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I have just looked at an 1898 OS map that shows no turntables at all! But as we know, OS maps can not be relied upon to be up to date.

 

But this thread piqued my interest and I "followed" the line down to New Mills. I had no idea that this was such a spectacular location. Cries out to be modelled, whatever the era.

 

If that's the 6 inch map, the publication year is 1898, but the revision date is 1896, but the original survey was 1871.

 

The 1898 map is the one I've been using.

 

New Mills is spectacular.

 

The ultimate fantasy layout to for me is New Mills to Romiley (the reason for going on to Romiley is that, I want to go as far as the viaduct/aqueduct anyway, and Romiley station done in 'bitsa' format makes a goo scenic break!). 

 

New Mills, including a model depicting the 1880s:

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post-25673-0-97830200-1523032366_thumb.jpg

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Barry Norman drew up a plan in MRJ 99 and made a very good case for it

 

I'd forgotten that - an MRJ with lots of Midland content; those were the days!

 

And Teaky, his plan is viewed from the goods yard side. Just 12ft, with the bridges as scenic breaks.

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Well, we have chaps here who could tell us precisely when the brown and grey came in.

 

Guessing 1899, year of the London Extension.

 

Further and better particulars are hereby requested ... 

1898 to 1907

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Very interesting post Edwardian. Throughly enjoyed reading it.

 

Regards,

 

Nick.

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Barry Norman drew up a plan in MRJ 99 and made a very good case for it

 

Thank you, I shall have to track down a copy.

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1898 to 1907

 

Perfect!  I am sure with c.1900 we could get away with a smattering of coaches in the new livery, yet still see some MS&LR locomotives in their pre 1897 GC livery.

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What is the viaduct being constructed lower left for ?

 

post-25673-0-02961300-1523032054.jpg

 

Brit15

Edited by APOLLO
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What is the viaduct being constructed lower left for ?

 

post-25673-0-02961300-1523032054.jpg

 

Brit15

 

 

It would appear to be a road bridge, carrying Union Road and ultimately linking New Mills with Newtown, but perhaps someone familiar with the locus in quo can confirm.

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Edited by Edwardian
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Thanks Edwardian, indeed it is.  I thought (naturally) a proposed but never built railway !!!

 

Brit15

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Thanks Edwardian, indeed it is.  I thought (naturally) a proposed but never built railway !!!

 

Brit15

 

I had the same thought!  But the road over the gorge is there on the 1896 map.

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According to Dow, the MSLR/GCR brown and French grey livery was approved in August 1896 but of course there would have been a gradual change. Late in 1903 the livery was changed from brown and grey to brown and cream, which lasted until teak livery was adopted around 1907/8. I don't know if a firm date for this change hard been established but I haven't seen one.

 

You can tell the difference in many b&w photos as the brown and cream has the panels with dark coloured beading but the brown and grey has the grey all along the upper part and the mouldings are the same colour as the panels, just lined out either side.

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The Sheffield & Midland Joint Railway

 

Marple was a busy station on a line built by a joint committee formed by the Midland Railway and the Manchester Sheffield & Lincolnshire Railway.

 

The co-operation came about as a result of the Midland’s push to reach Manchester in the face of opposition by the London & North Western Railway, and the MS&LR’s design to extend south of Manchester, a move opposed by the Great Northern Railway.

 

The route opened in 1867, and originally ran from Manchester via Ashburys, Guide Bridge and Hyde Junction.  A more direct route was taken from 1875, via Reddish.  All routes converged to the north of Romiley, and the section with which I am concerned – Romiley, Marple, Strines, New Mills – featured throughout.

 

We've so far not mentioned the "dog-cart diplomacy" - the incident in 1861 recorded by F.S. Williams*, when Samuel Beale (MR Chairman), William Hutchinson (Deputy Chairman), and James Allport (General Manager) were out prospecting the land Manchester-wards from Buxton. Driving down a narrow lane, they met another dog-cart coming the other way, carrying a director and two officers of the MS&LR (names not recorded), out looking at routes into the Peak. The rest, as they say, is history.

 

*I confess I'm going off the account in Bill Hudson's Through Limestone Hills (OPC, 1989).

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There's also this lovely structure just across the road and up the hill from the station entrance on Brabyns Brow.  Nothing to do with the railway of course.

attachicon.gifmarple warehouse.jpg

But the picture was of course taken from the site of a "Railway". A tramway was laid to get stone from the top section of the Peak Forest Canal to the lower section at Marple Wharf during the building of the locks. There is still evidence of where the rails crossed the site in the stonework at the entrance to Lock 10 in the picture.

Edited by TheSignalEngineer

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It would appear to be a road bridge, carrying Union Road and ultimately linking New Mills with Newtown, but perhaps someone familiar with the locus in quo can confirm.

The building of a road bridge across the Torrs was agreed in 1882 and opened in 1884. It would look from the accounts at the time that the opening was celebrated by a marathon pub crawl around the town.

Some information on the various bridges in New Mills here - http://www.stevelewis.me.uk/page26.php

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I'd forgotten that - an MRJ with lots of Midland content; those were the days!

 

And Teaky, his plan is viewed from the goods yard side. Just 12ft, with the bridges as scenic breaks.

I'd forgotten that too but then it is the Christmas 1997 edition.  I have just dug out my copy.  Nice plan but it is a pity Barry didn't do a 'Petherick' and sit the railway in the landscape.  (That wasn't the point of the article though.)

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Thank you, I shall have to track down a copy.

Judging by what you appear to know already, I'm not sure it would provide you with additional information.  He does suggest "A more serious student of this line would be wise to read in British Railway Journal No. 53 a very interesting article by Warwick Burton." so perhaps that would be worth tracking down.

 

A quick search brings up the following but there may well be other suppliers: http://titfield.co.uk/Wild-Swan/BRJ-Journal.htm

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Judging by what you appear to know already, I'm not sure it would provide you with additional information.  He does suggest "A more serious student of this line would be wise to read in British Railway Journal No. 53 a very interesting article by Warwick Burton." so perhaps that would be worth tracking down.

 

A quick search brings up the following but there may well be other suppliers: http://titfield.co.uk/Wild-Swan/BRJ-Journal.htm

 

Barry Norman's plan follows the actual station very closely. James now has a copy of the BRJ article.

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This fairly extensive web history was done, if my memory is working, by the same Warwick Burton, who went to school with my friend who is working on his EM gauge layout of the station.

 

http://www.marple-uk.com/railways/c01_01.htm

 

He did produce a book on the line too.

 

I do like the idea of a station with a "knob up" signal box!

Edited by t-b-g

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This fairly extensive web history was done, if my memory is working, by the same Warwick Burton, who went to school with my friend who is working on his EM gauge layout of the station.

 

http://www.marple-uk.com/railways/c01_01.htm

 

He did produce a book on the line too.

 

I do like the idea of a station with a "knob up" signal box!

 

Well, he has a very tasteful page header.

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As can be seen on the map above, there was once a canal wharf at Marple Wharf Junction. My understanding is that stone traffic was worked to here and transshipped into barges. Who did the railway working I am less sure. It would have ended quite early in railway history. The canal was the property of the Great Central, as was the Macclesfield Canal which branched off in Marple. 

 

Before I forget, you should not underestimate the very substantial Belle Vue excursion traffic. I think that on this line most of it would have been Midland from - er - the Midlands. This was still a big deal when I was a kid, and it would have been an even bigger deal back then.

 

Coach liveries - my bet is that a lot of the ancient MS&L stock would have long remained in its original "teak", and I would not be that surprised if after 1908 it was simply painted in some suitable brown shade, with maybe a whiff of scumbling. The chief reason for abandoning the brown and cream livery was that (as on the GW) the light panels got mucky, and more importantly, looked mucky. However, another factor was that paint did not always "take" well on a base surface of varnished wood, so I am told. I suppose this related to preparation.

 

The dirty condition of some GC coaches got to Board level on at least one occasion, so these issues were taken very seriously by the top brass. 

Edited by Poggy1165
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It is worth remembering that in the early years of the GC Dukinfield Carriage and Wagon Works did not exist, and everything in that line had to be done in an incredibly cramped space at Gorton or be put to outside contract.

 

Obviously, priority would be given to express passenger stock. The four and six wheelers used on the Manchester locals would almost certainly be a low priority for any repainting work.

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It is worth remembering that in the early years of the GC Dukinfield Carriage and Wagon Works did not exist, and everything in that line had to be done in an incredibly cramped space at Gorton or be put to outside contract.

 

Obviously, priority would be given to express passenger stock. The four and six wheelers used on the Manchester locals would almost certainly be a low priority for any repainting work.

 

Opened in 1907, I glean with the aid of the internet. There seems to be a large - and unexploited? - photographic collection held by the National Archives.

 

The very nicely restored tricomposite was built at Gorton, I read, but that was early on - 1876.

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This fairly extensive web history was done, if my memory is working, by the same Warwick Burton, who went to school with my friend who is working on his EM gauge layout of the station.

 

http://www.marple-uk.com/railways/c01_01.htm

 

He did produce a book on the line too.

 

I do like the idea of a station with a "knob up" signal box!

 

Thanks for this link.  I came across a year or so ago and Googling it yesterday didn't produce any results and I assumed it didn't exist anymore.

 

Peterfgf

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Comments on the diagram.

 

It's Tiviot Dale.  There's a thread on RMweb about it too.  It is now a motorway.

 

There's a line missing from Romiley to Marple Rose Hill and on to Higher Poynton.  This doesn't affect the traffic through Marple station itself but it branched off close to where the line towards Manchester crossed the canal just before the aqueduct.  You may find this of interest: http://www.marple-uk.com/railways/c05_01.htm

 

 

The line running through Woodley via Hyde and on to Manchester also passed close to Gorton.  As a major centre of locomotive building and repair this might provide an excuse for some running in turns for recently overhauled locomotives and an explanation for having something out of the ordinary hauling a smaller train.  (There were also wagon and carriage works at Duckinfield though I'm not sure how this helps with a model of Marple.)

 

 

I'm glad you included the aqueduct photograph.  It is an interesting mix of structures: railway, canal and a narrow river below.  The canal has some fancy brickwork (on the Romiley side of the aqueduct) and stonework (on the Marple side) at several points along this stretch including one feature I've always liked where the towpath crosses from one side to another via one of those curved/spiral bridges that avoid the towrope getting tangled but allow the horse to remain hitched.

 

Heading towards New Mills, just after leaving Marple station the line is on the ridge above a series of small lakes which were, and still are, a leisure destination: http://www.mellorarchaeology.org.uk/mellor-mill-1792-1892/roman-lakes.html

The missing line was one reason I posted the RCH diagram.

Peterfgf

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.....

 

Coach liveries - my bet is that a lot of the ancient MS&L stock would have long remained in its original "teak", and I would not be that surprised if after 1908 it was simply painted in some suitable brown shade, with maybe a whiff of scumbling. The chief reason for abandoning the brown and cream livery was that (as on the GW) the light panels got mucky, and more importantly, looked mucky. However, another factor was that paint did not always "take" well on a base surface of varnished wood, so I am told. I suppose this related to preparation.

 

The dirty condition of some GC coaches got to Board level on at least one occasion, so these issues were taken very seriously by the top brass. 

 

Some time ago I came across an Edwardian railway writer - I think it may have been on a website about the F Moore postcards - who was arguing that two-tone liveries were the best for coaching stock because they would show the dirt and require frequent cleaning . His argument was that with light upper panels the traveller could see if the coach was dirty and the railway would be forced to act and clean it, whereas a single dark colour would hide the dirt and allow the vehicle to continue in traffic in a dirty state. In his eyes this was an important feature of passenger comfort - a railway with light upper panels to its coaching stock would be a better line for the traveller

 

To modern eyes a very strange train of thought - but it looks as if it may have been quite common in that period. One wonders just how bad the interiors of the coaching stock on the GER, S&DJR and NLR, or even the SECR, might have been....

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