 'trials' of the 4-digit system.

 

Although this photo was on the front cover of the SDRT Bulletin in 1981, I was the first person in S&D circles to note its oddity just a couple of years ago.

 

I have just found an extract from the Working Timetable (WTT) for the Bristol Division dated 15.9.58-14.6.59. That shows the 12.40am Leicester-Bath Green Park Parcels as P477. The Up Perishables 8.25pm Templecombe-Derby was P484

 

The various S&D Milk trains were 3238, 3240 and 3242 in one direction and 3218, 3219 and 3220 in the other.

 

Clearly, something was 'going on' even then!

 

All in all, a real mystery!

 

Brian

Very interesting Brian and - as an aside - also from the era before the S&DJtR was changed over to using standard headlamp codes.

 

The numbering system seems to be different from the four-character system in a number of ways, for example its use of even numbers in both directions whereas the four-character system normally used odds in one direction and evens in the other for individual train numbers.  I occasionally see a former colleague who worked in one of the Bristol control offices although I'm not sure it if would have been that far back but he might recall these numbers - just have to trust to luck that he's at the 'old boys' lunch in a couple of months from now.

 

The only other clue might lie in contemporaneous working timetables although it is possible that the numbers were simply used for control or path identification purposes.

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Straying from the WR but related this picture I posted some time ago shows a train at Ilfracombe in August 1960 with the usual top centre disc but also a bottom centre one carrying the number 494. I assume that this was a SR train reporting number. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/60196-the-human-side-of-the-railway/page-24&do=findComment&comment=966836

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Hello Mike and Signal Engineer

 

I have just spoken on the phone with ex-S&D Driver (and later, author) Peter Smith. He has no knowledge of the S&D section having been told to use 'standard' headlamp codes. The only time he used 'standard express code' (one lamp over each buffer) was on the occasion of the last Pines Express, at which time he placed the headboard under the chimney - and that was of his own volition, as he thought it looked good.

 

Peter has just phoned me back and referred me to the 1961 WTT. The words are (typed as they appear in the book):

Standard Head-codes shewn at the top of columns of Through Trains from and to the Southern Region via Templecombe will not be carried between Bath Green Park and Templecombe Junction.

 

He knows that Ivo Peters wrote somewhere that an edict had apparently been issued at some time to use standard codes, but Peter was never challenged by authority and doesn't know of anyone who was. Another one of those 'mystery items'!

 

In respect of the photo, I stand to be corrected, but SR locos often carried their Duty Number pasted onto a disc (as opposed to/or in addition to any Train Reporting Number). By chance, I happen to have set of rosters for summer 1960, and Duty 494 was for a Salisbury loco to work the Saturday 12.26pm Exeter Central-Ilfracombe. I am just waiting to hear from a friend whether 34099 was a Salisbury loco at the time.

 

Brian

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...I have just spoken on the phone with ex-S&D Driver (and later, author) Peter Smith. He has no knowledge of the S&D section having been told to use 'standard' headlamp codes. The only time he used 'standard express code' (one lamp over each buffer) was on the occasion of the last Pines Express, at which time he placed the headboard under the chimney - and that was of his own volition, as he thought it looked good...

That's interesting, Brian. By coincidence, I was just looking at one of Norman Lockett's photos* of that very train approaching Binegar complete with unusual head code and the reporting number 1095. Everything else continued to carry the usual S&D passenger headcode until the end. The only other exceptions that I've noticed being some rail tours from about 1960 onwards.

 

Nick

 

* in The Somerset & Dorset Railway 1935-1966 by Mike Arlett and David Lockett.

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Hello Brian

 

I understand that 34099 moved from Brighton to Salisbury early in 1960. The picture was taken on 6th August 1960, and the train was from Exeter Central to Ilfracombe. We had travelled down from Birmingham on the Walsall - Kingwear train arriving at St Davids just before 12.30 so that all fits together. I remember having to run across the bridge to catch the Ilfracombe train.

 

Eric

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Hello Mike and Signal Engineer

 

I have just spoken on the phone with ex-S&D Driver (and later, author) Peter Smith. He has no knowledge of the S&D section having been told to use 'standard' headlamp codes. The only time he used 'standard express code' (one lamp over each buffer) was on the occasion of the last Pines Express, at which time he placed the headboard under the chimney - and that was of his own volition, as he thought it looked good.

 

Peter has just phoned me back and referred me to the 1961 WTT. The words are (typed as they appear in the book):

Standard Head-codes shewn at the top of columns of Through Trains from and to the Southern Region via Templecombe will not be carried between Bath Green Park and Templecombe Junction.

 

He knows that Ivo Peters wrote somewhere that an edict had apparently been issued at some time to use standard codes, but Peter was never challenged by authority and doesn't know of anyone who was. Another one of those 'mystery items'!

 

In respect of the photo, I stand to be corrected, but SR locos often carried their Duty Number pasted onto a disc (as opposed to/or in addition to any Train Reporting Number). By chance, I happen to have set of rosters for summer 1960, and Duty 494 was for a Salisbury loco to work the Saturday 12.26pm Exeter Central-Ilfracombe. I am just waiting to hear from a friend whether 34099 was a Salisbury loco at the time.

 

Brian

A slight but interesting divergence Brian - Colonel H.C.B. Rogers book 'Riddles and the 9Fs' has several pictures of 9Fs on the S&D two of which are claimed to be of the last 'Up' and 'Down' workings of the 'Pines Express' by two different photographers (one of whom was Ivo Peters) and in both cases the engine - 92220 - was indeed carrying 'standard' Class 1 headlamps.  As the (WR pattern) lamps are exactly the same in both pictures I suspect they spent a day or two in that position on the engine.  Oddly the book contains another picture of 92220 on, according to the caption, a Bournemouth - Bath passenger train one month earlier and the loco is carrying lamps for an S&DJtR freight train plus an SR pattern disc with the four-character headcode!

 

Incidentally the book contains 8 other pictures of 9Fs working S&DJtR passenger trains between 1960 and '62 and in every case the engines are lamped for freights - so I can but assume that among its other peculiarities 'the Darset' lamped their trains the opposite way round from the normal practice of describing them, i.e. they lamped them as seen from the cab looking forwards instead of the usual practice of lamping them as seen as the engine approached  (thus the bottom lamp was over the right hand buffer instead of the left hand buffer).

 

BTW 34099 was a Brighton engine early in 1960 but could well have moved subsequently - it was at Salisbury at the beginning of 1963.

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Hello Nick, Eric and Mike

 

You can find various pictures of S&D trains with 'express' headcode shown - there are some of the Bailey Gate Milk train, and there is one of an 8F 2-8-0 on coal empties. However, the latter was the very last such train down the line, and the lamps do look very clean - so someone was marking the occasion! 

 

Although the train reporting number for the Pines was 1O95, Peter and Donald Beale always used to refer to it as 'the ten-ninety-five'. They hadn't 'twigged' that what they thought was a figure 'zero' was actually a capital letter 'O'. Peter was quite amazed when we spoke about this just a few years ago! (Coming from the printing and typographical industry as I do, the distinction between a capital ‘O’ and a figure ‘zero’ is vital – but to Peter and Donald, it mattered not a jot.)

 

I have just had it confirmed to me by the Steam Railway Research Society (SRRS) that 34099 was, indeed, a Salisbury loco in August 1960.

 

The WTTs described the S&D lamps as:

Passenger Trains: A white light at the foot of the chimney and a white light over the left-hand buffer.

Light Engines: A white light at the foot of the chimney.

Freight Trains: A white light at the foot of the chimney and a white light over the right-hand buffer.

 

We seem to be going right off Jon's original topic posting here! To come back to it for a moment, if he models Swindon Works Holiday Trains of the 1950s, it seems they ran with their own number system. One I have seen was '40', with the number painted black on an approximately 2ft square white board, and hung somehow from the chimney lamp bracket.

 

See page 128, The Day of the Holiday Express, by Richard Woodley

 

Brian

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Thanks, Brian, the comment about the reporting number makes sense, though I'd always assumed it to be a zero :O It fits better with others like 2B92 on the 9.03 Bristol-Bournemouth on 8/8/62 and Bank Holiday excursions like 1X06 seen in the same book.

 

The rest of this post is a bit out of sequence as I tried to post it when the server went down:

...Incidentally the book contains 8 other pictures of 9Fs working S&DJtR passenger trains between 1960 and '62 and in every case the engines are lamped for freights - so I can but assume that among its other peculiarities 'the Darset' lamped their trains the opposite way round from the normal practice of describing them, i.e. they lamped them as seen from the cab looking forwards instead of the usual practice of lamping them as seen as the engine approached  (thus the bottom lamp was over the right hand buffer instead of the left hand buffer)....

It goes back a long way, Mike. The Somerset & Dorset simply distinguished between passenger and freight (and light engines). One lamp under the chimney with either one on the left (looking from the front) buffer beam for freight or one on the right for passenger. This was in use at least from the late 1890s, maybe earlier, so predates any of the attempts at unifying headcodes. There are, however, photos from the 1870s showing locos with one lamp over each buffer.

 

Nick

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Fox do an etched triple panel in 4mm along with the transfers in both 4mm & 7mm. I recently commissioned Pete Harvey to do the triple panel in 7mm. JLTRT and Pete Harvey do the reporting frame.

My 7mm ones,

post-5983-0-14816800-1380473232_thumb.jpg

I've searched pictures for my chosen period and matched them to the trains,

post-5983-0-05164900-1380473287_thumb.jpg

Pete Harvey mounting panel,

post-5983-0-90250900-1380473330_thumb.jpg

JLTRT mounting bracket on the floor on Canton,

post-5983-0-48099600-1380473395_thumb.jpg

The frames and panels are available from Pete Harvey.

The prototype,

post-5983-0-55194800-1380473459.jpg

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The document which Brian has posted is interesting for reasons other than to illustrate the point about train numbering.  Note if you will the references to dmu formations where applicable.  In addition to the 3-car sets, be they suburban or Cross-Country, there are two references to a 4-car diesel and one to a 2-car.  It seems that the needs of the Bristol area were too complex for three-car sets to suffice and a 4th car was found by liberating the trailer from a 3-car set.  Before anyone mentions the three Hawksworth trailers converted to run with Cross-Country sets, these were not introduced until September 1961.

 

There are also references to "diesel" with no number of cars specified.  These would be the ex-GWR type.

 

Apologies for the digression.

 

Chris 

While you are most probably right about the 2 and 4 car sets, don't forget those WR specialities, the Gloucester (122) and Pressed Steel (121) single units, and the loose Driving Trailers that came with them. In the WR Birmingham area at least, a 4 car train would normally be a 3 car set plus a single unit, and a 2 car train a single unit plus driving trailer.

To force this back on topic, the Gloucester units had a 2 character headcode display. On other regions there was an elaborate series of route codes for their 2-character displays. What codes did the WR use?

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apols if this has been remarked on already, but just looked at the 1961 "abc british railways headcodes"

 

re: the headcode frames, it mentions the 3-figure train numbers used previously then says that these have now been replaced by the last 3 characters of the [new] 'standard' 4-character headcodes. however, as the train classification (1st) number is not carried this will be shown by using the relevant lamp headcode in addition to the numerical one. 

 

did this happen in practice, or was it one/other?

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apols if this has been remarked on already, but just looked at the 1961 "abc british railways headcodes"

 

re: the headcode frames, it mentions the 3-figure train numbers used previously then says that these have now been replaced by the last 3 characters of the [new] 'standard' 4-character headcodes. however, as the train classification (1st) number is not carried this will be shown by using the relevant lamp headcode in addition to the numerical one. 

 

did this happen in practice, or was it one/other?

Yes, Paddington - Birkenhead train at Snow Hill c1962

post-9767-0-59113100-1380484781.jpg

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While you are most probably right about the 2 and 4 car sets, don't forget those WR specialities, the Gloucester (122) and Pressed Steel (121) single units, and the loose Driving Trailers that came with them. In the WR Birmingham area at least, a 4 car train would normally be a 3 car set plus a single unit, and a 2 car train a single unit plus driving trailer.

Tyseley probably invented pick'n'mix dmu formations but I shall get into even more trouble for digressing if I say any more.  Suffice it to say that Jim S-W and I had an argument about it on here years ago.

 

I believe I'm right in saying that Bristol had no 121s or 122s until late summer 1961 when 55034 and 55035 were put to work on the Portishead branch.  In winter 1959-60 several 122 power cars and driving trailers were used to begin the dieselisation of Paddington suburban services in conjunction with 116 sets borrowed from Tyseley and Cardiff Cathays.to cover for the late arrival of the 117s.  Later on 121 driving trailers were used with 117s to make 4- or 7-car formations.  It does seem as of improvisation was the order of the day! 

 

Almost back on topic, I don't think the WR knew what to do with the 2-character headcode panels on its dmus.  Those that I remember seeing, 50+ years ago, typically displayed B in the left box and a white blank in the right box or just two white blanks.  When Southall's 122s were moved to the West Country in spring 1961 it appears that the blinds were swapped over so that the left box showed 2 and the right box either C (for Plymouth Division) or a white blank.

 

Chris

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