BR(W) Train reporting numbers.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Derby Suburban units at Tyseley were built without 2-character panels. The Bubble cars had them and I have seen a picture of one arriving at Moor St showing B2. I have a picture of a Met-Cam 101 in the Up platform at Leamington showing B in the left box but the right side is half and half between 3 and 4.

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks, Brian, the comment about the reporting number makes sense, though I'd always assumed it to be a zero It fits better with others like 2B92 on the 9.03 Bristol-Bournemouth on 8/8/62 and Bank Holiday excursions like 1X06 seen in the same book.

 

The rest of this post is a bit out of sequence as I tried to post it when the server went down:

It goes back a long way, Mike. The Somerset & Dorset simply distinguished between passenger and freight (and light engines). One lamp under the chimney with either one on the left (looking from the front) buffer beam for freight or one on the right for passenger. This was in use at least from the late 1890s, maybe earlier, so predates any of the attempts at unifying headcodes. There are, however, photos from the 1870s showing locos with one lamp over each buffer.

 

Nick

Sorry we're a bit off track with this one but I think I didn't make myself very clear.  The pictures I was referring to all show S&DJtR passenger trains carrying the S&DJtR freight headcode - i.e. the lower lamp is above the right hand buffer and not the left hand buffer (hence my comment about which way you're looking at the lamps).

 

re Swindon 'trip' specials I understand that the train numbers - which were as Brian has said in their own special series - carried on the coaches although I'm not sure if it was all of them in the train and they corresponded with numbers which passengers were advised of when they received their tickets (possibly the numbers were also on the tickets - not sure on that one).

 

And I reckon Chris is - as usual - right on the money with his comments above about DMUs although the London Division always worked hard to keep its cars in their proper sets and when I was down there in the 1970s Cardiff did the same as it was found (partly by me , officially) that they got into a right mess over maintenance if they didn't.

[buffalo]

Sorry we're a bit off track with this one but I think I didn't make myself very clear.

Sorry, Mike, looks like completely misunderstood you. I blame the medication, my heads been fuzzy all week

 

Nick

[BMacdermott]

I completely forgot that I had the London District WTT for summer 1958. That shows some 'strange numbers' - I tried to tally what I could against the Bristol book, but none match!

 

The only comment I can make is that Down trains to Wolverhampton seem to be even numbers in the 15xx range and Birkenhead in odd numbers in the 15xx range. Up trains seem to be in 8xxx and 9xxx ranges respectively.

 

I have never seen a picture of train with any such numbers (apart from the S&D train mentioned earlier).

 

Brian

[The Stationmaster]

I completely forgot that I had the London District WTT for summer 1958. That shows some 'strange numbers' - I tried to tally what I could against the Bristol book, but none match!

 

The only comment I can make is that Down trains to Wolverhampton seem to be even numbers in the 15xx range and Birkenhead in odd numbers in the 15xx range. Up trains seem to be in 8xxx and 9xxx ranges respectively.

 

I have never seen a picture of train with any such numbers (apart from the S&D train mentioned earlier).

 

Brian

I know nothing at all about them Brian and I'm not sure who might be about from back then who I can ask but I'll see who I can root out at our next 'old boys' lunch.  However I reckon the first digit might refer to the originating District and there is a small mount of tie-in there with the letters introduced under the four-character system (e.g. 8=H. 9= J - because I was not used to avoid confusion with 1).  The 5 for Taunton might not fit that theory but there was at one time a District Office at Taunton although I'm not sure if it was a traffic district.

[chrisf]

This may or may not be a red herring ... 

 

I have the summer 1958 WTT for the Newport District.which shows italicised four-digit numbers in some column headings.  Only Class A trains bound to and from the Birmingham district are concerned - 8554 12 noon Birmingham - Cardiff diesel, 8547 12.25 pm Birmingham - Cardiff diesel, 8568 1.0 pm Birmingham - Cardiff diesel, 7519 Cardiff - Birmingham diesel, 7525 4.47 pm Cardiff - Birmingham diesel.  7511 was the 8.15 am Fridays only Swansea - Newcastle which unlike the other examples I've given was not a dmu.

 

I'm guessing that none of these codes would have been displayed on the train unless someone had supreme faith in paper labels.  Some of the dmus would have been the Inter-City sets which could only display one stencilled letter usually A. The Swindon Cross-Country sets had no provision for headcodes other than electric lights in the same position as oil ones and the Gloucester Cross-Country sets had yet to arrive. 

 

The three-digit reporting numbers carried in the frames hooked to the loco smokebox were at this time still configured with the first digit showing the origin of the train - usually 7 for trains originating in South Wales but there were some odd entries such as the 4.17 pm Cardiff - Birkenhead which was 254 for some reason.  The 4.40 pm Cardiff to Hereford was extended as required to Liverpool and only when it was did it carry the number 257!

 

Clear as mud, n'est-ce pas?

 

Chris

[mikeh]

Going back to my post aboout 4 digit reporting numbers, which seems to have been a little dismissed....

 

Both the Summer 1959 Freight and Pass WTTs for the WR Birmingham district show all trains with 4 digit reporting numbers with the first digit representing the train class. The Chester district Freight book for the same period does likewise.

 

The London Passenger book for Sep 1958 has all Class A, and some Class B and C trains with them, ie the 6.45am Paddington-Reading Parcels was "3042" and the 8.45am Padd-Bristol "The Bristolian" was "1212". The 11.20am Oxford-Snow Hill was "2631". 1st digit in this case corresponds with the later train class numbers.

 

In the timetable preamble it states "Figures inserted in columns immediately below train titles indicate train reporting numbers. Except as indicated numbers are carried on the front of the engines when shown in heavy type but not when shewn in italics".

 

Of the examples only 1212 was in heavy type.

 

No doubt when displaying numbers on the front of engines it was accepted that existing frames would be used and only the last three digits displayed.

 

 

The Birmingham book also listed route codes for ECS trains, ie "3878" was Snow Hill to Queens Head. In the 1960 system this was "3H67".

 

I would surmise that the WR trialled these in Summer 58, introduced them in full in Summer 59 and went to the modified version with a destination letter in 1960.

 

No doubt there is a file referring to this lurking somewhere at TNA

 

Regards

Mike

[BMacdermott]

Hello Mike

 

Thanks for posting #57. It does seem that trials were going on, but I haven't yet found anyone who knows anything about them. It's strange that our two books don't tally. As you say, no doubt there is a file somewhere!

 

Brian

[The Stationmaster]

It would be interesting to see a freight WTT from that time to see what numbers were used in it as it might give a clue as to whether this was just some sort of WTT layout experimentation or whether there was more to it  (the reason for saying that is because the freight letter to number classification change in 1960 was not an exact swop and one Class disappeared completely).  Incidentally the 2nd, 3rd and 4th digits in the example in Post No.57 don't bear any consistent resemblance to the numbering methods, or the alpha sequence of destination areas, adopted in 1960.

 

I've certainly not yet found any evidence at all of any change (from alpha to numeric) to the classification codes in operational use prior to June 1960 and an amendment to the (GWR) General Appendix dated September 1959 states that the indicator should be set to display A, B, or C according to the classification of the train.

[mikeh]

Here are a couple of extracts from the Summer 1959 Birmingham District Freight WTT which will hopefully illustrate the point?

 

 

 

 

One other thought on this topic. At this time there would be a lot of planning going on regarding forthcoming MAS schemes - Snow Hill and Newport spring to mind. Would be interesting to know what the early thinking on train describers for these installations was. Are these early headcodes related to that sort of thinking?

 

Regards

Mike

[The Stationmaster]

The freight codes don't directly translate to the classifications adopted in 1960.

 

The only WR panels with four character train describers commissioned in 1960 were Birmingham Snow Hill in September and Plymouth in November.  In both cases the relevant notices state that the panels were provided from the outset with four-character trains describers but working only within the panel area itself and not to/from adjacent 'boxes  (in fact Snow Hill used the clockwork Tyers' describers from the old 'boxes for the latter purpose).  

 

I never visited Snow Hill panel but I did visit Plymouth a few years after commissioning and it had describers to the standard numeric/alpha/numeric/numeric arrangement and I am as certain as I can be that they were the ones it had from new (or thereabouts) - WR electro-mechanical TDs were not very easy to alter so I'm sure that they were in that state from new.  I don't know the manufacturing lead times for such kit but you can place a fairly safe bet that they had been in the Drawing Office design at least a year before installation, and that would have been at least a month, probably a couple, before commissioning judging by other panels of that type installed in the early 1960s while the construction and wiring of the train describer relay racks would have taken some time as well and would have required drawings to be available in good time to order material such as the special telephone dials and the units themselves.  Incidentally Slough panel (1963) was being used for training purposes a good 2-3 weeks prior to commissioning.

 

I know that the development of the wider area MAS schemes was one of the reasons for developing the four-character system and was very much a WR initiative - hence its early introduction on that Region.

[mikeh]

The freight codes don't directly translate to the classifications adopted in 1960.

 

The only WR panels with four character train describers commissioned in 1960 were Birmingham Snow Hill in September and Plymouth in November.  In both cases the relevant notices state that the panels were provided from the outset with four-character trains describers but working only within the panel area itself and not to/from adjacent 'boxes  (in fact Snow Hill used the clockwork Tyers' describers from the old 'boxes for the latter purpose).  

 

I never visited Snow Hill panel but I did visit Plymouth a few years after commissioning and it had describers to the standard numeric/alpha/numeric/numeric arrangement and I am as certain as I can be that they were the ones it had from new (or thereabouts) - WR electro-mechanical TDs were not very easy to alter so I'm sure that they were in that state from new.  I don't know the manufacturing lead times for such kit but you can place a fairly safe bet that they had been in the Drawing Office design at least a year before installation, and that would have been at least a month, probably a couple, before commissioning judging by other panels of that type installed in the early 1960s while the construction and wiring of the train describer relay racks would have taken some time as well and would have required drawings to be available in good time to order material such as the special telephone dials and the units themselves.  Incidentally Slough panel (1963) was being used for training purposes a good 2-3 weeks prior to commissioning.

 

I know that the development of the wider area MAS schemes was one of the reasons for developing the four-character system and was very much a WR initiative - hence its early introduction on that Region.

Mike

I agree about the manufacturing lead times and indeed detail design (and I was aware of the Tyers units at Snow Hill). The question is when did the concept of these MAS schemes first arise and were the four digit numbers a concept that got overtaken by events - for example when an all region scheme was proposed was it thought that just 9 potential digits for the destination district was not enough? (And yes I am aware that early TDs couldn't handle all 26 letters!)

 

Regards

Mike

[The Stationmaster]

Mike

I agree about the manufacturing lead times and indeed detail design (and I was aware of the Tyers units at Snow Hill). The question is when did the concept of these MAS schemes first arise and were the four digit numbers a concept that got overtaken by events - for example when an all region scheme was proposed was it thought that just 9 potential digits for the destination district was not enough? (And yes I am aware that early TDs couldn't handle all 26 letters!)

 

Regards

Mike

Judging by the dates of commissioning the first stages of design work would probably have begun around late 1958 although developing the idea of the large area schemes undoubtedly came later - for example Snow Hill had little room to expand although Plymouth had plenty.  The first 'wide area' scheme was Reading - Hayes which began commissioning in 1961although physical ground work had started in the previous year which means design work would have started at least in 1959.

 

All the WR panel boxes used standard circuitry (Reading E10,000 series drawings) although they were free wired but alas I think all the office copy original drawings have now been revised - that was going on about 10 years back in the office I worked in during my consultancy days but dated originals might survive.  I know from what engineers have told me that the train describer idea was a bit behind the development of everything else but clearly at some point operators began to realise that Signalmen would need better information about trains in large control areas so the system probably began to develop then.

 

I think the telephone dial up system with electro-mechanical TDs was chosen because it used readily available technology (even if the describers weren't very reliable in use - descriptions had a tendency to 'jump' as they progressed from berth to berth!) and the letters available on describers in fact varied a bit between 'boxes when newly installed plus as experience grew so some letters were used to represent something completely different - but folk new the way they were working so that didn't matter much until the numbering system began to change (but then teh describers were being updated anyway of course).

[TheSignalEngineer]

M E Leach presented a very comprehensive paper on the development of train describers to the Institution of Railway Signal Engineers on 2nd March 1960. See http://irse.org.au/images/stories/IRSE_Proceedings/Proceedings/IRSE%20Proceedings%201960.pdf pages 94-117.

 

He describes the development of the 4-character system starting on the WR in the Winter timetable of 1958 on pages 95-98.

 

[mikeh]

M E Leach presented a very comprehensive paper on the development of train describers to the Institution of Railway Signal Engineers on 2nd March 1960. See http://irse.org.au/images/stories/IRSE_Proceedings/Proceedings/IRSE Proceedings 1960.pdf pages 94-117.

 

He describes the development of the 4-character system starting on the WR in the Winter timetable of 1958 on pages 95-98.

Thanks Eric, that is most informative and has answered a few questions I think.

 

A useful archive as well - thanks for posting

 

Regards

Mike

[TheSignalEngineer]

The IRSE Australian Section website has copies of all papers presented between 1913 and 2007. See this page for links and the index for the years 1913-2001 http://irse.org.au/index.php/en/knowledge/irse-proceedings

[Pobrien]

Two photos of unusual Western Train Reporting Numbers

 

On Jubilee 45685 Barfleur at Temple Meads 1963

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bristolsteam/10361571063/

 

A Western Region Hall with a 4 character train reporting number

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bristolsteam/10361570493/

[The Stationmaster]

Two photos of unusual Western Train Reporting Numbers

 

On Jubilee 45685 Barfleur at Temple Meads 1963

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bristolsteam/10361571063/

 

A Western Region Hall with a 4 character train reporting number

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bristolsteam/10361570493/

Definitely different!  I find the second one with amusing as it twice tells us it's a Class 1 train but then uses a little label to get the train number in - I wonder if they were short of a full size nought so decided to get creative as a way round it?

[70021 Morning Star]

.
An interesting discussion. Now it's time for a Test...
 
• On what date?
 
• And what destination?
 
The clue is in the Locomotive Headboard.
 

 
 
Answers on a postcard,
Rick

[chrisf]

Postcard not available. Date between beginning of winter 58-59 timetable and end of winter 59-60 timetable when '0' indicated a London-bound train.  Location possibly Iver troughs.  Photographer not known but should be credited ...

 

Chris

[The Stationmaster]

Postcard not available. Date between beginning of winter 58-59 timetable and end of winter 59-60 timetable when '0' indicated a London-bound train.  Location possibly Iver troughs.  Photographer not known but should be credited ...

 

Chris

I think the location might be Goring troughs but unusually taken from the north side (I think they were the only location on that route at that time which had troughs on all 4 roads).  BTW 'Iver' seems to be a typo.

[5BarVT]

The freight codes don't directly translate to the classifications adopted in 1960.

 

The only WR panels with four character train describers commissioned in 1960 were Birmingham Snow Hill in September and Plymouth in November.  In both cases the relevant notices state that the panels were provided from the outset with four-character trains describers but working only within the panel area itself and not to/from adjacent 'boxes  (in fact Snow Hill used the clockwork Tyers' describers from the old 'boxes for the latter purpose).  

 

I never visited Snow Hill panel but I did visit Plymouth a few years after commissioning and it had describers to the standard numeric/alpha/numeric/numeric arrangement and I am as certain as I can be that they were the ones it had from new (or thereabouts) - WR electro-mechanical TDs were not very easy to alter so I'm sure that they were in that state from new.  I don't know the manufacturing lead times for such kit but you can place a fairly safe bet that they had been in the Drawing Office design at least a year before installation, and that would have been at least a month, probably a couple, before commissioning judging by other panels of that type installed in the early 1960s while the construction and wiring of the train describer relay racks would have taken some time as well and would have required drawings to be available in good time to order material such as the special telephone dials and the units themselves.  Incidentally Slough panel (1963) was being used for training purposes a good 2-3 weeks prior to commissioning.

 

I know that the development of the wider area MAS schemes was one of the reasons for developing the four-character system and was very much a WR initiative - hence its early introduction on that Region.

I only visited Snow Hill when it was a car park but from somewhere I have acquired a paper copy of the Locking Sketch (signalling plan) showing the disconnections for taking the high numbered island out of use and concentrating all traffic on the low numbered island. The original dates of the drawing are still present showing that the signalling layout design was completed in the summer of 1957 (drawn 12-6-57, approved 27-6-57). Detailed design would have started shortly after that.

 

Paul.

[70021 Morning Star]

To save other modellers getting headaches, I've spent a few hours looking at period photographs to see what documentary evidence is available on the Internet. Later, I'll trawl through my books to add more detail. So far, assuming the photographic credits are correct, I've found the following: 
 
RED DRAGON
066 (U) 1956
720 (U) 17/7/1958
031 (U) 28/5/1960
A35 (U) 2/8/1960 & 10/9/1960
F68 (D) 16/9/1960
----------------
A32 (U) Recent (Suspect)
173       Recent (Suspect)

CAPITALS UNITED EXPRESS
171       18/4/1957
129       18/4/1957
721 (U)  1958 Ed. Chaplin (see below)
175 (D)  1958 Ed. Chaplin         "
017 (U) 1958-1960 timetables. See Chrisf's input, above. *
F55 (D) 1958, 28-29/6/1960**, 1/7/1960**, 17/8/1961***
A13 (U) 16/8/1961
----------------
714        Recent (Suspect)
724        Painting
 
Please feel free to add more detail, so simpletons (like me), can use appropriate numbers on their models.
 
Meanwhile, Ed Chaplin is compiling a comprehensive list of train reporting numbers, by year and timetable. See http://www.davidheyscollection.com/page23.htm
 
Thanks,
Rick
_______________
* sorry, Chris, the picture was something I'd filched, then lost the credits. I'll endeavour to find appropriate accreditation.
** dates of Evening Star's three famous Paddington runs. 
*** predicating from Chrisf's input, I assume that F55 is the 'down' compliment of the 'up' 017, from the beginning of winter 58-59 timetable and end of winter 59-60 timetable; and that it's O-oscar rather than 0-zero (using O and F)?

[70021 Morning Star]

.

EVERYTHING YOU EVER WANTED TO KNOW ABOUT BR(WR) TRAIN REPORTING NUMBERS & LOCOMOTIVE HEADBOARDS

 

Ed Chaplin is compiling comprehensive lists of train reporting numbers, by year and timetable, as well as making a fantastic job of telling the whole story -- with loads of illustrations -- on the David Hey website.

 

See http://www.davidheyscollection.com/page23.htm

 

Fantastic job, Ed. !!

 

 

Rick

[chrisf]

*** predicating from Chrisf's input, I assume that F55 is the 'down' compliment of the 'up' 017, from the beginning of winter 58-59 timetable and end of winter 59-60 timetable; and that it's O-oscar rather than 0-zero (using O and F)?

 

No. To clarify (?), letter O-oscar denoted trains bound for the Southern Region from June 1960 on.  The loco on the troughs carries 0-zero, showing that its destination is London.  F55 would not have been seen before June 1960, when London bound expresses carried A-whatever.  Before winter 58-59 numbers indicated the point of origin, so 1xx was for trains leaving London and 7xx for trains leaving South Wales.

 

Chris